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Considering Sans has gotten his shit kicked in by Tier 8 characters and has had some of the most losses ever recorded on his profile while people have unironically tried to make Godzilla 1-A?Edwardtruong2006 said:
Yeah probably. lmao
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Sans Profile Clean-up
- Thread starter Assaltwaffle
- Start date
Yeah probably. lmao
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@Azzy
Spatial Manipulation: Wouldn't teleporting things around and controlling the battlefield with that still just be high-end teleportation? Can you provide some evidence for full-on spatial manip; that is a pretty potent power to have without justification or an explanation of its limited functionality.
Gravity Manip: Wouldn't ragdolling someone just be good telekinesis though? Is there something particular about his throwing around that makes it outright gravity rather than TK?
Status Effects: But going by this logic, any character who can manipulate turn-based mechanics or pause games has an infinite stalemate button. Me going AFK in a TBS game and coming back doesn't give me a 2 hour stun, it's just game mechanics. I really think breaking game mechanics is outright unquantifiable in an out-of-verse fight.
Resistance to Soul Manip: But I mean 1 HP means he dies from literally everything. And if all monsters have this from having their souls damaged all the time, it still isn't justified. You shouldn't have resistance to something by being hurt by it.
Speed: OK, but why not just "At least MHS" rather than outright Unknown? He would have to be nearly unfathomably faster to break out of all semblance of MHS, which he clearly isn't since it is indeed possible, however unlikely, for Chara to dodge everything Sans has.
Spatial Manipulation: Wouldn't teleporting things around and controlling the battlefield with that still just be high-end teleportation? Can you provide some evidence for full-on spatial manip; that is a pretty potent power to have without justification or an explanation of its limited functionality.
Gravity Manip: Wouldn't ragdolling someone just be good telekinesis though? Is there something particular about his throwing around that makes it outright gravity rather than TK?
Status Effects: But going by this logic, any character who can manipulate turn-based mechanics or pause games has an infinite stalemate button. Me going AFK in a TBS game and coming back doesn't give me a 2 hour stun, it's just game mechanics. I really think breaking game mechanics is outright unquantifiable in an out-of-verse fight.
Resistance to Soul Manip: But I mean 1 HP means he dies from literally everything. And if all monsters have this from having their souls damaged all the time, it still isn't justified. You shouldn't have resistance to something by being hurt by it.
Speed: OK, but why not just "At least MHS" rather than outright Unknown? He would have to be nearly unfathomably faster to break out of all semblance of MHS, which he clearly isn't since it is indeed possible, however unlikely, for Chara to dodge everything Sans has.
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Tbf being three times faster than Tsunderplane (Mach 3000+) would be enough to be Sub-Rel, so Sans being above MHS+ isn't too farfetched
UT human souls can survive the destruction of the body thanks to DETERMINATIONDMB 1 said:
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How is Tsunderplane MHS+ anyway? The calc I'm looking at is... something...Kaltias said:
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But the "lightning" is a cartoon-ish small bolt that looks and behaves nothing like normal lightning.Kaltias said:
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Bump
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Bring Up My Place (I think)
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Because I want more attention to this post but have nothing to add personally.
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@Assalt
Spatial Manipulation: Like I said, this is just used to expand upon his other abilities. It's not saying something like "Sans can reduce an object's length to zero". It can be grouped under Teleportation, which is a subset of spatial manipulation, if you prefer, but the explanation will just be longer.
Gravity Manipulation: The fact that he can change gravity so that you're suddenly standing on the ceiling or one of the walls is something he does constantly throughout the fight, as well as making you "fall upwards".
Status Effect: Except you leaving the computer isn't an in-universe attack. "that's right. it's literally nothing. and it's not going to be anything, either. heh heh heh... ya get it? i know i can't beat you. one of your turns... you're just gonna kill me. so, uh. i've decided... it's not gonna BE your turn. ever. i'm just gonna keep having MY turn until you give up. even if it means we have to stand here until the end of time. capiche?" I've never seen anyone use this in any of his threads, because the OP has never made it clear with something like "battle takes place in the UT verse". It's still a power he has.
