Warcraft revisions

[Dragonstitch]

I explicitly stated that Nathanos doesn't scale to tyrande, why do you think he's 7-B likely 6-C and not High 6-B by default by scaling to tyrande. He scales to pre-jailor Sylvanus who (in WoW anyway) should be stronger then CotLK Arthas or at least comparable

sorry about that then.

 

[Hellbeast]

I do not recognise your username well. What was the one that you used previously?

Anyway, as others have mentioned, you need to stay polite and respectful in order for our content revision discussions to work properly.

Probably Myriad of Memes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that he was a knowledgeable member about this subject, so I hope that he can shape up his behaviour here.

 

[M2B3]

Thrall

Tier: Yes, small city level. That's what Thrall's showings put him at. If we assume that Jaina's wave did indeed have city-level amount of energy, even though we don't really have a calc to substantiate that, then the scaling actually fits quite well as he was only barely holding it off whilst pouring all of his strength into trying to stop it.

As for 6-C, Thrall has no island level showings. Especially not in Legion where he had already lost his shamanic powers. All in all, you're giving him a bunch of unnecessary keys that he doesn't need. He might have been weaker before cata/mop (when he peaked), but by an indeterminate amount and even then, probably not by much.

Dragon Soul: Thrall's use of the Dragon Soul wouldn't even qualify as optional equipment for him, let alone anything else. It was a one-off thing that he got to fire off a couple of times, nothing more. There's absolutely no reason for a Dragon Soul key.

Speed: Scaling to Illidan is fine-ish... Though it would be downscaling more than anything else.

Healing: Thrall hasn't shown any higher aptitude for healing than average shamans. Also, Healing isn't measured under the same metric that's used for Regeneration.

Mind/Fear Resistance: Game mechanics. It's there to prevent raids from cheesing boss fights by stun-locking entire phases out of a fight. Many boss characters appear in Warcraft 3 and the only CC that I remember them being immune to back then was a Banshee's possession and Polymorph.

Arthas

Comparing paladin Arthas to Thrall should be fine but nothing after that. Once he becomes a Death Knight he gains new powerful hax abilities, but he isn't portrayed as having become ridiculously stronger than he already was before. The tier "6-C" pops up again here for some unexplained reason. I assume that these are comparisons to the Elemental Lords, but quite frankly none of the characters mentioned here have anything to do with them.

One shot Uther the Lightbringer

No he didn't. It took a good dozen hits or so to fell Uther, and that was only after a very hard-fought fight.

High-6B: In no way, at any point, is Arthas portrayed as being more powerful than the weakened Yog in Ulduar, let alone Malygos. He has obviously grown stronger by becoming the Lich King again, and has certainly gained ever more powerful new abilities on top of having full control of the Scourge, but he is still affected by the exact same things that he already was before he became the Lich King. Namely, Sylvanas/Jaina in the Halls of Reflection. Hell, a well equipped DK like Trag can damage Arthas too. Even the writers were of the opinion that Arthas wasn't a particularly strong fighter himself, and that someone of Lei Shen's caliber could take him.

Type 6 Immo: Did you actually bother to read the Immortality page? Specifically the Type 6 entry? It pretty much describes the way in which the Helm of Domination functions.

Resistances: Game mechanics. Arthas is the perfect example of that. In the Halls of Reflection dungeon Sylvanas dazes arthas, and Jaina freezes him in place on the Alliance side. Obviously, doing this to him during his boss fight is not possible.

Stamina: No they don't have this by default. A claim like that will require some serious proof.

Dragon Aspects

CC resitance: Same as above

Malygos intelligence: Mentally unstable would logically belong under "Weaknesses", but you are correct that he has largely recovered by the time of his death.

Lifting Strength: Class 25 is a bit low, Dragon Aspects are insanely huge. Class T however, is too high, Deathwing has never outright lifted any mountain.

Galakrond

This profile is terrible, It should honestly be considered for deletion.

