Sans Profile Clean-up

Sans' profile is in some serious need of a clean-up. Many of his abilities have no justification or functionality explanation, and he has a tier via hax. For full disclosure I genuinely hate Sans and think he is, bar none, the most wanked character on this site, so make sure to catch me here if I over-reach.

To start: Unknown via hax: You don't get a tier via hax. Either the hax is directly attacking, and thus scales to AP, or it is hax, in which case only shows the potency of the hax in question rather than giving a tier. High Templar aren't High 6-C for being able to ignore the durability of an Ultralisk, it is just what Matter/Mind manipulation entails to begin with.

Now for some abilities: Reality Warping: How and what is the application? Nothing is explained here.

Spatial Manipulation: Once again, how? None of his attacks entail this and no explanation is given.

Gravity Manipulation: Given that this attack effects souls, which are metaphysical and lack mass or concrete existence, it isn't gravity manipulation. Since it is capable of moving a soul, it is merely an extension of soul manipulation. Unless he can throw a physical body to the ground with this, it isn't conventional gravity manipulation, nor would it be significantly strong, since the target is still mobile, just grounded.

Alternate Timeline Awarenes: This isn't a power. At best it is intelligence, but being informed about a fact isn't anything special. Most of you probably didn't know that the White's Tree Frog is prone to obesity in captivity, but now you do. Does this give you a power or extra level of intelligence? No.

Status Effect Inducement: This is the biggest abuse of game mechanics I have ever seen on a profile. "Not taking his turn" is now an endless stun? This is, at best, verse-dependent win-condition, and, at best, completely worthless since Chara still managed to kill him through it.

Soul Attacking: In this how does one attack the soul, but also attack the body? If he is hitting the soul, he's hitting the soul unless it is stated he is hitting the body.

Resistance to soul manipulation: Dying instantly to an attack that damages the soul is resistance? I am not resistant to a nuclear bomb by dying to it.

Now to Speed: If he is dodging MHS characters, why isn't he just MHS? Teleportation does not increase one's attack speed.

To Durability: The durability is perfectly justified, but man the description. Tell why he is Building level and don't give a novel as to why his "1 HP" thing may effect that or any "programming oversights." If that truly does need to be mentioned, it is best for a note to be present rather than in the durability justification.

Stamina: He is "Very High" in stamina for falling asleep after a 5 minute battle? The profile even admits he quickly begins sweating and staggering. That isn't even decent stamina.

Intelligence: "Extraordinary Genius." Extraordinary genius... the same level of intelligence as Kars, Bruce Banner, and Iron Man, while trumping Light Yagami, Batman, and Solid Snake. Absolute what. How exactly has he displayed tactical genius? Waiting for his brother and literally everyone to be murdered before giving a care? Falling asleep on the battlefield? Guessing how many times he has killed Chara because of the look on his face? Absolutely none of this warrants anything on this level.

Notable Attacks: This is infested with game mechanics. We can't count ignoring invincibility frames as a legit technique, nor how many times it can hit per second. This generally needs a modernized re-write.

So there ya have it. While I still have a couple thing of Undertale in my sights in the future, this is it for now.

TLDR: A lot needs justification, re-writing, or outright removal on Sans' page. No real TLDR here.

Message Azzy but i agree with this

WeeklyBattles said:

Message Azzy but i agree with this

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Aww, you beat me to it.

Edit: Oh wait, you said message, not messaging. Off I go!

As a note, I think the reason why he has unknown speed is...

He's so faster than Chara/Frisk it's not even funny, so Unknown.

Edwardtruong2006 said:

As a note, I think the reason why he has unknown speed is...

He's so faster than Chara/Frisk it's not even funny, so Unknown.

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But he isn't? Chara can kill him and avoid all of his attacks.

I will... get back to this, when I'm not so tired and have more time to carefully think about everything.

All Undertale monsters damage both the body and soul with their normal attacks. For example, Undyne using the very same attacks she uses to shoot at Frisk' soul to break a bridge. Or the fact that Frisk still receives physical damage when being hurt.

Saikou The Lewd King said:

All Undertale monsters damage both the body and soul with their normal attacks. For example, Undyne using the very same attacks she uses to shoot at Frisk' soul to break a bridge. Or the fact that Frisk still receives physical damage when being hurt.

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At that point is it really soul attacks? Like what exactly justifies the "attacking of the soul" outside of Flowey introducing the Heart hit-indicator as the soul? Is the attack interface even quantifiable?

Asgore is collecting the souls of the humans killed before and they're treated and represented in the same way as Frisk's soul.

Promestein said:

Asgore is collecting the souls of the humans killed before and they're treated and represented in the same way as Frisk's soul.

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Fair point. I'll remove that from the OP.

