Fixing Warcraft (Pt. 1)

Been meaning to do this for awhile. Because as we currently handle it, Warcraft just... doesn't make sense.

Faction Leaders
Faction leaders and beings comparable to them (like Arthas, Illidan, etc) are... severely downplayed. Currently, they are listed as "At least Low 7-B, likely 7-B" based on scaling to Siamat's storm.

Who is Siamat, I hear you ask? He's a lieutenant of the wind elementals. Some of the most powerful beings in the verse are scaled to a lesser leader of a side-factio.

Meanwhile, they should, at the very least, scale to 6-C Ragnaros. Why?

Malfurion Stormrage fights Ragnaros alongside the player and his patro.

Additionally, we have several beings of worthy note here. Gul'dan raised volcanic islands from the ocean floor (might have had help, I've only heard of the feat, granted) and Medivh's Beetle, upon death, created an island large enough to wage war across.

There's also the fact that by Myriadofmemes' own admission (currently the person apparently taking care of this verse), Khadgar blasted plates off of Deathwing, a High 6-B. Khadgar would realistically be below several of the scaling characters such as Jaina Proudmoore, who is one of the strongest mages alive and former leader of the Kirin Tor.

Basically, none of it makes sense with how we currently handle it. I'd like it to be fixed.

War craft has been all over the place and is in need of serious work

WeeklyBattles said:

War craft has been all over the place and is in need of serious work

Click to expand...

I know. This is a good place to start, methinks.

@Weekly On the contrary, Warcraft is easily one of the most reasonable franchises on the wiki right now. I'll admit that the calculations for the franchise are slightly out of date however.

@Bambu

We've already discussed most of these things and I have rejected them. But I guess it's better to go over them a second time in a proper CRT, rather then having the info on someone's message wall.

I'll start off with the way you use the term "factions leaders", what it actually means, what it means for VS profiles, and who you apply it to.

You use "faction leaders" in a manner that tries to give the term more importance then it actually holds. You present all of the characters related to the term as being comparable to one another in power, yet for all it's worth no such conclusion can be reached based on it alone. One term that isn't even part of the story, and is instead a term coined by the community. Yes, all of the rulers of the races that comprise the Horde and the Alliance are "leaders", sure. But being kings,queens, generals, chieftains, etc. etc. doesn't make them comparable to one another in raw power, not even in the slightest. You can't scale a bunch of characters unrelated to one another based on a term that groups them together for something entirely different. Simply put, Aysa and the council of the three hammers aren't comparable to Gelbin, who isn't comparable to Velen, who isn't comparable to Malfuriion.

More importantly then any of that is the fact that none of the characters that you listed scale directly to Siamat. Instead, they are scaled to another feat from, of all things, an ex-faction leader. That being Thrall of course.

Even if they were being scaled to the Elemental, the description that you gave about Siamat, "Some of the most powerful beings in the verse are scaled to a lesser leader of a side-factio", would still be incorrect. First of all, the factions leaders don't even register on the radar of most powerful beings. A few of them were, and are, exceptionally powerful, others get taken out by grunts. Also, the importance of a faction to the story, a.k.a "side-factio", doesn't mean anything. All in all, an Elemental is on average much much more powerful then a member of any of the factions comprising the Horde and the Alliance regardless of the importance of their faction. As for Siamat specifically, he was a djinn, one the most powerful types of air elementals. He was also a favored lieutenant of the Air Elemental Lord as well. Just an all-around powerful guy.

It's no wonder that the feats of the most powerful shaman ever, and an ex-faction leader, Thrall compare so well to one of the most powerful air elementals, the very manifestations of the powers that grant Thrall his powers.

When it comes to Ragnaros, it's quite embarrassing, but I'll have to admit that his ratings are in no way concrete, and neither are the rest of the ratings of the Elemental Lords. If there's any part of the franchise it's these profiles that we should look further into. When I first started trying to revamp Warcraft I jumped to far too many conclusions with the feats of the Elemental Lords even though the statements were quite vague. Furthermore, the fight you've presented very clearly shows that Malfurion required aid from other powerful lore characters. We do not provide the full rating for a feat that required multiple individuals to perform.

The same can be said for Gul'dan's island raising feet. In this case however, instead of having the help of two other people, Gul'dan had help from dozens if not hundreds.

As for Medivh, none of the characters mentioned here would scale to him. Medivh who was the most powerful Guardian of Tirisfal ever, more powerful then his mother who could fight an avatar of Sargeras, Medivh who himself was possessed by Sargeras which granted him a tremendous power boos, who casually stomped Gul'dan, who was feared by pre-Sundering Deathwing.

On the topic of Deathwing, I already explained that he's had different stages of power, and that his different forms aren't necessarily comparable to one another. Those being: Neltharion --> Deathwing during the War of the Ancients --> Deathwing during the second war (this is the Deathwing that Khadgar damaged) --> Deathwing after Deepholm (High 6-B spitball is this one) --> Deathwing at the Maelstrom. More importantly, Khadgar managing to seriously damage Deathwing would be an outlier anyways, considering how often he struggled with Gul'dan.

