- 7,413
- 3,301
Before we proceed:
This revision is divided into two parts. I've put it in collapsed text below.
(I) Jedi/Sith combat speeds & reflexes are literally lightning quick:
Per a couple of calc done by Kepekley23, we've seen Mach 400 to 700 feats from the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku as well as a Mach 2,400 feat from Mace Windu.
Here be the calcs:
The Mach 400 to 700 feats.
The Mach 2,400 feat.
Thread where Force Lightning being as fast as natural lightning was discussed.
Basically, the Disney Canon Jedi & Sith and other strong Force Adepts will get [Subsonic movement speeds and MHS to MHS+ combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition] in place of what we have at present.
Now on one of Kepekley's blogs, I mentioned that Windu's feat would not scale to everyone. Now I said that because I was then of the opinion that we should scale Windu's MHS+ feat only to Yoda and Palpatine (no explanation needed) as well as Mother Talzin (she has traded blows with Windu and is just below Sidious in power). But then I remembered that Dooku faced off against Yoda and Maul briefly faced off against Windu and Palpatine by himself (though he obviously got the crap kicked out of him in the latter case).
So I guess it might be okay to scale Force Adepts at strong Jedi Master level and Jedi High Council member level to the MHS+ feat? This would scale to Grievous as well obviously since he can keep up with combatants of such level (such as Ventress, who is quite swift herself) and overpower the likes of Padawan Ahsoka (who can only put up a defensive effort against him).
Now the question is: How do we treat the Knight level and other characters lower on the power scale (such as Kanan and Padawan Ahsoka) as well as the IG-100 MagnaGuards? Do we also give them MHS+ combat speeds & reflexes or do we give them just MHS (scaling from the Mach 400 to 700 feat from the AOTC film) as a nice and safe low end estimate?
Summary of proposed revision:
Force Adepts on strong Jedi Master & High Council member level: Subsonic movement speed with MHS+ combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition. Grievous would also scale to this (minus the precognition thing of course).
Force Adepts on Kanan Jarrus level and below: Subsonic movement speed with MHS combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition.
(II) Star Wars "peak human and near-human" characters upgrade:
In case you people have missed it, Hera Syndulla is now 9-B for managing to twice contend with Rukh in hand to hand combat and somewhat hurt him. The guy was 100% fine after being hurled into a rock formation with enough force to put large cracks in it.
Then you have Kallus and Thrawn, both of whom scale from Zeb, who himself scales from adult male Trandoshans and Wookiees. By the way, if you're wondering how far into 9-B Kallus, Thrawn, Zeb, and adult male Trandoshans are, they scale from a 6.7 Megajoule feat which was performed by Chewbacca (when he was poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness). So that's pretty far into 9-B.
What's that? How does Zeb scale from Wookies?
In Star Wars Rebels Season 4, it's been made clear that Zeb can fight evenly against a large adult male Trandoshan. And large adult male Trandoshans (not the smaller ones) can contend with healthy adult male Wookies in hand to hand combat. And that 6.7 Megajoule striking strength feat was performed by Chewbacca, who is noted to be of average to below average size among adult male Wookies in the canon Smuggler's Run novel, while he was poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness.
Moving on…
So that's already a fairly decent collection of "peak human and near-human" characters being 9-B.
Now a lot of people would scale from Hera being 9-B. It obviously scales to Sabine, who should not be weaker than Hera. It would also scale to pretty much every Mandalorian warrior. Now Mandalorian armour is bloody tough. It's tough enough to allow them to withstand being blasted into a wall with enough force to put a large crack in said wall (as we saw in one episode of The Clone Wars). Then you have Boba Fett's helmet being only dented by a glancing shot from one of Cad Bane's LL-30 blaster pistols (which have a 9-A feat of their own). And Fenn Rau once knocked out a Mandalorian from clan Wren (in full armour) with a punch to the face (well his helmet covered face). So that's some consistency at least for 9-B or higher Mandalorians.
Now here's my question: Do we consider Hera's 9-B thing legit and scale a shit tonne of characters in this verse to 9-B? Or do we consider it plot induced stupidity or outlier? Well you see, there be more 9-B "peak human and near-human" characters.
So who else scales to 9-B then?
The Imperial Army has a Stormtrooper division known as SCAR Troopers (Special Commando Advanced Recon). There is one SCAR task force under the 501st Legion (Vader's Fist) called Task Force 99 and two of their members stand out. Zuke (species still unknown but near-human) has fought evenly against Chewbacca. And Kreel (unidentified near-human alien species) should be at least comparable to Zuke. Kreel has actually been trained in lightsaber combat by Vader himself, can deflect blaster bolts, and has gone up against Luke in lightsaber combat. And he's not even Force sensitive!
