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The Dark Tower: Issues and Revisions

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MrKingOfNegativity

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Continued from here.

The Dark Tower's top-tier profiles need some ironing out. There are a number of issues in regards to statistics, powers and overall justifications, and they're currently affecting a number of profiles that we have on the wiki as well as the status of other profiles that will be added to the verse in the future.

I'll sum up the issues below.

Resolved/Agreed Upo

  • Los' needs to be downgraded.
  • The Crimson King's "Plot Shields" do not actually exist.
  • Resistance to Existence Erasure for Los' does not actually exist.
  • Bessa's High 1-B empowerment does not actually exist.
  • Tiering for Ga (1-A)
Under Dispute

  • Tiering for Los' (Settled on Unknow for now, though this may change)
  • Tiering for Dis
  • Tiering for Bessa
  • Discrepancies involving Dis' justifications
  • Dimensionality issues (Regarding how creatures/residents of the Prim and Todash Darkness should be handled)
  • Cosmological issues (Regarding the nature of some of the gods, deities, locations and concepts of the verse)
Unsure

  • Dis' plot manipulation
...

I believe we should attempt to address some of these issues in the thread itself rather than load down the OP with a mountain of text and scans like I usually tend towards doing. Hopefully this will be the thread where everything is resolved to the point of no more reasonable doubt.
 
You really should just make this a general DT revisions thread. We still need to determine Gan's tier.
 
You may be right about that. I also managed to locate some quotes relevant to Gan while I was poring through the books again, so I'll share those later.

That said, we should still take things one at a time. The Crimson King is the one with the most blatant problems right now (Gan's only problem is his tier, which is more of an issue with the requirements for 1-A than anything else), and the decisions we make regarding Los' are going to affect a fair number of future profiles and how we handle them.
 
I agree with the above revisions, the reasoning listed on the other thread seems solid
 
I've edited the OP to include some of the other problems we seem to have run into with this verse. Or at least the more major ones.
 
So the tiering is to be debated..

Well, iirc, Matt and Aeyu posted evidence in the original thread, not sure if it is fair or not.

At these points, I am personally neutral for now, open to be swayed.
 
I'm going to be touching on that in a moment. Some of the quotes we've been using are being taken out of context, which is part of where much of our confusion is stemming from.

I already posted in the last thread (within the final few replies before it was closed) why I don't think Los' should be Low 2-C or Immeasurable, but I'm pretty sure Matt still has some disagreement with that.

As for Ram Abbalah/"True" CK/etc., it's like I said right before making this. There is some evidence of High 1-B that I've found which meshes with some of the quotes we already have, but a few other things still need to be clarified in regards to him.
 
@King

The issue with Gan when I did the downgrade was that I was being arbitrary with 1-A, when issues of perspective would make him 1-A regardless. It's more of an assumption to say there were dimensions in a void where nothing existed which Gan then spun from his navel (created the concepts of) when such things previously did not exist and there is no real reason to assume they did, especially when it is considered than Gan was "the author of all that was", and via perspectives, existed above every narrative hierarchy in the verse (something that doesn't need to rely on the comics to verify). This has been more than enough reason for solid 1-A in the past, as it is now. (Gan would no longer be the weakest 1-A, either). This is all of course ignoring the fact that Gan rose from a void beyond everything (Does not say he was created by, but he arose from the Prim and was "first born" of it). Dis should get Concept Manipulation as he was going to repurpose the nature of the Tower into something he chose after the Beams were destroyed. This also should set in place his High 1-B key alongside any other evidence; he was going to remake reality in his image were the Beams to be collapsed. If anything the Tower should be At least High 1-B not for its structure, but for its form being able to trap the likes of the King, who could restructure reality were the Beams to collapse and may have existed beyond the world (The Tower also encompassed all levels of reality, as well as all dimensions, which btw if not "held together" CK would have been able to manipulate, and infinite dimensions are explicitly named when the Big Combination is destroyed)

If anything Los should simply go back to being Unknown as he as a lot of contradictory data (The comparison is to someone like Sans) and the data should all be summarized without the higher interpretations removed.
 
Aeyu has brought up some very good points, so I'll take her side.
 
Well, the Tower would be staying the same tier no matter what at this point. And in all honesty, I don't see much reason why Gan shouldn't be 1-A again, but I don't know enough about the distinctions between that and High 1-B to make the call for certain.

As for Los', the issue with him is that the info surrounding him isn't always very clear in its meaning, so an Unknow tier might be the smartest option for the time being.

I'll get to Dis in a moment.
 
I am fine with Unknow for Los' if we have so little to go by.

