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Kwon Shi-Yun vs Claire Rouge (1 more votes)

This is actually pretty interesting. Long range flames against short range flames. Claire arguably has a better set of abilities overall, but Kwon has better CQC prowess, durability negation, and black flames. I think she can also fly in this key, though that's most for darting in and out of sticky situations. And it seems like Claire's cat form can absorb flames, which is a big boon to her here.

Huh. I'll have to come back to this one.
 
"This is actually pretty interesting. Long range flames against short range flames."

That's what I was going for =)
 
A small correction. Claire doesn't have a cat form; her weapon does. Claire herself is as human as it gets. But her weapon (Flametongue), can turn into a cat spirit (Scarlet). Also keep in mind that, in her 1st key, Claire's cat doesn't have her human form (Ortlinde), yet.
 
GoldenScorpions said:
Following. Will comment after analyzing.

Also, you should have links to the characters in the OC. It's kinda annoying to manually open other tabs for the characters, when I could just click on a link.

Kwon Shi-Yu vs Claire Rouge
Click to expand...
Never thought of it as annoying, but I'll update it.
 
Mostly just the drill technique as well as spiritualization. Though she should have access to the Gamer's skills in her 8-A form, which gives her the regen/invulnerability and accelerated development. I'll have to shift that over.
 
Isn't spiritualization what gives her the "invulnerability" against physical attacks? Since she doesn't have spiritualization at Base, from where does she get her physical invulnerability?
 
From the Gamer's body. Spiritualization and Gamer's body work differently, but produce similar results.

She also can only use her regular red flames and black flames. She doesn't have access to her white ones here, not that I'm sure if it would make much of a difference.
 
Considering Claire resists the Fire element and Scarlet can absorb flames to get stronger, it won't be easy for Kwon to last sustantial damage on her. Claire's Flame Chain won't be good against Kwon due to her Power Nullification on herself, but her mastery of the whip would allow her to still potentially entangle Kwon with her regular whip. Kwon's flight doesn't matter much due to her lack of ranged attacks and Claire being great in both mid-range and long-range.

Claire's ability of making the fight 2-vs-1, her higher intelligence, long range, resistance to fire and access to healing might give her the win.

I'm not making a definitive vote yet, however. Kwon's mini-time stop could give her the win. How long is "doesn't last that long"?
 
"but her mastery of the whip would allow her to still potentially entangle Kwon with her regular whip"

Kwon has much much higher lifting strength, so if she tries that it would allow her to pull her into her general direction.
 
Oh, she actually should since she sxales above that humongous golem.

As for timestop, a few minutes, but OOC as heck
 
In that case, without the worry of Time Stop from Kwon, I think Claire's got this.

Adding to my previous arguments, Claire's fighting style is to draw fights out and make her opponents tire, all the while analyzing them. They may both have high stamina, but Claire having more options at her disposal + her range advantage, she'll tire slower. She's smart and competent enough to keep her distance from Kwon, once she sees she has no ranged options. And even if she does get close, Claire's got her sharp instinct and Scarlet to help her get out, the latter capable of absorbing fire and getting stronger from it. Finally, if worse comes to worse and she's in mortal danger, she has End of Vermillion to burn Kwon down.
 
Pretty sure kwon can keep going for days, especially as her fire relies on burning souls from the eniverement.

Plus, she can regen all of her stamina in a few minutes tops, an could escape to a pocket dimension to recover
 
"Illusion Barriers: Kwon has the ability to create illusion barriers, same as most others within the abyss."
 
Illusion barriers are an in verse mechanic. It's the ability to create a pocket dimension to battle in to avoid Gaia's preventative power, which brings terrible misfortune to any who uses powers from the abyss in the real world and cause a large stir while doing so.

Flight helps Kwon weave in and out of long ranged attacks, so I think that saying it's useless is a stretch. However, I do agree with many of the points presented. Countering Kwon's standard fire manipulation, making the battle two on one, specializing in a long ranged fight. However, Kwon does have a few things going for her that I think will especially come in clutch. Aside from trying to catch her in the whips of flame being less than idea, flight allows her to more easily close the distance while dodging. And her limited durability negation means that she only needs a few hits to win, in particular since she outclasses Claire in CQC.

With statistics amplification in the form of the black flame, I honestly see absolutely no reason why Kwon wouldn't just objectively close the distance and finish her with a single combo. Unless Clair has some kind of noticeable regen, then she wouldn't be able to take it. Kwon's invulnerability would help her sustain a long ranged fight, combined with her flight and dodging tactics. She can essentially one shot the cat that can absorb her flames as her durability negation isn't dependent upon her flames. And she can always just not use her flames once she's in close. But I find it very unlikely that Claire would be able to hold off Kwon long enough for Kwon to run out of stamina. And I don't think her tools are efficient enough to prevent Kwon from closing the distance when she can increase her speed by leaps and bounds and likely blitz her the way she did the church of masks iirc.
 