"Most reasonable on the wiki" equates to what exactly?

Coincidentally, the fact that it is you rejecting them means very little. These are to be brought to the wiki at large and to be considered outside of the context of downplaying a verse.

And... what? Two of the faction leaders literally fought each other evenly until one of them poisoned the other. In the trailer of Battle for Azeroth, Sylvannas is battling against Anduin, I believe. So the whole "not comparable no way" is just wrong. They are comparable in the sense that they are among the strongest beings of their respective factions, and those factions have been shown to battle each other evenly for an incredibly long time.

Thrall's thunderstorm. Right. Fine. Doesn't matter. It still ignores other feats.

What. Ragnaros scales to melting a mountain. On baseline, that's 6-C. He scales to Odyn, who lifted the Halls of Valor, and Freya, who created several country sized areas over time. You are not the ruling master of Warcraft and without actual work being put into the verse (which you seem to not be doing), this is where the revisions will start.

Medivh was a Kirin Tor. Jaina was the leader of the Kirin Tor. She scales. You're deliberately making this more complicated than it needs to be. Jaina then scales to faction leaders (considering she couldn't beat them when they destroyed Theramore, for instance).

Same deal for Deathwing, this is made more complicated than it actually is. Prove to me that in each of those stages he actually experienced an immense and noteworthy increase of power or it didn't happen.

You can put whatever value on my input that you want, that's not the point. The point is that you've been told, by a knowledgeable member of the verse, that your grasp on the lore is all over the place. One particular place more so than any other though, fan fiction.

The entire point that I made about the term "faction leader" seems to have flown over your head. Just because Cairne and Garrosh, two warriors, appear to be on the same level as one another doesn't mean that they can go toe to toe with Malfurion of all characters. Sylv and Anduin never fight each other directly in the cinematic. There is a vague promotional art with the two of them fighting, not that it means much in the context of Malfurion. The points is, just because a few characters that have a certain title have fought one another doesn't mean that every single character that is referred to by that particular epithet gets to scale to the strongest character related to the title in question.

Yes it does matter. The premise of your argument was incorrect and had to be corrected. Also, what feats?

Following up on that, I gave it my best shot to try and find a source for your statement that melting mountains is baseline Island level, I really did. Regrettably, I have not found a thing. If you're willing to provide me with a source then that'd be most helpful. I did find this however: A calculation of your own creation on your own wiki, making some interesting claims. First of all, I don't personally remember any statement that says that Ragnaros actually melts any mountains. I do remember a statement with Ragnaros saying that he wants to melt mountains, but that's not exactly the same thing, is it? Furthermore, just because there's some steam allegedly rising from this molten mountain doesn't mean that the whole mountain has been vaporized. After all, we are still talking about a mountain that has melted, correct? Not one that has been vaporized. I'm quite certain that there's a large difference in the energy necessary to melt and vaporize something. Finally, using Everest would be anything but "baseline". If i had to guess, melting a mountain would likely be high-end 7-A.

Yes he does scale to Odyn, who lifted the Halls of Valor? But does that give him a rating of 6-C specifically? Let me guess, the Halls of Valor are island sized, because... you said so. And we already wen't over Freya, she doesn't create any areas, she is responsible for seeding and taking care of most of the biological life on the planet a.k.a flaura and fauna.

This Kirin Tor is yet another great example of what I said about titles and ranks. First however, Medivh was never a part of the Kirin Tor, in fact Guardians have had bad relations with them for ages and Medivh was no exception. Did you mean Khadgar perhaps? He is certainly an important member of the Kirin Tor. But that doesn't mean that Jaina scales to him just for being in the same group. Just like Rhonin didn't scale to Krassus when the two of them were still alive and Rhonin was the leader of the Kirin Tor whilst Krassus was a member of the council of six. It's literally the exact same situation with Khadgar and Jaina. Furthermore, Jaina never encountered any faction leaders during the siege of Theramore besides Baine, whose life she specifically states that she cannot bring herself to take because she still considers him honorable. Oh and, the Horde gets repelled by the Alliance during that fight.

As for Deathwing, what didn't happen? His power boosts? I think we cleared that up before already. [1] [2]. Lastly, "complicated" is not how you spell "accurate," which is what I'm personally going for. Hence the scrutiny, I don't know about you.

I've literally never read or made "fan fiction". What I have read is wikis, scans on threads, etc. And what you've told me. Which is also, coincidentally, all over the place.

They are leaders of factions that are stalemating each other. There's literally no reason to assume they are more or less powerful than one another seeing as none of their powers have caused the faction war between Alliance and Horde to shift conclusively in one direction or another. Other than, of course, playing Mary Mary Miss Contrary.

I got it from this wiki, actually. And... yes, yes it does. If steam rises from a feat, why in gods name would you say "I don't wanna let this feat be calculated correctly, ergo, without any premise, I say only a BIT of this was vaporized, ignore all the steam". That doesn't make sense. Additionally, no. Melting a mountain is a standard feat that has been calc'd on wiki at 6-C, it is part of why Monster Hunter is ranked at 6-C.