I don't see anything that debunks monsters attacking the soul in my post.

We have Flowey canonically attacking Asgore's soul in the same way he would attack Frisk's soul in the battle interface. Also, monsters directly affecting Frisk' soul using the color modes and stuff. There isn't any reasons good enough to say they aren't attacking Frisk's soul.

Also the reason why Frisk killed Sans was via breaking game mechanics and Sans didn't see that coming. As he literally dodged Frisk in his sleep.

Regarding Sans' soul resistance, it's pretty much the same reasons as to why he's 8-C. Monsters naturally trade blows with each other with soul-hitting attacks. As Sans is far above Snowdrake's Mom, who can also attack souls with her attacks, he should have some degree (Albeit a very weak one) of soul manip resistance.

Edwardtruong2006 said:

Also the reason why Frisk killed Sans was via breaking game mechanics and Sans didn't see that coming. As he literally dodged Frisk in his sleep.

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What does this address in my arguments?

Was just pointing out the 'killed by Chara/Frisk' point.

I can't argue much more atm. It's kind of late.

@Saikou

It is too low to mention. It's essentially non-existent if he takes soul damage from physical attacks. If anything that is soul vulnerability; if I throw a rock at someone and hurt their soul, that isn't resistance, it is the opposite.

Said physical attacks are from monsters who explicitly hurts Frisk's soul. I don't see how it's "just a physical attack"

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Said physical attacks are from monsters who explicitly hurts Frisk's soul. I don't see how it's "just a physical attack"

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If I am correct, aren't monsters kinda made of their soul? And did they not lose to humans with weapons and get harmed by physical strikes from Frisk/Chara? Or is literally everything in the verse soul-haxxed?

I find the latter very hard to believe.

Monsters are mostly made out of magic, not their souls. They can still be hurt by physical attacks. Truly soul-based monsters like ghosts can't be hit "normally".

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Monsters are mostly made out of magic, not their souls. They can still be hurt by physical attacks. Truly soul-based monsters like ghosts can't be hit "normally".

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Very well, I'll concede that point entirely. Anything else in the OP you'd like to address?

As a note, if Sans's Gravity Manip is removed Papyrus's is going too right?

KR should still be a Status Effect, being pretty much soul poison.

I had big debate with someone else regarding the matter fo Sans' "you can't move" attack. But I still stand firmly that it should be an ability, just a fourth-wall based one. Though it'd likely be more like specific Power Null than anything.

Given that Frisk' soul moving around is treated as actually moving around, Sans holding down the heart in battle should still be Gravity Manip imo, since it limits Frisk' movements.

Seems like Spatial Manip is the explanation for Teleportation but really, it should just be Teleportation.

Reality Warping seems to be for fourth-wall breaking techniques. But really, no, it shouldn't be RW.

@Saikou

Well that being added as a DoT is fine, but that falls under Soul Manipulation.

Anything involving such heavy game mechanics shouldn't be used imo. The Godwoke's Time Manipulation is only "likely" since it involves a turn-based system manipulation. Sans' super-stall attack is way more game mechanics than that, yet it shouldn't be questioned?

Once again, restricting a soul's movement is soul manipulation, not gravity.

Then we agree that Spatial and Reality Warping should be gone.

Spatial Manipulation (possibly Reality warping also) might be because he can blink the player into attack screens like this. Idk, but in Undertale they tell you about game mechanics, like when Sans says he's not going to stand still.

ByAsura said:

Spatial Manipulation (possibly Reality warping also) might be because he can blink the player into attack screens like this.

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Yeah that's still teleportation at best.

We add Status Effect Inducement for abilities that falls under other stuff too, so keeping it shouldn't be a problem.

Because it's canonically used? In a game where game mechanics abilities are downright common? It's not something you can ignore as non-canon game mechanic when it's pretty dang visibly canon. Same should go for ignoring invincibility frames (Not saying IF are canon, just that Sans ignoring durability through this is).

Ok.

I wasn't defending the use game mechanics for Undertale. It's the opposite.

Could Sans also have poison manipulation?

Forgot to answer this, but Blue Mode can't be only Soul Manip given that it affects Frisk's physical body too (Unless we assume that restricting one's soul also restricts their bodies)

Don't know how ignoring invincibility frames would qualify for?Maybe Information or Conceptual Manipulation?He attack Frisk while in their turn.

No way. At best I'd say it's just Sans...attacking really fast in a quick succession, hard enough to ignore durability.

Just wondering

I mean in an actual fight there wouldnt be invincibility frames...

Even assuming there were invincibility frames, ignoring them wouldn't be enough to ignore durability.

Saikou The Lewd King said:

Even assuming there were invincibility frames, ignoring them wouldn't be enough to ignore durability.