Resistance to Soul Manipulation: 1 HP means he dies to anything that inflicts actual damage to him in terms of a fight. It's not like literally any minor harm will kill him. As for monsters resisting Soul Manipulation, I'm not sure why the "Minor" before it was removed, but yes, they have it. Monsters are made of magic, and thus their body and soul are far closer than those of a human. If someone goes "I'm going to use an attack on your very soul" and you can go "I block it with my spear", that's a degree of resistance to soul attacks. If something that would normally go through a regular character's defenses only inflicts the same damage to you as if someone hit you normally, that is also a degree of resistance.
Speed: Primarily because he's the character he's dodging in his sleep is only about 3x away from being sub-rel.
Spatial Manipulation: Like I said, this is just used to expand upon his other abilities. It's not saying something like "Sans can reduce an object's length to zero". It can be grouped under Teleportation, which is a subset of spatial manipulation, if you prefer, but the explanation will just be longer.
Gravity Manipulation: The fact that he can change gravity so that you're suddenly standing on the ceiling or one of the walls is something he does constantly throughout the fight, as well as making you "fall upwards".
Status Effect: Except you leaving the computer isn't an in-universe attack. "that's right. it's literally nothing. and it's not going to be anything, either. heh heh heh... ya get it? i know i can't beat you. one of your turns... you're just gonna kill me. so, uh. i've decided... it's not gonna BE your turn. ever. i'm just gonna keep having MY turn until you give up. even if it means we have to stand here until the end of time. capiche?" I've never seen anyone use this in any of his threads, because the OP has never made it clear with something like "battle takes place in the UT verse". It's still a power he has.
Resistance to Soul Manipulation: 1 HP means he dies to anything that inflicts actual damage to him in terms of a fight. It's not like literally any minor harm will kill him. As for monsters resisting Soul Manipulation, I'm not sure why the "Minor" before it was removed, but yes, they have it. Monsters are made of magic, and thus their body and soul are far closer than those of a human. If someone goes "I'm going to use an attack on your very soul" and you can go "I block it with my spear", that's a degree of resistance to soul attacks. If something that would normally go through a regular character's defenses only inflicts the same damage to you as if someone hit you normally, that is also a degree of resistance.
Speed: Primarily because he's the character he's dodging in his sleep is only about 3x away from being sub-rel.
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Been over this one a while back I believe, but it looking cartoon-ish for the battle is part of the style, and functions partially as an abstraction. The lightning comes from a cloud of volcanic ash generated by Vulkan, who is a miniature walking volcano. This makes it extremely similar in nature to a dirty thunderstorm. Magic in Undertale functions exactly like what it represents. Toriel uses her fire magic to cook. Woshua's water magic is...well, water. In this case we don't just have a volcano enemy shooting lightning at you, but directly creating a cloud of volcanic ash, which then creates the lightning.Assaltwaffle said:
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@Azzy
Does a dirty thunderstorm produce the same 440,000 m/s lightning like normal cloud-to-ground? And isn't this an insane outlier in a verse without any other speed feats?
Spatial: I'd prefer it be grouped under Teleportation, since all his showings of this power are applications of teleportation. We can just explain he can rapid-fire Teleportation of himself and enemies.
Gravity Manip: I just am having a hard time with the fact that he can make gravity effect a mass-less metaphysical entity... I mean maybe it is legit, but it makes zero sense.
Status Efffect: Well it was being used in another Sans thread (Sans vs Duke Fishron), and that's the reason I brought it up. If we make a note saying it wouldn't work without abuse of game mechanics I am fine with that. However, I still think it is a stretch to call this a legit power; it really isn't that different than an AI bugging and never conceding its turn. It's just an intentional "never moving" based on a 4th wall break rather than an accidental, yet completely possible, occurrence. Can we really call it in-universe if it relies on game-mechanics that the vast majority of entities in the verse do not acknowledge as existent?
Soul Resistance: That actually makes sense the way you explained it. Being able to block it when it would normally be impossible to block (even if it will hurt if it connects) is still some defense against soul attacks. That said, Minor should be re-added.
Speed: That's still just "at least." Amo is physically superior to everyone in-verse by a ludicrous amount, but he still has "at least" and not "unknown." We have a baseline for his speed, he is just unquantifiably above it.