The bounty hunter Dengar. He has taken a blow from a very angry healthy Chewbacca (who, just to remind you again, has a 6.7 Megajoule striking strength feat when poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness). And he's also punched Chewie through a wall and taken another blow from him (albeit Chewie was drugged and injured). Dengar has also survived a grenade explosio. This was old Dengar mind you, not Clone Wars era Dengar (where he was in his physical prime). So he should be 9-B as well.
Mercurial Swift, another human bounty hunter, can contend with Dengar in hand to hand combat.
Jas Emari, a female Zabrak bounty hunter, also scales (she can hurt Mercurial Swift).
So that's more 9-B humans in Star Wars.
Does Boba Fett scale? I don't see why he shouldn't. Dengar has worked with Fett and the two are considered rivals. And Boba should absolutely not be weaker than Mercurial Swift and Jas Emari. Boba has also ripped off the arm of some large six-armed alien humanoid in a canon comic (which I think is 9-B). This of course means that Jango and all the clones of the Grand Army of the Republic scale. Even if they don't (using the argument that Boba is presented as far superior to the other clones in The Clone Wars animated series), Clone Commandos at least should scale as they are significantly tougher than the other clones (even the ARC troopers).
And now we get to:
Spoiler Zone Right Here. You have been warned.
In the novelization for The Force Awakens, Phasma says even a Wookie can't crush First Order Stormtrooper armour. Now this is proven to be not 100% true just a moment later when Chewbacca knocks out a Stormtrooper with a single powerful slap. But… I do believe there is some truth to this as First Order Stormtrooper armour is pretty high in quality and not too far off from that of the ARC Troopers. Then there is the matter of Phasma's own custom armour. It's made from the metal armour plating of the Imperialis, a space yacht which once belonged to Palpatine. That stuff is though. A shot from an SE-44C blaster pistol (which is a powerful heavy blaster pistol and is thus 9-A) just bounced off her chest plate. This couldn't have been a function of normal plastoid composite as they are designed to absorb the energy of blaster bolts. No, the shot just bounced off Phasma's metal chest plate. This puts Phasma's armour in the same league of durability as the Mandalorian Gar Saxon's gauntlets, which were able to take a shot from a DL-44 heavy blaster pistol.
Towards the end of their duel in one of the hangars of the Supremacy, Finn manages to shatter a portion of Phasma's helmet with a single blow from a Z6 riot control baton, the same one which FN-2199 beat the crap out of Finn with on Takodana. Now FN-2199 was bloodlusted and First Order Stormtroopers are trained to not hold back (they're even noted to be a little too enthusiastic about killing in the canon Poe Dameron comics). So I think we can all agree that it was an all out blow. The fact that Finn's rib cage wasn't bloody crushed by that is impressive.
What's that? I should get to the bloody point already?
Okay then…
What I'm porposing is 9-B to 9-A durability for Finn. He took a blow from a Z6 riot control baton to the chest from someone with physical prowess comparable to his own. Now he himself shattered Phasma's impressively tough armour with a blow from the exact same model of weapon. So we know that blow from FN-2199 must have been in the ballpark of 9-B to 9-A. First Order Stormtroopers are regularly made to spar with each other. FN-2199 and FN-2187 (Finn) were rivals. So 9-B to 9-A AP and durability for Finn, FN-2199, Phasma, and Cardinal (he is comparable to Phasma).
So… Is that consistent enough 9-B or higher "peak human and near-human" characters in Star Wars (Disney Canon)?
Summary of who would scale to 9-B or higher if accepted:
Sabine Wren
Mandalorian Journeyman Protectors (such as Fenn Rau) and Death Watch members
Dengar
Mercurial Swift (can contend with Dengar)
Jas Emari (can hurt Mercurial Swift)
Jango and Boba Fett (should not be weaker than Dengar, Mercurial Swift, Jas Emari)
The Fett Clones of the Grand Army of the Republic (scaling from their daddy and their brother who ages normally) and if not all of them, at least the Clone Commandos.
Finn, FN-2199, Rey in Force Awakens before her latent powers awakened, Phasma, Cardinal.
Other implications: Could possibly scale to all Jedi/Sith without Force augmentation/amplification. We already have a Force adept with a 9-A durability feat so...
- Spoiler Warning for The Last Jedi film.
- I'm highlighting this since it's a major revision.
- I would like to point out that I typed up all this shit while half asleep and with a cold plus raging headache. So forgive me for any mistakes and if the matter below looks like a bloody mess.