You make some good points and some I don't agree with.

I admit I brushed off flight too quickly. Flight does give Kwon the advantage of mobility and the ability to move quickly in and out of Claire's range and/or physical contact. Her pocket dimension thingy could also come in clutch, as she could enter it, rest a bit and then come out again.

However, about the flight, considering speed is equalized and Claire has slight instinctive reactions in this form + naturally sharp senses, Kwon landing a hit isn't guaranteed even with good CQC. Her skill of the whip is excellent and, if it's in cat form instead, it can attack from another angle as it has ranged attacks as well. About the pocket dimension, if Kwon uses it to hide and rest for a few minutes, Claire can also rest in the meantime + she's got healing crystals with her.

You mention statistics amplification, but her profile says she only has that in her 2nd key; there's no mention in the 1st one. Without it, how can she "blitz her" since speed is equalized? I do see that her Black Flames are stronger than her regular ones, but do we know by how much? Is she still within the 8-A range with them?
 
Right. Okay. So, the fight would be very likely to take place in an illusion barrier. She'd likely transport both of them there to avoid Gaia's preventative power. Not to mention that there's a time dilation factor of typically ten times. So ten minutes to her would only be one minute to Claire if that was a viable tactic for Kwon to use.

Kwon landing a hit, while not 100% guaranteed, is very likely considering her skill in CQC. Instinctive reaction is great, but unless it's 100% accurate like ultra instinct, Kwon should be able to read that as well, to a certain degree. And can even bait out attacks to punish them.

The statistics amplification I was referring to comes from her black flames, which she has in both forms. It should allow her to blitz. And she should still be in the 8-A range, just stronger. I'd have to go back to see if it says she's several times stronger, which would be a 3x increase in the general areas iirc. But she was able to explicitly break through barriers she couldn't before, and one shot members of the church of masks who were engaging her in CQC previously. They simply got back up due to their regen, which actually brings me to my next point.

Claire doesn't have a way around Kwon's regen. At all. The main reason why I think Kwon would win, is because Claire's win condition is so much harder for Kwon. Kwon has to land either one well placed hit, or a solid combo of like three, four, or five hits. Whereas Claire has to land enough to bypass her invulnerability, which is going to be immensely difficult considering even Low 7-C characters weren't able to do that to her 8-A version.

If Kwon just fought without her flames and just her flight and CQC, what's going to really happen? The cat won't have much to absorb, and is likely to be one shot if it get too close. The whips won't do much damage to Kwon, and her superior lifting strength should allow her to pull Claire to her should she catch them, which isn't improbable. The black flames allow for a potential speed blitz into a combo, which is all that's really required. For her to kinda just rush straight in with a string of attacks using her superior CQC. Or, if she one shots the cat, she'd be free to use her flames again presumably for offensive and defensive purposes.

Claire's win condition is far harder and more unlikely to come about than Kwon's. Whips aren't going to keep her out for an extraordinarily lengthy amount of time. And, unless the cat has any other unique skills, it won't be enough either.
 
Even if Kwon doesn't use her own flames, Claire will keep using her own. Her special whip isn't her only method of attack after all. Another extension of her drawn-out fighting style is that she's perfectly capable of spamming fire attacks. Also clarifying that Scarlet is as strong as Claire.

I feel you may overestimate Kwon's "blitzing". You need to be several times faster to blitz someone, which, if Kwon reaches that far, isn't that a stomp? She should have stat amp on her 1st key if she has access to that; her profile shows nothing of the sort on that 1st key.

Mid-Low regen really isn't that impressive during combat, unless it works stupidly fast. Kwon's invulnerability is also limited to physical attacks. Since Claire's entire arsenal is mid-to-long range except Blood Aria, she doesn't have to worry about that.

Also, how exactly does her pocket dimension work? Is it like a "gate" of sorts she enters, or is it a wide-ranged spell that traps anyone around her inside? If it's the former, I don't see how Kwon can force Claire inside it. What about the time dilation? And why would the fight start in an Illusion Barrier? The fight is using SBA, so it's happening in New York. Since that barrier is a spell, she'd have to activate it. Speaking of, that "Gaia's preventative power" thing should be added to Kwon's weaknesses, whatever it does.