Does a dirty thunderstorm produce the same 440,000 m/s lightning like normal cloud-to-ground? And isn't this an insane outlier in a verse without any other speed feats?
Spatial: I'd prefer it be grouped under Teleportation, since all his showings of this power are applications of teleportation. We can just explain he can rapid-fire Teleportation of himself and enemies.
Gravity Manip: I just am having a hard time with the fact that he can make gravity effect a mass-less metaphysical entity... I mean maybe it is legit, but it makes zero sense.
Status Efffect: Well it was being used in another Sans thread (Sans vs Duke Fishron), and that's the reason I brought it up. If we make a note saying it wouldn't work without abuse of game mechanics I am fine with that. However, I still think it is a stretch to call this a legit power; it really isn't that different than an AI bugging and never conceding its turn. It's just an intentional "never moving" based on a 4th wall break rather than an accidental, yet completely possible, occurrence. Can we really call it in-universe if it relies on game-mechanics that the vast majority of entities in the verse do not acknowledge as existent?
Soul Resistance: That actually makes sense the way you explained it. Being able to block it when it would normally be impossible to block (even if it will hurt if it connects) is still some defense against soul attacks. That said, Minor should be re-added.
Speed: That's still just "at least." Amo is physically superior to everyone in-verse by a ludicrous amount, but he still has "at least" and not "unknown." We have a baseline for his speed, he is just unquantifiably above it.
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How can something lie outside a pool of data that only has that one number on it?
Literally every instance of movement in combat can be classified as a point in a set of data. And none of them are even close to MHS outside of the one lightning occurrence.
Literally every instance of movement in combat can be classified as a point in a set of data. And none of them are even close to MHS outside of the one lightning occurrence.
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This is completely dubious. Moving in combat at any speed is absolutely a feat, even if it is a small one. Therefore any combat instance is a point in a set of data. The only reason we think that the lightning dodging is a feat is because we are taking the lightning to be real-life functional lightning that moves at 440,000 m/s, even though everything else in the series seems to move at normal speeds. Nothing else in the series even begins to hint at MHS+ speeds, even if you look at feats and implications.DMUA said:
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If I recall correctly the Starfury isn't the only instance of FTL travel/abilities in Terraria. If it is, then I'd say so, yes. And this comes from a Terraria fan.DMUA said:
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And you'd say the same for this guy?
And him?
Do you know how many verses would get downgraded from the line of thinking?
And him?
Do you know how many verses would get downgraded from the line of thinking?
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Just going to point out that Starfury isn't mftl, its done via a magic (summoning them from the asteroid belt to shooting out of his hand)
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Seems like Jason is consistent in high speed.
As for the Saltborn, I'm guessing there are more lightning users than Mad Alchemist. If he is the only being who used lightning in the series then maybe.
As for the Saltborn, I'm guessing there are more lightning users than Mad Alchemist. If he is the only being who used lightning in the series then maybe.
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Starfury doesn't project out of his hand; it calls them in from the sky like an airstrike.WeeklyBattles said:
Edit: If I am recalling incorrectly and the stars don't get called in from the asteroid belt then we may need to look at Terraria's speed.
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I mean, the fact that you need a degree of consistency is more or less the rule.
Otherwise Relativistic Homura Akemi, 3-A Kratos etc.
Otherwise Relativistic Homura Akemi, 3-A Kratos etc.
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It's actually not stated that theyre called from the asteroid belt, just that stars fall from the sky...
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@DMUA
If characters are clearly showing extremely fast feats, then having an even faster feat makes sense. If a character has zero showings of fast feats, but then has the same feat as the other character, it would be an outlier for the latter but not the former.
I'm not going to drag in an outlier or standard error calculator, since that would be dubious here, but if you show nothing but human feats and then dodge lightning at random, that is a problem. If you can clearly go superhuman and dodge machinegun fire or run across the country, then dodging lightning makes sense in-context.
If characters are clearly showing extremely fast feats, then having an even faster feat makes sense. If a character has zero showings of fast feats, but then has the same feat as the other character, it would be an outlier for the latter but not the former.