- You'll see the term "near-human" being used a few times below. This is an in-universe term that refers to non-human alien species whose biology and physical prowess in general are nearly identical to that of humans (with a few differences). Examples of near-human alien species: Dathomirian Zabrak, Iridonian Zabrak, Twi'lek, Togruta, Mirialan, Umbaran, Pantoran, Chiss, Kiffar.
This revision is divided into two parts. I've put it in collapsed text below.
(I) Jedi/Sith combat speeds & reflexes are literally lightning quick:
Per a couple of calc done by Kepekley23, we've seen Mach 400 to 700 feats from the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Count Dooku as well as a Mach 2,400 feat from Mace Windu.
Here be the calcs:
The Mach 400 to 700 feats.
The Mach 2,400 feat.
Thread where Force Lightning being as fast as natural lightning was discussed.
Basically, the Disney Canon Jedi & Sith and other strong Force Adepts will get [Subsonic movement speeds and MHS to MHS+ combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition] in place of what we have at present.
Now on one of Kepekley's blogs, I mentioned that Windu's feat would not scale to everyone. Now I said that because I was then of the opinion that we should scale Windu's MHS+ feat only to Yoda and Palpatine (no explanation needed) as well as Mother Talzin (she has traded blows with Windu and is just below Sidious in power). But then I remembered that Dooku faced off against Yoda and Maul briefly faced off against Windu and Palpatine by himself (though he obviously got the crap kicked out of him in the latter case).
So I guess it might be okay to scale Force Adepts at strong Jedi Master level and Jedi High Council member level to the MHS+ feat? This would scale to Grievous as well obviously since he can keep up with combatants of such level (such as Ventress, who is quite swift herself) and overpower the likes of Padawan Ahsoka (who can only put up a defensive effort against him).
Now the question is: How do we treat the Knight level and other characters lower on the power scale (such as Kanan and Padawan Ahsoka) as well as the IG-100 MagnaGuards? Do we also give them MHS+ combat speeds & reflexes or do we give them just MHS (scaling from the Mach 400 to 700 feat from the AOTC film) as a nice and safe low end estimate?
Summary of proposed revision:
Force Adepts on strong Jedi Master & High Council member level: Subsonic movement speed with MHS+ combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition. Grievous would also scale to this (minus the precognition thing of course).
Force Adepts on Kanan Jarrus level and below: Subsonic movement speed with MHS combat speeds & reactions augmented by precognition.
(II) Star Wars "peak human and near-human" characters upgrade:
In case you people have missed it, Hera Syndulla is now 9-B for managing to twice contend with Rukh in hand to hand combat and somewhat hurt him. The guy was 100% fine after being hurled into a rock formation with enough force to put large cracks in it.
Then you have Kallus and Thrawn, both of whom scale from Zeb, who himself scales from adult male Trandoshans and Wookiees. By the way, if you're wondering how far into 9-B Kallus, Thrawn, Zeb, and adult male Trandoshans are, they scale from a 6.7 Megajoule feat which was performed by Chewbacca (when he was poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness). So that's pretty far into 9-B.
What's that? How does Zeb scale from Wookies?
In Star Wars Rebels Season 4, it's been made clear that Zeb can fight evenly against a large adult male Trandoshan. And large adult male Trandoshans (not the smaller ones) can contend with healthy adult male Wookies in hand to hand combat. And that 6.7 Megajoule striking strength feat was performed by Chewbacca, who is noted to be of average to below average size among adult male Wookies in the canon Smuggler's Run novel, while he was poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness.
Moving on…
So that's already a fairly decent collection of "peak human and near-human" characters being 9-B.
Now a lot of people would scale from Hera being 9-B. It obviously scales to Sabine, who should not be weaker than Hera. It would also scale to pretty much every Mandalorian warrior. Now Mandalorian armour is bloody tough. It's tough enough to allow them to withstand being blasted into a wall with enough force to put a large crack in said wall (as we saw in one episode of The Clone Wars). Then you have Boba Fett's helmet being only dented by a glancing shot from one of Cad Bane's LL-30 blaster pistols (which have a 9-A feat of their own). And Fenn Rau once knocked out a Mandalorian from clan Wren (in full armour) with a punch to the face (well his helmet covered face). So that's some consistency at least for 9-B or higher Mandalorians.
Now here's my question: Do we consider Hera's 9-B thing legit and scale a shit tonne of characters in this verse to 9-B? Or do we consider it plot induced stupidity or outlier? Well you see, there be more 9-B "peak human and near-human" characters.
So who else scales to 9-B then?