Flight: I can't tell if you're saying that in jest or not. Galakrond flies from the start of his book, through the middle of it when he is at his largest, and all the way up until the moment of his death at its' very end.

Lifting Strength: Class M is fine, maybe even class G. Class T is probably a no, though. Certainly not for Deathwing's reasons as stated above. It's hard to say for Galakrond however.

Kel'Thuzad

Tier: Same as for Arhas' Death Knight key. 6-C is completely out of place.

CC Resistance: Again, as before.

Tirion

Tier: Since LK isn't really High 6-B, then neither is Tirion.

Stamina: What long battles? How long were they? Withstanding torture is more of a willpower feat than a stamina feat.

Intelligence: No, no he doesn't. Above Average is where he's at.

Bolvar Tier: I guess he didn't roll over after a single shot from suped up Sylvanas, that's gotta count for something at least a little. But since Arthas isn't comparable to the Dragon Aspects...

Titans/Void Lord Tier: Probably for whatever reasons are listed on their profiles.

Old Gods

Stamina: They waged constant war with one another, but these wars aren't anywhere near well enough described for you to make the statement that they didn't have space for downtime. They could have very much had the opportunity to rest. Same thing for being "active" after their imprisonment.

Poison Manipulation. Only Yog has Poison manip and it's because he uses a poison spell during his boss fight.

Time Manipulation Resistance: I can't remember ever hearing anything about them being unaffected by the Emerald Dream in the manner that you're describing.

Nathanos is fine except for all the things that I've already mentioned above.
All the other things that I didn't address are fine by me.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't care much for OP, but uh... Small City level calc is bunk, has been for ages, the revisions I'll eventually be motivated enough to slap on through offer vastly better calcs than what we currently have for Warcraft. I'd invite you to speak with Udl if you really want to argue the finer details since as far as I know, he's still an active player of the verse. Suffice to say, I don't think the verse has been handled properly in ages.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@M2B3

Thrall:

Your probably right about this, i still think Cata thrall should be a city level(he's at his strongest, which should make him comparable to grom and mannoroth)also about the resistances

I'll cover it here, no crap Arthas was dazed(doesn't even matter for resistances) or that Jaina froze him(i didn't mention once resistance to ice manip, where that falls under), also about mind screwing and fear, Arthas shouldn't have the emp manip resistance but considering that those generally don't effect 99% of important lore characters(titans got corrupted, it's different) there isn't much else to say.

Arthas:

Considering the dragon aspects are all High 6-B why didn't they pimp-slap Arthas? Oh right we need an expansion... That's a joke but it's kind of true, i stand by my 6-C for Arthas, Lei Shen should be at least High 6-B himself and the titan keepers the same, you know Dragon Aspects and all. Oh and look at where Malygos's raid is in WotLK, it's near the beginning, with Naxx being the first i believe, oh wait that doesn't found cause of C'Thun in classic, sigh back to the drawing board.


I explained the resistances in the thrall section, also i forgot that part of Warcraft 3, also damaging Arthas isn't exactly the best thing, not for a well-equiped DK anyway, DK's aren't exactly weak, Arthas has two artifacts that buff his power, also your image isnt working for me.

Aspects:

Class 50 maybe, possibly class 100? I agree with the class T thing, Deathwing would have class T with his Aspect of Earth powers though(the shattering)

Galakrond:

Jeez, Galakrond did fly? I'm an idiot, agreed on everything else though, i would rather the page not deleted, as it can be fixed.

KT:

I mentioned the resistances above, i agree with no 6-C for KT however.

Tirion:
Scale him da hell to Arthas, so yeh.

Wrath of the Lich King, like the whole expansion, especially the quest line where we cut the hell out of Arthas's heart.

Hate to break this to you but Tirions intelligence is listed as unknown, for some ungodly reason other then they're worse at making profiles then me whoever made them.

Bolvar: scales to good ol' tirion!

I rest my case on the titans and void lords.