I'm not going to drag in an outlier or standard error calculator, since that would be dubious here, but if you show nothing but human feats and then dodge lightning at random, that is a problem. If you can clearly go superhuman and dodge machinegun fire or run across the country, then dodging lightning makes sense in-context.
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Jason only has 1 feat on that level. His next best feat is keeping up with a Mach 3 giant, and he also scales to Percy's mach something bullet timing feat. By that logic, you'd be downgrading a lot of verses, yes.
EDIT: I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with Assalt, before anyone takes it that way.
EDIT: I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with Assalt, before anyone takes it that way.
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I'm not an expert in Undertale, but we definitely need to improve Undertale profiles, especially Sans's profile.
1 HP is probably just some mechanics that is used for extremely rapidly decreasing Sans's health bar in combination with 9,999,999 points of damage (If that's exactly 9,999,999 points of damage visually, but what is the exact value for that 9,999,999-points damage? I'm lazy to find an answer). Don't take my words seriously.
About speed... Well, I don't know! The only thing that I know is that I can't really apply that lightning speed due to lightning being game mechanics and it's just an additional type of bullets, so you won't be bored. Again, don't take my words seriously.
I think that the information on the profile is mostly taken from the Death Battle Fanon's page.
1 HP is probably just some mechanics that is used for extremely rapidly decreasing Sans's health bar in combination with 9,999,999 points of damage (If that's exactly 9,999,999 points of damage visually, but what is the exact value for that 9,999,999-points damage? I'm lazy to find an answer). Don't take my words seriously.
About speed... Well, I don't know! The only thing that I know is that I can't really apply that lightning speed due to lightning being game mechanics and it's just an additional type of bullets, so you won't be bored. Again, don't take my words seriously.
I think that the information on the profile is mostly taken from the Death Battle Fanon's page.
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@Assalt
It is technically cloud to ground, and I have found nothing that says it's not comparable in speed to normal c-t-g lightning, but I'll try to verify this. Also considering Lesser Dog, a much earlier enemy, can stretch its neck at Hypersonic speeds just from getting excited (yes, this is somehow an actual feat in the game) far earlier in the game, I doubt this would be an outlier.
Spatial: I'm fine with that.
Gravity Manipulation: I mean, he affects SOULs with his other abilities as well, so the gravity manipulation applying there isn't too far fetched. It's also pretty clearly demonstrated, so I'd say it's legit.
Status Effect: The reason few people but Sans acknowledge stuff like this is because he's one of the only ones in the verse who is aware he's part of a "game" being played by some sort of higher, reality warping entity. Along with Flowey and Chara, I'm fairly certain he's the only one aware of the Player's existence and who actually speaks with them. His fight purposefully has him abusing "game mechanics", because those are the rules of his reality and he's found ways to exploit them. But yeah, it can totally be noted to likely only work in the UT verse, which I thought most people had agreed on for years, now.
Soul Resistance: I agree. No idea why it was taken off, but it does help clarify the inherent minor defenses monsters (and Frisk) would have against certain attacks.
Speed: How fast is he shown to be in comparison to them, though? Because that's the main reason his speed is so hard to gauge.
@Skalt
I'm pretty sure this page predates that one by a significant period of time (created very shortly after the game came out), unless someone added some stuff, later on.
It is technically cloud to ground, and I have found nothing that says it's not comparable in speed to normal c-t-g lightning, but I'll try to verify this. Also considering Lesser Dog, a much earlier enemy, can stretch its neck at Hypersonic speeds just from getting excited (yes, this is somehow an actual feat in the game) far earlier in the game, I doubt this would be an outlier.
Spatial: I'm fine with that.
Gravity Manipulation: I mean, he affects SOULs with his other abilities as well, so the gravity manipulation applying there isn't too far fetched. It's also pretty clearly demonstrated, so I'd say it's legit.
Status Effect: The reason few people but Sans acknowledge stuff like this is because he's one of the only ones in the verse who is aware he's part of a "game" being played by some sort of higher, reality warping entity. Along with Flowey and Chara, I'm fairly certain he's the only one aware of the Player's existence and who actually speaks with them. His fight purposefully has him abusing "game mechanics", because those are the rules of his reality and he's found ways to exploit them. But yeah, it can totally be noted to likely only work in the UT verse, which I thought most people had agreed on for years, now.