And no, I have no idea how big the Halls of Valor are. I know it would be a good feat. I do not know the exact value. Understand that I am trying to find the correct value. Not wank a verse I am rusty with to begin with. I aim to make things right, be they through downgrades or upgrades. Before you say "oh you just make stuff up smh" (which you have been implying), understand that on my time on the wiki I have downgraded my favorite verses. Bloodborne has gone down from a fair amount of the cast being High 4-C to varying between 4-C (a rare few) to 7-C. Because I fixed it. Monster Hunter scaled to an absurd 7-C feat and was promptly downgraded to 8-B.

I do not wank. I am trying to correct things. If you can give me a reason I can accept as to why these characters are Tier 7 when that doesn't make a damnable lick of sense, then I will accept it. Moving on.

I am quite certain Jaina was stated somewhere to be the strongest mage of the Kirin Tor. And of course Rhonin didn't scale to Krassus, he was a dragon, another being entirely. So no, it isn't the exact same thing- Krassus was sent by an organization of higher power, whereas Khadgar is below Jaina.

As for your Deathwing scans... that's two upgrades. What about the others? You list a good amount of upgrades for him over time.

Again, "faction leader" is just a term. As for the state of the war, that's entirely plot related. The faction leaders aren't involved in even a fraction of the battles that take place and decide how the tides of the conflict turn. Even then, Malfurion is shown to be a total badass during the very beginning of the War of Thorns, ******** on the Horde left and right whilst being in his base form the entire time. Not once did he use a single druid form. The point is, the plot induced stupidity of a war between two playable faction does not justify giving ratings to everyone who shares an outside-of-game title with Malfurion.

Since the link that you provided makes no mention of any steam whatsoever can we conclude that the addition of the steam, and by extension the claim of vaporization, is one entirely of your own making? If you were talking about a different source then I'd certainly like to see it. On the topic of Monster Hunter, I'm not familiar with the franchise whatsoever, but I did check it out since you claimed that it was rated as Island level for melting mountains. I checked over most of the 6-C rated profiles and only found claims of mountain vaporization, not melting, which is in line with our established Mountain and Island level requirements. I did however find this accepted calc of Pokemon mountain melting, and, as expected, it is rated in the Mountain level range.

I'd say it, in God's name, exactly because I have a premise, and not the other way around. It is exactly because your claim baselessly discards the premise of the feat, which is that Ragnaros melts mountains, that the question has to be raised in the first place. As I said, the presence of steam isn't a proper reason to suggest total vaporization. I assume that you've seen a shower at least once in your life, correct? Just because some steam can be seen being released doesn't mean that the whole water content will be vaporized. An even better example of that would be a hot spring. Have you ever seen a hot spring release steam? Spoiler alert, the entire spring is not about to evaporate right in front of your eyes. More important then that is the fact that any kind of molten material will release steam when in contact with the air, you can observe any construction site to confirm that. That is because the molten lava is heated up to over a thousand degrees, and upon coming in contact with the air the water vapor almost immediately reaches boiling point and transforms into steam. Not that any of this matters, since no steam seems to have been present anyways.

I'm not exactly sure that I understand what you mean by "good feat." What are you suggesting here? Is it because you've been using it to advocate for an Island level rating for these characters? Is that what makes the feat "good" in your eyes? Personally, I'm of the opinion that feats are rather neutral on their own. They're not really a good or bad thing, except for maybe the few cases where something like a feat could take away from the quality of a story.

I don't know anything about Jaina being more powerful then Khadgar, and I can't really see how anyone who knows anything about these two characters would state that when Khadgar is so much more accomplished then Jaina. When we take into consideration where Khadgar's been and who he's fought then yeah... He comes slightly on top when compared to Jaina (that's sarcasm btw Jaina doesn't hold a candle to Khadgar).

The events of the War of the Ancients aren't relevant to this discussion. The point of showing you these scans again was that there's a difference in power that you're not taking into consideration when trying to scale Khadgar to Deathwing. You're attributing feats accomplished by post-Deepholm (first scan) Deathwing to his state from before that exact Old God empowering, thereby nullifying it's context from to the story entirely. Which again, isn't really that relevant anyway considering how much Khadgar struggles with the likes of Gul'dan.

Links to sustain these claims? That the faction leaders whose factions DO fight each other pretty constantly (and I'm sure I could find more scaling if I bothered to have the game anymore), are somehow not comparable by taking up the exact same role as one another.

I didn't make it up, but a calc can be done for melting mountains nonetheless. Also, speaking as a calc group member, melting stone and vaporizing stone gets you, and I will say this as easily as possible, nigh-indistinguishable results. Coincidentally, on the Pokemon calc, this was said: "I'm pretty hyped up. I did everything I could to not get Tier 6 results while still being reasonable, and even then It's pushing on the boundary." He was trying not to get Tier 6 results, from what I can tell.