Old Gods:

As for stamina the Old Gods have to constantly replace minions that are killed, so the chances of any downtime whatsoever are slim to say the least

Then let's remove that time resistance from the profiles, let's DEW IT!

 

[Antvasima]

@Mr._Bambu

So what do you think that we should do here in summary?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'll say the following: I haven't actively played the game since Mists first came out. That's 8 years of content I'm not aware of. What I know is that the current calc most of Warcraft scales to relies on storm creation stuff (generally shaky ground without further context) and ignores a lot of the higher end feats by hand-waving them. This seems to happen often.

My current opinion is that much of the lore-important characters of the verse has every reason to scale to Ragnaros and crew, and I seem to recall Myriad agreeing with me on that on some thread from ages ago. I know Udl is in favor of such a thing as well, which means the majority of WoW supporters are in general fine with that concept. The problem arises in confrontation since it becomes a verbal fist fight on these threads.

I don't think Reaper is organized enough to create an efficient CRT for the verse, and most of these threads become listless fairly quickly due to lack of sources/facts. A lot of it is just his observations which, while harmless enough, don't really offer much in the way of reform. For the moment I'd like to ask him again to stop making these so people can fix the mess that is Warcraft. My primary suggestion for the person to do that, despite the issues I've had with him in the past, is Udl. While I'm almost certain a fight will break out as a result of this, Udl is still actively playing the game and wants to fix the verse. His famously overzealous interpretations aside the man is who I'd trust the most for these revisions from the choices I have before me.

So, if I had to propose a solution: let Udl create a CRT for Warcraft, if he wishes, wherein he states a problem that he has some remedy for, and then shows the remedy. Debate can be had by anybody afterwards as long as it remains peaceful, since these threads get sidetracked easily. I'll watch over the thread but likely won't intervene much personally in the results due in part to a lack of current information (all of my calcs that will in all probability will be used are still relevant, afaik) and a slight bias in favor of nuking old scaling (I've discussed at length how I think current scaling is handled poorly, I don't know if it'd be appropriate for me to step in). For this proposed thread, Udl should take charge and systematically fix issues with the verse, starting with fixing current pages.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

@Udlmaster

Would you be willing to help out please?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I contacted him and made sure he wouldn't be using the RPG. I will say I don't totally agree with everything he views as correct- like dodging spells and such, I think Myriad and Ogbun put forth a genuinely good argument there. So I'm not saying I 100% side with Udl on everything, I just think the current handling is far too conservative for my tastes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Hellbeast]

@Bambu So what tier do you think is best

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Personally? Like I said, I believe most lore-relevant characters will end up scaling to Thrall, or the strongest non-lore-relevant character (to my knowledge, this is currently Animus, an elemental that was gonna bust Thousand Needles). This is 6-Bish for the former and 7-Bish for the latter. Fodder varies wildly but in general starts at 9-B for shit like the level one enemies you fight (giant scorpions in Durotar, bigass wolves in Dun Morogh, etc) up to 8-A for late-game fodder scaling to higher-end Fel demons that can launch themselves at like Mach 13.

Above that, Dragon Aspects and the few that scale to them likely sit around 6-A (Cataclysm, Nexus), Burning Crusade top dogs at 5-B (Planet-busting), Titans bare minimum 4-B given the existence of Constellars.

Like I said, I don't intend to personally weigh in except to keep the discussion civil, since uncivil discussion has gotten us **** all in terms of reform.

 

[M2B3]

@DaReaperMan

i still think Cata thrall should be a city level(he's at his strongest, which should make him comparable to grom and mannoroth)

Mannoroth literally scales off of Thrall for being barely hurt by Thrall's attacks and 1-shotting him. Also, looking at Manny and Grom's profiles, someone seems to have changed their ratings without a CRT as well. I'm quite perplexed as to why no staff member managed to notice that an entire verse has had a bunch of profiles altered without a CRT.

I'll cover it here, no crap Arthas was dazed.....