Soul Resistance: I agree. No idea why it was taken off, but it does help clarify the inherent minor defenses monsters (and Frisk) would have against certain attacks.
Speed: How fast is he shown to be in comparison to them, though? Because that's the main reason his speed is so hard to gauge.
@Skalt
I'm pretty sure this page predates that one by a significant period of time (created very shortly after the game came out), unless someone added some stuff, later on.
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@Azzy
Gravity: Well if you feel so strongly about it I'll trust your judgement.
Speed: Amon is physically superior to everyone by an incredible margin. He is literally the size of a skyscraper and razes a city in seconds. But, he is never seen directly moving, so we only know that his physiology has all the positive characteristics of all the Protoss and Zerg, making him faster than the protagonists.
Gravity: Well if you feel so strongly about it I'll trust your judgement.
Speed: Amon is physically superior to everyone by an incredible margin. He is literally the size of a skyscraper and razes a city in seconds. But, he is never seen directly moving, so we only know that his physiology has all the positive characteristics of all the Protoss and Zerg, making him faster than the protagonists.
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@Assalt
Speed (Which I guess is the only one left? lol): That's a bit different from this case, though. As opposed to just knowing "this character is faster but the to what degree is unknown", this is a character who can dodge someone else who:
A) is able to reset indefinitely, learning exactly what he'll do and where he'll be, each time.
B) had the chance to swing at him while he was asleep.
C) had to break the rules of their reality just to land a proper hit.
Sans' reaction speed advantage is absolutely ludicrous, and considering the character he's dodging like this is only about 3x from sub-rel, it doesn't seem possible for him to actually be lower than that.
Speed (Which I guess is the only one left? lol): That's a bit different from this case, though. As opposed to just knowing "this character is faster but the to what degree is unknown", this is a character who can dodge someone else who:
A) is able to reset indefinitely, learning exactly what he'll do and where he'll be, each time.
B) had the chance to swing at him while he was asleep.
C) had to break the rules of their reality just to land a proper hit.
Sans' reaction speed advantage is absolutely ludicrous, and considering the character he's dodging like this is only about 3x from sub-rel, it doesn't seem possible for him to actually be lower than that.
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@Azzy
Reaction speed for him is clearly great, but his combat isn't insane. Even if the player couldn't reset, it is still possible for a great gamer to get through Sans' gauntlet of attacks on the first run.
And yeah, it looks like what I have presented has been accepted or countered enough to be satisfactory, so Speed is all that's left.
Reaction speed for him is clearly great, but his combat isn't insane. Even if the player couldn't reset, it is still possible for a great gamer to get through Sans' gauntlet of attacks on the first run.
And yeah, it looks like what I have presented has been accepted or countered enough to be satisfactory, so Speed is all that's left.
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@Assalt
Yeah, his reaction and attack speed are drastically different, with the former being hilariously above the latter (which fits with him being a more passive character).
Maybe it should say something like "At least MHS+ attack speed, Unknown reaction speed"? IDK.
Yeah, his reaction and attack speed are drastically different, with the former being hilariously above the latter (which fits with him being a more passive character).
Maybe it should say something like "At least MHS+ attack speed, Unknown reaction speed"? IDK.
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@Azzy
Sounds better than what he is currentlu on. Maybe "At least MHS+ attack speed, higher reaction speed"?
So what are all the conclusions we have drawn from our discussion so far?
Sounds better than what he is currentlu on. Maybe "At least MHS+ attack speed, higher reaction speed"?
So what are all the conclusions we have drawn from our discussion so far?
VoidGoji
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Just explaining the "Ignoring invincibility" thing.
The Player gets invincibility frames by taking damage that equals 2 HP or above per hit. Sans is just using a total of 40 hits that deals damage equal to 1 HP. He isn't ignoring, he isn't even activating the frames.
The Player gets invincibility frames by taking damage that equals 2 HP or above per hit. Sans is just using a total of 40 hits that deals damage equal to 1 HP. He isn't ignoring, he isn't even activating the frames.
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