Something to mention is that Scarlet can dematerialize and rematerialize at will, and, if it finds itself in danger, Claire can call her back and turn it into her whip. Also, if beaten, it can be summoned again, though not immediately; a couple dozens of seconds are required.

Another thing, Claire is extremely smart and a great strategist, enough to be considered among the most intelligent characters. She's defeated stronger - and equally smart - opponents and rival teams through her analysis and adaptability in combat, and can formulate plans mid-battle. There's no reason to believe Claire won't see through Kwon's tactics and combat skills, and formulate a plan for them.

Finally, she's got End of Vermillion. Granted, in her 1st key, it's very situational, only activates when she's in mortal danger and happens subconsciously as a last-effort defense mechanism, which means she can't control the spell, but those flames are far superior than anything else she has at that point in the story, enough to cause her sister, the strongest character in the series to date, to flinch and seriously counter-attack.
 
I'll go sleep now, so I'll see the answers later. If one of you could fix the couple things I mentioned on Kwon's profile, it'd be appreciated (the Gaia thing, Stat Amp on 1st key, explain more precisely how her illusion barrier works). After all, VS matches are a great way to find out what isn't clear on a profile.
 
Half of the things you're asking about are actually present on the verse pages for The Gamer, as they apply to everyone in verse, not just one specific person. You should find some of the answers you're looking for with regards to Gaia's preventative power and Illusion barriers/ID Barriers there.

Spamming fire attacks won't be too useful either unless they have some really large AoE. Kwon's entire guild uses fire attacks, and she recovered easily from the guild leader's attacks. Attacks that should've broken bones much like Kwon's do, but had practically no effect due to her regen. The reason why she has invulnerability as opposed to simply low-mid regen (Whereas Han has Low-Mid regen), is because the way its been portrayed for her is as invulnerability. Tanking attacks without flinching, such that she could, quite literally, just run or fly towards Claire, brushing off her attacks without flinching. It takes quite a lot of damage to be able to accumulate more damage than someone who's Low 7-C can, considering the fact that Claire is 8-A. Even the flames that are much stronger than her usual ones, would have to completely overwhelm this invulnerability. Which, granted, they might.

If the black flames aren't listed on her first key then I'll need to add them. Though I would hardly call having a speed advantage against someone whose entire arsenal is nothing but long ranged attacks a stomp. Considering that Kwon has no long ranged moves of her own. In particular since she doesn't start off with her black flames, and would have to decide to use them. And if Claire is as great a strategist as what's been stated/shown, that should allow her time to win. But her win condition is so much harder than Kwon's that it seems far more likely that Kwon will overwhelm her with a speed, CQC, and limited durability negation advantage.

Also, for a final note, unless the dematerialization is instant like teleportation, the cat would have to evade the punch, or kick, from Kwon. And if she's using the cat, but can't use her whips, that seems like it would put her at even more of a disadvantage.

I'll ask Risci to comment here as well. He may be of some use.
 
I still don't get her "invulnerability". Her profile clearly states that it protects her from physical attacks only. Claire's entire arsenal is ranged, not physical, thus her invulnerability doesn't work here, right? Or are you telling me Kwon's invulnerability also works against ranged attacks too? How fast is her regen? Like I said, Mid-Low isn't impressive unless it's very quick.

GoldenScorpions said:
What techniques does Kwon not have access to at 8-A?
Click to expand...
Litentric Teon said:
Mostly just the drill technique as well as spiritualization.
Click to expand...
The drill technique is what allows her to strike pressure points, and you said she doesn't have the drill technique in Base, so you should put that back on her 7-C key and remove from her 8-A one.
 
Alright, I'll clarify her invulnerability first.

Her invulnerability and her Low-Mid regen are linked as they come from an ability known as: The Gamer's body. It grants Han very fast Low-Mid regen. But for Kwon, she's shown both regen, and invulnerability while using it. And in verse, iirc, it's been described as both.

The low-mid regen is fast enough for her to heal from having multiple bones broken by the time the guild leader moved a meter or two back after inflicting the aforementioned damage. So it's pretty quick.

Also, why would a ranged attack by default not have to be a physical attack? That's a logical fallacy. Guns are ranged weapons, yet that make physical contact, and cause physical damage, to other objects. The reason why I'm arguing Kwon's invulnerability would be useful against the whip, aside from the whip being a physical weapon, is because those in her guild whom she's fought combine fire with their physical attacks, and neither the fire nor the force of the attacks brought her any real harm. Hence why she should be able to brush off the whip, which isn't too much different.

Lastly, Kwon can attack pressure points without having to use the drill technique, so that bit being in her 8-A key is fine. The drill technique is noted under Blood Manipulation in her Low 7-C key.
 
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