Yes, it is. That is wiki standard. A mountain being melted is not, in fact, a shower, surprisingly enough. And that's true, but what YOU suggest is that we arbitrarily suggest how much of the spring is steam rather than saying "oh look, the mountain is gone, steam is here, I wonder what happened". Steam being present in a feat is wiki standard for vaporization, and we're now reaching Xcano levels of downplay.

I'm saying it is a good feat that would yield better results closer to what I am seeing is standard. However, I have no method of reliably calculating the mass aside from assumptions which are good for one's own fun but rather poor for the wiki. Understand I am looking at this from a VS Battles Perspective in the name of fixing a notoriously poorly handled verse.

Again, baseless statements of "well I think Khadgar is stronger".

It is because you made it relevant, by claiming Deathwing has had an absurdly high number of power raises and have only proven two.

Try to stay on topic please. The factions themselves are not relevant to the subject at hand. We are discussing specific characters, not their armies. If you're genuinely in doubt that being a king, queen or a chieftain doesn't make you equivalent to a 10 000 years old, one of a kind master of his arts, unmatched by anyone else in the span of millennia, then you're more then welcome to familiarize yourself with the lives, histories, and achievements of the current and former leaders of the Alliance and the Horde.

You did make it up, there's no further question to be had there. There was no mention of steam even on the previous version of the vswiki page, let alone in any direct quote or feat related to Ragnaros melting any mountains. You have repeatedly failed to produce a source for your claim as well. On the topic of the melt cacl, from what I can tell the mountains that he was hypothesizing were unnecessarily large. Upon swapping the made-up mountains for an actual, real life mountain, that being mount Fuji which is quite sizable at that, the results immediately dropped well below the tier 6 range. Finally, in the same manner that you dismissed a perceived authority that I was apparently showing over this franchise, I will now dismiss your own appeal to authority and state the following: No, melting and vaporization are not even remotely close. One is a direct step-up to the other and is a much more energetic event. In general, you might want to read up on your chemistry.

As you yourself have put it, links or it didn't happen. Heating a substance up is the common core between a shower and a molten mountain. Also, are you genuinely suggesting that you'd calc the entire body of water of a hot spring based on the presence of some steam, despite the fact that there is still water present in the pool (or in the case of the mountain, the molten slag)? I, on the other hand, am suggesting that we do not use vaporization as a method of calcing mountains that have explicitly stated to have melted. And since we're doing ad naseum fallacies now too, links or it didn't happen.

At least you're capable of admitting that you have pre-determined biases towards specific conclusions despite a lack of evidence.

Egh... You do understand that I can say the exact same thing for everything you've said in this thread, right? "Jaina is stronger then Khadgar", "Being a faction leader means you're as strong as Malfurion", "Melting a mountain is 6-C", "Raising the Halls of Valor is closer to what I see being the standard", "Freya carved out several country sized regions" (lack of lore understanding), "There was steam present in the Rag calc" (outright lie), Monster Hunter is 6-C for melting mountains (outright lie) etc. etc..

Try to stay on topic please. The point here is that you're trying to scale Khadgar to post-Deepholm Deathwing when he's only fought pre-Deepholm Deathwing.

I am staying on topic. The factions being unable to defeat one another with faction leaders having evidence of being comparable fighters means it should be enough to assume they are equal unless there is a reason not to do so. Simply saying "Malfurion is stronger than all of the rest of them" means little without actual proof.

I confused melting for vaporizing. It means little as my memory isn't guaranteed to be great from a page version from two years ago. Does it matter? And my source was this wiki. I've shown you that, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. And using that calc as your example is inherently flawed considering the statement of specifically avoiding Tier 6 results.

And yes, they are. Melting and vaporization are relatively close. One second. Melting through heat change and vaporization was barely a 10x difference, or one tier under good conditions and much less otherwise. So yes, perhaps they could be 7-A/High 7-A, but that doesn't actually mean much to me. I am looking for correctness, not to place them at one arbitrary tier.

If a body of water disappeared and steam was present (and, generally speaking, heat, too) then yeah. That's vaporization, plain and simple.

And no, I don't have a pre-determined conclusion, I've literally said that multiple times. I get the feeling you do not like me for tampering with your precious verse.

And no. Faction leaders being comparable is common sense. They are beings of equal stature with one recent example of fighting to an even standpoint, with other battles including some faction leaders from either side being far from one-sided battles. So. Try to consider that my point has grounds.And vaporizing a mountain is 6-C. Baseline. I am not, in fact, a liar, and would appreciate if you could possibly take time out of your day to fix the verse rather than take potshots at staff trying to fix it for you.

The point is you lied.

You confused melting for vaporizing? First of all how did you even do that, I mean, you saw the wiki page you linked right? Second, you seem to have confused it a couple of more times considering that you were making Monster Hunter out to be the same thing. And by source I obviously meant a source for the claim that there was steam rising from the mountain. As for whether it matters or not, I can only hope that it does matter to you. After all, doesn't it matter that you've been wasting my and your own time making incorrect claims over and over again instead of simply re-checking the vspage that you yourself linked? Doesn't it matter that despite claiming that you're aiming for accuracy you couldn't be bothered to re-check one single page just once, until I had to repeat that there was no proof of steam a dozen times? This doesn't matter to you, at all?