As I've said before, I don't really have much of a problem with 1-A Gan.

Disagree heavily with "At least High 1-B" for the Tower, which I'm pretty sure I've said before, because it's literally just scaling the Tower to itself to say it's more complex than it actually is.

I want to see the potential info used for tiering Dis.
 
At least High 1-B generally takes into account transcendence of dimensional constructs, but not explicitly at the perspective level of 1-A. The Tower encompassing these dimensions as well as already being above an infinite infinity of worlds with infinite dimensions existing in each (Big Combination WAS a thing, regardless) seems more than enough to warrant the At least.

Gan sees the entirety of the below world as fiction, as he is literally explained as being "the author of all that was". That is definitely at least an entire layer of reality above the concepts of the lower realm, which he created and the Dark Tower maintains, and he's possibly beyond an infinitude of these perspectives, being called a "power beyond all power". Thus, the nature of the Prim doesn't really matter as much, and can be verified to be dimensionless simply due to perspectives.

I agree with the conclusion about Los'.
 
I don't think many things that would otherwise be "At least High 1-B" are actually rated like that. The Tower meets the requirements for being above baseline High 1-B, but that's about it.
 
The Downstreamers (who also existed above an infinitude of infinite dimensions and infinite hierarchies of worlds, which is exactly the same as the Tower) were also rated as At least High 1-B. I would apply that to its AP only; I would leave the Dura as only High Hyperverse level. This would also take into account the Tower encompassing even the Todash Darkness, which exists "beyond reality".
 
I'm pretty sure the reasons agreed to for the Downstreamers were significantly more complex than that, unless said reasons were wrong.
 
It was due to the DS being comparable to the description of a Type IV multiverse, which would take into account all possible worlds under all possible maths, with presumably some being of a dimensionless nature. This is actually a similar case, as the Tower is said to encompass everything:

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?..."

"In one sense he was not in the Agincourt at all, not in Point Venuti, not in Mendocino County, not in California, not in the American Territories, not in those other Territories; but he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman, it seemed, was much more than even his father had believed. It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds.Jack Saywer was everywhere; Jack Sawyer was everything. A blade of grass on a world fifty thousand worlds down the chain from earth died of thirst on an inconsequential plain somewhere in the center of a continent which roughly corresponded in position to Africa; Jack died with that blade of grass. In another world, dragons were copulating in the center of a cloud high above the planet, and the fiery breath of their ecstasy mixed with the cold air and precipitated rain and floods on the ground below. Jack was the he-dragon; Jack was the she-dragon; Jack was the sperm; Jack was the egg. Far out in the ether a million universes away, three specks of dust floated near one another in interstellar space. Jack was the dust, and Jack was the space between. Galaxies unreeled around his head like long spools of paper, and fate punched each in random patterns, turning them into macro-cosmic player-piano tapes which would play everything from ragtime to funeral dirges. Jack's happy teeth bit an orange; Jack's unhappy flesh screamed as the teeth tore him open. He was a trillion dust-kitties under a billion beds.

He was the powdered henshit in Buddy Parkins's nose, he was the trembling hairs that would soon cause Buddy Parkins to sneeze; he was the sneeze; he was the germs in the sneeze; he was the atoms in the germs; he was the tachyons in the atoms travelling backward through time toward the big bang at the start of creation.
He saw a googolplex of sparrows in a googolplex of worlds and marked the fall or the well-being of each.
He died in the Gehenna of Territories ore-pit mines.
He lived as a flu-virus in Etheridge's tie."
 
I feel like we've been over this before, but something being similarly defined with the basics of a Type IV multiverse, without explicitly being stated to be directly comparable in the actual canon, is not grounds for scaling something to "At least High 1-B".
 
It's less about the wording and more about the premise IMO. I'm not trying to wank, I promise. The Tower encompasses an infinitude of worlds which contain infinitudes of worlds in them. There is confirmed to be infinite dimensions. (Something not even Manifold states) The Tower holds all of these constructs and concepts in place, as assigned by Gan, and is the nexus of all reality, with a room containing the "Godhead". I think that is the rationale for At least, not comparing to Type IV.
 
Going by a large chunk of our current High 1-Bs, that is "just" High 1-B, unless we make the changes to the other profiles, as well.
 
This is mostly by going off of hierarchy of why things are defined as "At least", such as why CK is *currently* defined as such, as well as DS and the DC At least High 1-B's, though they may have different reasons why. I personally cannot think of any other High 1-B's off the top of my head that transcend an infinitude of infinite dimensions, but if they do, then maybe they *should* receive said rating. Again, I'm not trying to be troublesome, just explain a perspective.
 