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this. Let me remind you what sort of explanations you've given for these resistances:

also do i REALLY need to grab footage of someone trying to use mind control and fear on a god damn raid boss?

as well as this from the Deathwing thread which tries to give Deathwing the same resistance for the exact same reasons:

Fear Manipulation(the fear spell does not effect Deathwing), Mind Control(Priests cannot mind control Deathwing)

Your premise clearly is that bosses are immune to CC, even if you only mention Fear and Mind manip here. They are in their fights. But fear and mind manip aren't the only CC spells available to players. You can cast all your other Crown Control abilities on bosses and none of them are going to work just like a Priest's Mind Control. Mages have Deep Freeze which stuns enemies by freezing them in a block of Ice, and that doesn't work on Arthas. Rogues have Sap and Gouge which incapacitates the target, and these don't work on Arthas either. Yet Jaina and Sylvanas do exactly that. The fact is, bosses aren't actually immune to CC from a lore perspective, only from a gameplay perspective.

Just think about who else would get resistances to each and every CC in the game from this. Edwin VanCleef, a random stonemason turned kingpin, is just as immune to Crowd Control as Deathwing and Arthas, two characters that have entire expansions revolving around them. Edwin doesn't have any sort of powerful magical ability, or any kind of artifact that would allow him to resist any type of spell, ability, or poisonous substance that has some sort of movement impairing effect, and yet he resists all of them anyways. The only thing that all three of them have in common is that they're all boss fight encounters. There's nothing more to this than devs trying to prevent players from trivializing each and every boss fight with CC.

considering the dragon aspects are all High 6-B why didn't they pimp-slap Arthas? Oh right we need an expansion...

Precisely. Well, to be even more accurate, Ysera was already imprisoned in the Emerald Nightmare during WOTLK and Nozdormu had already become lost in time. Only Alex could have acted against Arthas.

also damaging Arthas isn't exactly the best thing

not for a well-equiped DK anyway, DK's aren't exactly weak

A no name death knight might not be weak but they're not Aspect level either. That's the point.

also your image isnt working for me.

Here. The image in my last response seems to have fixed itself anyways.

Aspects:

Class 50 maybe, possibly class 100?

Class K via sheer size. Deathwing's model is over a hundred meters long, 112 if I remember correctly, and the other Aspects aren't that far behind. Hell, Alexstrasza used to be slightly bigger than him.

As for stamina the Old Gods have to constantly replace minions that are killed

You've simply changed the activity from "constantly waging war" to "constantly replacing minions". Just as before, there's still not enough context to say that they didn't have any rest time whatsoever.


@Bambu

I don't care much for OP, but uh... Small City level calc is bunk, has been for ages

No.

I don't think the verse has been handled properly in ages.

Considering the things you've been proposing, one can only imagine what "handled properly" really entails.

My current opinion is that much of the lore-important characters of the verse has every reason to scale to Ragnaros and crew

I can't really see that myself. Certainly not cleanly.

and I seem to recall Myriad agreeing with me on that

Unlikely. You probably misinterpreted something that I said. Long threads tend to get confusing.

Anyways, I probably won't be able to respond for a while since I'll be quite tied up in Shadowlands. Hopefully you guys can figure out what you'll do with all these CRTs.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"No"

I'm reminded of a certain somebody who also solely said no. Didn't work out for them and this is good enough evidence as to why I think Udl is a better choice for handling the verse.

 

[M2B3]

The sentence, "Small City level calc is bunk, has been for ages..." amounts to nothing more than a long winded, "No." Hitchens's razor, Bambu.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And yet you managed to respond to the rest of the second, elaborated comment.

"What I know is that the current calc most of Warcraft scales to relies on storm creation stuff (generally shaky ground without further context) and ignores a lot of the higher end feats by hand-waving them. This seems to happen often."

We don't use storm feats anymore. It's bunk. Has been for awhile.

I'm closing this until Udl makes his thread. If you aren't gonna even bother trying then I suppose enjoy your Shadowlands.