As for the Pokemon calc, I had already partially explained how your claim is incorrect. Only the revisions part is important to us, and that was added later then the original claim after a proposal in the comments. As I already said, despite the alleged attempt to "specifically avoid Tier 6 results", the values used to create those hypothetical mountains blew them out of proportions, making them unnaturally large. And if you had bothered to check the comments, you would have noticed that the use of mount Fuji had also been questioned as well as it is, in fact, still a high-end. We genuinely use Fuji to describe "a large mountain". In fact, if we used our own base-line for mountains, I'm quite certain that we'd get the rating down to the high-end part of 7-B, which would also coincide with the statement that Ragnaros causes volcanoes to erupt in his mere presence quite neatly. Then there's something else that needs to be taken into account. The speed at which the melting occurs. The Pokemon calc can fairly conclusively determine that the mountain was melted quickly. We don't have that luxury. In our case, Ragnaros merely expresses the desire to melt mountains to slag, nothing more. But all in all, I'm thinking that Mountain level should still be a reasonable rating for that statement.

Sure, you're at the very least half right here. It is, a tier or two at best under good conditions. But I don't agree that that's "barely" a difference. A 10x difference still gets almost half of all tiers downgraded, and even a few others as long as they're not at the absolute high-end of that particular tier.

So you're literally admitting that you'd calc full vaporization for a hot spring that STILL has water inside it? Cause that's what I asked you. That's hilarious dude. Why would you do that?

Kek, my precious little verse, that I spend aaall my time polishing. That's not really how it is though, isn't it? I barely have the time to post on VSBW as it is. And yeah, I mean, you say a lot of things, most of them being wrong. So you just can't blame me for coming to the conclusion that you're trying to get a pre-decided rating for a certain character when you have half a statement, and a full calc already made for it. And then you try and "support" that by parading the vaguest of feats.

No it isn't, it just isn't. Comparing Moira, Aysa and Jastor to Malfurion in power over a title just isn't common sense dude. No Warcraft fan would tell you that, ever. And don't you think that we've been considering the rankings of these characters for over a decade now? No, believe me, I've put enough consideration into what you've said.

Then there's this thing. You've completely abandoned any reasoning on this topic in order to spite me. Even though you should be more then aware of the Demon soul's effects and how that prompted him to put his first plating because of the overflowing power. Yet you're still pretending just to get one in. Either that or you just don't know anything about Deathwing. In the case that you literally don't know anything about Deathwing, other then that he caused the shattering, why are you bothering to scale other characters to him? What motivates this.

As for the leaders, I've noticed that there's revisions going on for storm calcs that are going to bump up the results. Interestingly enough, the OP of the thread used... my own Thrall calc as an example? Am I like, famous now? I'm flattered. Anyways, it seems that, for some reason, the results might just end up near the same category as Ragnaros would if we used the Pokemon melting calc as a rough comparison. Which would, of course, put the faction leaders closely to Malfurion's level without needing to resort to scaling based on a term used irl. Paradoxically, if these changes pass it would mean that both you and I would have been correct.

Two years. That's how. If you're unaware, I have largely been working on literally everything else as they were higher in priority. No offense meant. It's just that things like D&D and Monster Hunter had much worse failures. Once again, I am aiming for accuracy, if you could possibly be bothered to try to discuss what is wrong with these pages instead of aimlessly insulting me (and this is a sincere request that you take this seriously), melting a standard mountain is going to be higher than what is there. Instead of appealing to mistakes I made before, perhaps focusing on the issues at hand is much more of an issue.

I am aware of the calc because it was relatively well-referenced. However, the calc itself does claim to avoid Tier 6 results. You cannot possibly deny that. Moving on because again we get derailed.

Relatively speaking a tier change is a small difference. Again, it literally doesn't matter to me where they end up. Only that they end up in the right spot.

I admit I'd calc vaporization as vaporization. You're telling me that the stuff is gone and steam is present. Those are the requirements for a vaporization calc. Again, drop the jabs and try to fix this mess.

The verse you have blocked from progress being made on is more of the point. Instead of assisting, I hear only "no". You give no reason to why scaling chains don't make sense other than you thinking it makes no sense, for example. And, I will repeat myself one more time here so it can be heard since you are deliberately not hearing what I am saying, I literally do not have anything to gain from them being at 6-C or any other damnable rating. I aim for correctness, which from where I am standing, the ratings are absolutely not correct. 6-C is my proposal as right now, under current ratings, they scale to the 6-C Ragnaros. All of them. Arthas, Thrall, etc.

I don't think you have, really. From what I can tell pretty much any change I have suggested has been a joke and to be honest I'd rather just fix the problem than try to get through the fanbase-firewall that is you.

No, I haven't. See above. I have the scaling chain to Ragnaros which you dislike on the premise that "nuh uh". Of course Deathwing is stronger than the main cast. But being able to damage him in any capacity is significant.