The Imperial Army has a Stormtrooper division known as SCAR Troopers (Special Commando Advanced Recon). There is one SCAR task force under the 501st Legion (Vader's Fist) called Task Force 99 and two of their members stand out. Zuke (species still unknown but near-human) has fought evenly against Chewbacca. And Kreel (unidentified near-human alien species) should be at least comparable to Zuke. Kreel has actually been trained in lightsaber combat by Vader himself, can deflect blaster bolts, and has gone up against Luke in lightsaber combat. And he's not even Force sensitive!
The bounty hunter Dengar. He has taken a blow from a very angry healthy Chewbacca (who, just to remind you again, has a 6.7 Megajoule striking strength feat when poisoned and on the brink of losing consciousness). And he's also punched Chewie through a wall and taken another blow from him (albeit Chewie was drugged and injured). Dengar has also survived a grenade explosio. This was old Dengar mind you, not Clone Wars era Dengar (where he was in his physical prime). So he should be 9-B as well.
Mercurial Swift, another human bounty hunter, can contend with Dengar in hand to hand combat.
Jas Emari, a female Zabrak bounty hunter, also scales (she can hurt Mercurial Swift).
So that's more 9-B humans in Star Wars.
Does Boba Fett scale? I don't see why he shouldn't. Dengar has worked with Fett and the two are considered rivals. And Boba should absolutely not be weaker than Mercurial Swift and Jas Emari. Boba has also ripped off the arm of some large six-armed alien humanoid in a canon comic (which I think is 9-B). This of course means that Jango and all the clones of the Grand Army of the Republic scale. Even if they don't (using the argument that Boba is presented as far superior to the other clones in The Clone Wars animated series), Clone Commandos at least should scale as they are significantly tougher than the other clones (even the ARC troopers).
And now we get to:
Spoiler Zone Right Here. You have been warned.
In the novelization for The Force Awakens, Phasma says even a Wookie can't crush First Order Stormtrooper armour. Now this is proven to be not 100% true just a moment later when Chewbacca knocks out a Stormtrooper with a single powerful slap. But… I do believe there is some truth to this as First Order Stormtrooper armour is pretty high in quality and not too far off from that of the ARC Troopers. Then there is the matter of Phasma's own custom armour. It's made from the metal armour plating of the Imperialis, a space yacht which once belonged to Palpatine. That stuff is though. A shot from an SE-44C blaster pistol (which is a powerful heavy blaster pistol and is thus 9-A) just bounced off her chest plate. This couldn't have been a function of normal plastoid composite as they are designed to absorb the energy of blaster bolts. No, the shot just bounced off Phasma's metal chest plate. This puts Phasma's armour in the same league of durability as the Mandalorian Gar Saxon's gauntlets, which were able to take a shot from a DL-44 heavy blaster pistol.
Towards the end of their duel in one of the hangars of the Supremacy, Finn manages to shatter a portion of Phasma's helmet with a single blow from a Z6 riot control baton, the same one which FN-2199 beat the crap out of Finn with on Takodana. Now FN-2199 was bloodlusted and First Order Stormtroopers are trained to not hold back (they're even noted to be a little too enthusiastic about killing in the canon Poe Dameron comics). So I think we can all agree that it was an all out blow. The fact that Finn's rib cage wasn't bloody crushed by that is impressive.
What's that? I should get to the bloody point already?
Okay then…
What I'm porposing is 9-B to 9-A durability for Finn. He took a blow from a Z6 riot control baton to the chest from someone with physical prowess comparable to his own. Now he himself shattered Phasma's impressively tough armour with a blow from the exact same model of weapon. So we know that blow from FN-2199 must have been in the ballpark of 9-B to 9-A. First Order Stormtroopers are regularly made to spar with each other. FN-2199 and FN-2187 (Finn) were rivals. So 9-B to 9-A AP and durability for Finn, FN-2199, Phasma, and Cardinal (he is comparable to Phasma).
So… Is that consistent enough 9-B or higher "peak human and near-human" characters in Star Wars (Disney Canon)?
Summary of who would scale to 9-B or higher if accepted:
Sabine Wren
Mandalorian Journeyman Protectors (such as Fenn Rau) and Death Watch members
Dengar
Mercurial Swift (can contend with Dengar)
Jas Emari (can hurt Mercurial Swift)
Jango and Boba Fett (should not be weaker than Dengar, Mercurial Swift, Jas Emari)
The Fett Clones of the Grand Army of the Republic (scaling from their daddy and their brother who ages normally) and if not all of them, at least the Clone Commandos.
Finn, FN-2199, Rey in Force Awakens before her latent powers awakened, Phasma, Cardinal.
Other implications: Could possibly scale to all Jedi/Sith without Force augmentation/amplification. We already have a Force adept with a 9-A durability feat so...