It stands atop the hierarchy of infinite worlds which are infinitely layered and have infinite dimensions though:

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?..."

And holds all their concepts together:

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White"

Plus, it's an emanation of Gan, so there's that, too.
 
That is the requirement for being High 1-B in the first place + Conceptual Manipulation.

None of that describes "High 1-B x infinity x infinity x infinity x infinity etc." or something of that nature.
 
You don't think already possessing infinite dimensions within it is enough? I thought that was the only requirement for High 1-B.
 
It is. But not for "At least High 1-B". The things that exist on those dimensions' levels are irrelevant, and encompassing all of that/holding it together is still High 1-B, but to a slightly higher degree.
 
Well, another argument for that was being able to restrain CK, even as Dis. I still think that the interpretation of Dis being on par with Gan due to like Bessa being called "a part of him" should be taken into consideration.
 
We can't assume CK = similar in nature to true Gan, therefore the Tower can contain beings comparable to true Gan, therefore the Tower is "At least High 1-B". It does not actually have anything putting it above High 1-B, and if the true CK is restrained within, and does not have any quotes of actually being a threat to Gan, he would just be a slightly lower degree of High 1-B.
 
Again, I think both sides make solid arguments, but I can definitely see what Deena means when she speaks of the Dark Tower being above regular High 1-B.

The Beams allow for all possible configurations of Spatial and Temporal Dimensions to exist. The Tower has multiple staircases each with infinite steps, and a multiverse in one step can exist inside a grain of sand inside a higher step.

It is far more than just "Infinite spatial dimensions".
 
I want to point out that Bessa is "a part of" Gan because she/The Rose was literally born from a drop of Gan/The Tower's blood after the Old Ones' civil war left existence in bad shape.

I also want to point out that the Tower does have higher dimensions contained within each "step" of itself. As in, each singular universe contains higher "levels" that have certain beings living on them, with beings on lower levels being incapable of fully comprehending those on higher levels.

The quotes that were linked above aren't what proves that, though. None of the quotes linked so far in the thread are meant to serve as evidence of that.
 
@King

That and the perspectives of the Tower when going up its infinite steps are the main reason for the proposed At least High 1-B rating, not to mention what Matt said.

I think Bessa should be 1-A due to being the only one that can interfere with Gan's power reliably.

Additionally, the Rose is just like the Tower, and the fields of Can'-Ka No Rey (the field of Roses outside the Tower) were essentially all Tower like structures that were helping to protect the Beams iirc. (Specifically the Rose held kept safe by the Tet Corp being compared to the Tower's existence in that it had infinity inside of it)
 
The problem with that is that, even with those details, the Tower itself does not appear to "transcend" dimensions or dimensionality. It simply contains a high degree of infinity, which (if I'm looking into it properly) is just a higher end of High 1-B than most, not full-on 1-A or "at least" High 1-B

I find Bessa being 1-A to be iffy. She can oppose Gan enough to alter a person's fate. But so can the Crimson King (as seen with Ed Deepneau), and he is almost certainly not 1-A, as we've already gone over. Furthermore, her existence came from the smallest fragment of Gan, and she is only the goddess of khef/life-force, whereas the latter is the god of all existence. And everything regarding Bessa being superior to the latter (giving Patrick the power to erase his avatar and such) has more or less been proven to be false in the last thread.

I don't remember this one ever being stated, but seeing as I haven't hunted down quotes for the Rose yet, my opinion is neutral.
 
You don't get my point. I am advocating for an At least High 1-B rating. As in, said character exceeds what is necessary for High 1-B and starts to go into more speculative areas. Hence, no possibly 1-A next to that. Only Gan gets the full on 1-A, with maybe Bessa having it.

And I'm just going to say that opposing a 1-A via fate sounds very similar to something Destiny of the Endless did, prompting on an At least High 1-B rating even more, but I think 1-A still sounds feasible with the nature of the Rose being just like the Tower and her transcending the Rose, being its "Spirit" being exactly what is mentioned when Gan's nature in relation to the Tower is stated.
 
But the only reason an "at least" would even be put next to the rating would be in accordance with the possibility of it either being the next tier up or affecting something within the next tier. In this case, the possibility isn't really there; the Tower doesn't have any features that suggest 1-A, or anything above a very high-end High 1-B.

I can maybe understand an "at least High 1-B" rating for Bessa herself, since the waters for her are generally quite murky. I don't think she has enough evidence for a solid 1-A rating though, since as was said before, being comparable in nature to Gan wouldn't necessarily equate to being comparable to him in power, and the fact that a small drop of his essence was what gave her life suggests that she is nowhere near his level.
 
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