Yes, there are storm revisions as well as past ones that would make the feat likely higher than it is. That is not relevant to my points, but that exists.

Two years? You linked the page just yesterday. Please explain how I haven't bothered to discuss the profiles, because I just don't see how that's true. And by insulting, you mean calling you out on your nonsense of course. And I find it especially funny coming from you when you called me a downplayer on your very first response, it would have been natural for you to expect a negative response.

The original post of the calc says that it is trying to avoid Tier 6, that is most certainly true. But actions speak louder then words, and in this case it is an undeniable fact that the mountains in the original calc were disproportionately huge. Simply put, for Ragnaros to achieve Island level his calc would need to use the largest of large mountains. It will be the highest of high-ends and most certainly outlier-ish. Again, especially considering that it would be based on a desire and without any knowledge of how long it would take him to actually melt a mountain. Then we'd need to decide on Malf's own scaling since the feat that you linked involves multiple people. And then, just then, maybe we could start scaling leader profiles to that. By the way, you're not being so stubborn because the Elemental Lord profiles are 6-C right now right? Cause I did say that the current ratings are unsubstantiated and without a calc they should be downgraded. I'm more then happy to start a separate CRT right now.

No I specifically told you that the water is still present in the pond in order to mirror the Rag calc which states that mountains would be boiled to a slag. Thus, regardless if there was rising steam or not, lava would have still have been present.

You've definitely heard a lot of no's, sure. But that's because your reasons for scaling are pretty flimsy and so are the calcs, which don't even technically exist. Yes, I've given reasons as to why this particular scaling isn't really good. A title is an awful reason for scaling, and I've been so against it because each and every leader has their own scaling chain which would end up scaling a lot of characters to Ragnaros.

You have suggested no changes. Unless you're talking about admitting that there's a chance that Rag is not Island level.

A significant outlier that is. And If I hadn't made myself clear, I was solely talking about the topic of Deathwing, not the entire discussion when I said, "You have abandoned it." For that I apologize. I've already addressed Ragnaros so I'll just say that the inconsistencies straight up explode in number in the case of Deathwing. It honestly doesn't even matter if we end up agreeing that Khadgar is stronger then Jaina or not. Just Gul'dan, who is depicted as stronger then Khadgar, starts an immediate domino effect which will absolutely end up scaling half of the franchise to the strongest Dragon Aspect. We will absolutely end up with lesser dragons and lackeys of Deathwing being comparable to him. In fact, that may even include Ragnaros himself. I honestly think that I hadn't made this clear, that's my bad.

Two years as in, most of the works you refer to (such as my calculation regarding Ragnaros' mountain melting) was two years ago. Same for many of the things you seem to judge me for, all of which were before I was even involved here. And I do believe you are ignoring certain things in order to use Thrall's feat alone, I simply don't know why.

If their tier gets changed, that's fine. As I've told you, one feels, about a dozen times now, I don't care what tier they end up at. Just that they end up in the right one. My intentions are pure, I assure you. You will not believe that but I will say it anyways.

A hot spring is not in fact a parallel to a mountain. I am telling you the standards of the wiki- if a thing is destroyed, and steam is present as well as suitable assumption for heat (such as, for example, fire) then vaporization is considered valid. That is how the wiki itself handles things.

"A title is an awful reason for scaling". We use it in other verses relatively often. Ashen Ones in Dark Souls are all considered somewhat comparable despite the protagonist being superior. IIRC the members of Organization XIII are all the same tier from Kingdom Hearts (yuck). Once again referring to Monster Hunter, the rankings of monsters (G-Class and such) are used to declare comparative-ness. Evecaptains of Bleach I believe follow this logic in a basic form, despite some of them showing very clear disjunction of power- because downscaling is a thing (notably the 7-A keys, for when they were actually Captains). Not only that, we do have concrete evidence of two faction leaders fighting directly 100% evenly until poison was introduced. Additionally... you're admitting faction leaders all have a scaling chain to Ragnaros. Which is my main thing to begin with.

Not sure if you meant to type "chance" here, but I'll admit it. Like I said, it doesn't matter. My point is they scale to him. If he's lower or higher tier, so be it.

I am of the rare opinion on this website that damaging a character is not inherently making you of their level. That's foolish, in my opinion. I would never once argue for Khadgar scaling directly to Deathwing- however, I do believe him being able to do anything to Deathwing is significant. For lack of another example, it'd be like Iron Man drawing blood from Thanos- Iron Man isn't on Grape Boi's level. But he can harm him. So I believe they are inferior to Deathwing, that isn't what I'm proposing as aside from the Legion and possibly some others, Deathwing is largely in a class of his own.

That doesn't make sense but, quite frankly, I'm tired and completely uninterested in playing detective so I'll drop the subject. As for me wanting to use only Thrall's calc, I think it's much more complicated then that. Thrall is what I have as solid ground, especially since his feat is on-screen and plainly calculable. I also wouldn't have considered any scaling to the Elemental Lords on my own since, as I said earlier, I don't think that their ratings are legitimately justified right now.