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This is correct. Overwhelming someone with an absolute onslaught of hits? Sure. Ignoring durability? Definitely not.

The problem is that Sans (8-C) overwhelming Frisk (7-C to 2-B) with an absolute onslaught of hits somehow actually ignores durability.

And don't say "it's because of soul manip" because I'll hit you.

@Saikou

Then maybe he is a glass cannon? I mean his 1 defense supports that. Also I am 90% sure Frisk wasn't anywhere close to 2-B when he fought him. Also he would still hurt Frisk even if he didn't ignore invincibility frames, so that isn't really an argument as to why that would be durability negation.

Not sure why you're suggesting that Sans has 7-C AP. His ATK is also explicitly of 1 and barely does any damage to Frisk with normal attacks.

I mean, that's how he ignores durability game mechanics-speaking. I just have no idea how to apply this normally, considering that IF aren't canon (And even if they were, wouldn't allow Sans to ignore durability.)

ALso, how do monsters absorb souls if they destroy them when killing a human? Just asking.

Unknown via hax: I agree this should be removed.

Reality Warping: Can be removed if his other powers are clarified, as it's pretty nebulous.

Spatial Manipulation: Partially there due to things like his creation and warping of objects, as well as his teleportation of himself and others. It should be used to help clarify uses of his abilities aside from just saying "Spatial Manipulation", though.

Gravity Manipulation: He explicitly tosses Frisk around at the end of the fight, and can also change the way gravity works for them during it (the latter of which one could argue is part of Spatial Manipulation instead, I suppose). This would not cause Frisk heavy damage if Sans was just doing some random thing with Frisk's SOUL and their body wasn't moving.

Alternate Timeline Awareness: This also shouldn't be there. He even mentions that the way he knows about them is through some sort of study and getting reports, and he seems to just be good enough as to estimate how many times he's killed you via the look on your face. The most concrete thing is that he feels something "off" about Frisk after they're possessed by Chara post-genocide ending, but this isn't really a power. He does show 4th Wall Awareness, though. That should probably be there.

Status Effect Inducement: "This is the biggest abuse of game mechanics I have ever seen on a profile." You must be new to Undertale, friend. A lot of "game mechanics" are explicitly part of the verse. This isn't some random guess based on what happens in the game. This is literally a character flat out saying, "I'm not going to take a turn, so you aren't ever going to hit me". To say it's also completely worthless because Chara managed to kill him through it is entirely ignoring context. Chara killed him through it by quite literally breaking the game after Sans fell asleep. Considering this is the same character who one-shot Asgore and Flowey before completely destroying the game in the following minutes after this fight, that's something very much within their power. On top of all this, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use this power in a Sans fight, as it's just assumed to be conditional to his own reality.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation: Sans has this because nearly everything in UT does. He dies because he has 1 HP and is being hit by a hilariously stronger enemy.

Speed: "why isn't he just MHS?" This has been covered multiple times, I believe. His speed is "Unknown" not because he dodged a MHS character, but because in every reset, even when that MHS character knew exactly where Sans would be, even when they knew exactly what he was going to do, and even if he was asleep, they couldn't land a hit on him. It took breaking the rules of the game itself for them to actually do so. He's ludicrously above MHS, but the problem is we don't quite know to what degree.

Durability: I have no idea why or when this "programming oversight" shit was added, but man, that should definitely be removed.

Stamina: This should be changed, yes. The issue is that his exhaustion seems to be a trick, at least partially. After he becomes so tired that he can no longer fight and falls asleep, which is what allows Chara/Frisk/The Anomaly to break the game in the first place, he dodges and starts to laugh at them for thinking that would actually work (before being killed by them immediately breaking the game even further by striking him entirely out of sequence). I do agree his stamina should cap at something like "Average", though.

Intelligence: Don't know when exactly this was changed, but I'm pretty sure I initially had him at something like "Incredibly high" (which I don't think we use, any more). The reasons right now are pretty bad, but he should still be a genius, all things considered. He's shown to be smart enough to make...something that allows him to analyze the space-time continuum itself, as well as other timelines. This is the entire reason he even knows about resets and that anything is wrong in the world, while everyone else (including Alphys, presumably) is unaware. He also built some kind of (currently broke) machine in his workshop, which is suggested to be a time machine (the conversation and actions required to gain access to this room support this, but it cannot be guaranteed as it is not flat out stated. Maybe it's the thing that analyzes the timelines, instead?).

Notable Attacks: "This is infested with game mechanics." We're talking about a character who literally fights you with game mechanics in a game where a notable chunk of game mechanics are part of the actual universe. Though I do agree it needs to be updated with parts rewritten.

"For full disclosure I genuinely hate Sans and think he is, bar none, the most wanked character on this site."

Eehhhhhhh I think Godzilla might have him beat.