Great, but since we're looking to scale other characters to the Elemental Lords it would be best to first ensure that their own ratings are in order. Which means going over them as well.

Egh, that doesn't seem reasonable to me which is why I asked you for a source that can confirm it. But I will admit that it sounds plausible considering how heavily the site features anime and comics where you get to work specifically with pictures. However, I find this to be inapplicable to our case since, you know, the mountain is referred to as, "having being molten to a slag." Simply put, we can't have a vaporized mountain if we know that it's in the form of molten slag.

I am well aware that there are titles attributed to different characters that can be used as proof that they are comparable in power. But those are genuine grade-a titles within the lore that have important meaning to the franchise and in the case of Bleach, which I am moderately versed in, are literally intended to denote the most powerful individuals. The way to become captain is by achieving Bankai or by beating another captain in combat. And I'm pretty sure that the Ashen One title can't be obtained by sitting on a throne either. Meanwhile, faction leaders isn't an actual in-lore term, as I already said. It's a term that the community used to lump these characters together. In reality they don't actually share a title with each other, only status. "Queen" Moira, "High-King" Anduin, "High Chieftain" Bain etc. etc... But in practice it goes more like:

>Moira. A snappy widow with a small child that she has to take care of.

>Falstad. Taxi service for Rhonin and Vereesa.

>Muradin. Was already getting ragdolled by 15-16 (something like that) year old pre-paladin Arthas. Lost to an icicle that flew off of Frostmourne. Him and Varok (idk which one is canon) get restrained by Deathbringer Saurfang with exactly as much effort as their footmen/grunts were.

>Vol'jin. Got injured by so many random Zandalari scouts it actually made me feel bad for the Horde. Needed help to beat random Zandalari shaman scout guy. Got put into the ground by random Felguard #34.

Cairne was BTFOing Garrosh hard. He managed to land just one shallow hit which was what won him the fight because it paralyzed Cairne. But yes, even then it is likely that there's still a lot of scaling to go around from Malfurion. He hasn't been invincible. He lost to Maiev badly and even when her brother came to rescue him, the two of them only barely managed to drive her off. From here it should be possible to scale a lot of characters. There's also Xavius, who has defeated Malf more times that he has lost. And I think I remember that he might have been confronted by Rhonin during the WotA, but don't quote me on that. So yeah, there's still scaling to be had without the need to rely on a title that the characters don't actually have, and that doesn't carry even remotely the same weight that titles from other verses may carry.

Well I'm glad to hear that at least. I was genuinely concerned that this was going to end up being a proposal to scale everyone to Deathwing, even if it was pre-Deepholm Deathwing.

If the elemental lords' rating goes down, that doesn't matter. Scaling to them does not hinge on them having a higher or lower rating, only that such scaling is possible.

I am happy to assist with going over the elemental lords if I can do that. Or the Titan-Forged if feats can be found there.

Molten slag would probably be melting, yes. I can still calc it, and I imagine it would be higher than Low 7-B, but still.

The Ashen One title is achieved by failure, actually. Once you fail to achieve status as a Lord of Cinder, it is possible you will later reawake as an Ashen One to try again. And... as for the titles. Falstad I can't argue with because it's funny, Moira's doesn't actually mean much from what you said (having a snappy child is not super material), Muradin getting beat up by Arthas at whatever age doesn't mean tons, and frankly Vol'jin's is 100% PIS.

Scaling to the elemental lords is had, if it is through your own thought process that works for me.

No. I am not in fact a raging fantard attempting to wank the whole verse to scaling to Sargeras because you heard his voice once. Just trying to fix stuff what needs fixing.

Alright, we should probably start by looking over the feats of the Elemental Lords in that case? I remember you saying something about a High 7-A calc for Neptulon before, if I recall correctly.

I meant that Moira is the snappy one. She's literally just a princess that was kidnapped and held in another castle. She's been in no serious fight whatsoever. And in the case of Muradin, it means quite a lot considering that this scaling also involves Arthas-Lich King. In a nutshell, it would make this scaling contradictory since Arthas was already a sufficiently skilled fighter with the capability of going toe to toe with Muradin before even obtaining the Light. Let alone Arthas as a DK, double let alone as the Lich King. Finally, I can't say that I completely agree that it's PIS in the case of Vol'jin. He has never been portrayed as an exceptionally powerful fellow. Even if we ignore the events in the Shadows of the Horde, the very prelude to that book involves going to a cave with Vol'jin and watching as a lackey of Garrosh nearly kills him. Actually, now that I think about it, I can't even remember one case of Vol'jin fighting a major, powerful lore character. Maybe, it could perhaps be explained as him being a glass cannon I guess... But then again, since he hasn't fought anyone strong I don't know how appropriate even that would be.

As long as we can conclusively straighten out the Elementals and decide on exactly how we're going to treat the scaling feat then there's definitely some scaling to be had to Malf via actual fights.

I'd like to recalc that if it's all the same to you, as I was inexperienced at the time. Granted I'd still call myself inexperienced, but I'd like to double down and check my work.

I wouldn't say Vol'jin was exceptionally powerful, only that being RKO'd by random soldiers (who would be like 9-B) is 100% PIS.

Largely coz Malf is an old boye and has had the time to do actual fights.

Certainty is best. Re-reviewing the info on the Lords is what I'm looking forward to as well, especially Therazane for me. Since I feel like I too was far too inexperienced when I first supported the Island level rating for her.

Did something happen to Low 7-C/ 8-A fodder? And IDK really... I'll need to look into Vol'jin more since I genuinely can't say that I support ratings based on a title that doesn't exist. I think he might have taken some hits from some Lei-Shen empowered Mogu captain and shrugged them off. But I'll have to re-check.

Ye.

Right. As far as I know, the most notable stuff is Al'Akir's storm, whatever we end up finding for Ragnaros' feats, Neptulon's tidal wave, and Therazane's general mountain-raising stuff. And whatever Titan-Forged do since a good few of them scale via Odyn. I'd like to say I know how to reliably calc his Halls of Valor feat, but I cannot actually do that without hefty assumptions. Freya carving out country-sized areas (if I remember the feat correctly) would be great, but sadly done over time.

And no, that feat is up. A fodder demon tanked impact of a bit over 371 tons of TNT, or 8-A.

By the way for those here I did recalc the Neptulon feat and got High 6-C results. It has been up on my blog for some time- messaged Myriad about it awhile back.

Scaling anyone to Malfurion is a no no. He has been stated multiple times to be the strongest mortal on the planet nobody even comes close to him. Sylvanas briefly managed to hold him off but she was going to die if it wasn't for Saurfang. And technicly he is not the leader of his race thats Tyrande. Also not all faction chose the strongest person of their race to lead them. Gnomes for example chose the one who is the best inventor.

While I do agree that lore wise scaling anyone to Malfurion shouldn't make any sense, Sylvanas did somewhat matched him and I'm not sure that is supposed to be an outlier, considering Nathanos empowered by one of her Val'kyrs was enough to match both amped Tyrande and Malfurion.

...I don't remember any gnomes being very powerful physically, though? I never played a gnome (for obvious reasons) so forgive me if I have little knowledge on them, but he'd be the strongest since... best inventor. For them it's practically the same thing with their bigass mechs.

Downscaling is a thing, to be clear.

Are there going to be upgrades based on that calc?

Hopefully.

Is this a feat?

"The events of the Cataclysm shook Azeroth and the Emerald Dream to their roots. As the night elves fought to repel the forces of Ragnaros from Mount Hyjal, they asked the champions of Azeroth to summon new allies--or, to be specific, old ones.

Many of the Wild Gods who had died in the War of the Ancients were resurrected. Aviana returned to life on Azeroth and joined the Horde and the Alliance in successfully pushing the elemental forces back into the Firelands. In the end, Ragnaros was killed, and Mount Hyjal was saved.

Aviana turned her attention to G'Hanir once again. Times had changed, but her dream of providing a spiritual haven for her kind had not. She set out to restore the Mother Tree to its full glory."

It seems pretty literal and not like a metaphor, plus this is from an omniscient narrator not an unreliable character.

Questionably.

Also shouldn't Freya be 5-B for creating the Emerald Dream which is a mirror copy of Azeroth?

I'm not sure on that one. It's a pocket reality but it's also just a dream and it also falls into the same category as The Matrix thing, where it only simulates the areas people actually inhabit (i.e., the surface), making it High 6-A.

I think a key in the Emerald Dream might be appropriate, but yeah. IIRC Ysera held the dream up so she might scale.

Well this quote in chronicles says it's a mirror copy of Azeroth, I would assume that means it's the full earth and not the surface. But either way that's High 6-A at least. That should scale to the Old Gods and Elemental Lords, as well as the other Titan Keepers.

The issue is its just in the Emerald Dream.

Ogbunabali said:

Also shouldn't Freya be 5-B for creating the Emerald Dream which is a mirror copy of Azeroth?

Click to expand...

We dont have a time frame for that. It could have taken thousend of years for her to create it

Regardless the Emerald Dream AP isn't the same as real world AP. Its a Freddy Krueger situation- 9-B IRL, 7-C in dream world.

Honestly just scale Freya and the rest of the watchers to the dragon aspects they are empowered by the exact same ritual

I know. But Deathwing can't be scaled to honestly, he's amped himself up above the others.

Neptulon's High 6-C feat is the best we get for them, which is fine enough. As said earlier this, through chains, scales to a fair amount of the main cast.

Im suprized nobady has mentioned Malygos claiming he could "Raze the earth with the energy from the Nexsus"

It has been discussed but the timeframe is the main issue.

Why is the demun hunter at least equal to illidin?

If were talking about the warcraft 3 character then I suppose that would be correect but if your talking about the Demon Hunter from world of warcraft that is blatently wrong as they are all aprentices to him anyway.