Zeno vs Gold Experience Requiem 🔥

[Keeweed]

I know the guidebooks say he set Diavolo’s will to zero, but before the death loop he was still perfectly fine trying to attack GER and only after the death loop did we see him break down. Though maybe that could just be just a good will feat for Diavolo. However, it could also be a part of the full auto loop, and that requires Giorno to kill the target.

 

[Robo432343]

Isn't Giorno setting Zeno's will to 0 an incap and GG?

ye

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I know the guidebooks say he set Diavolo’s will to zero, but before the death loop he was still perfectly fine trying to attack GER and only after the death loop did we see him break down. Though maybe that could just be just a good will feat for Diavolo. However, it could also be a part of the full auto loop, and that requires Giorno to kill the target.

Killing Zen'ō would be impossible for Giorno, due to his low 1-C durability.

 

[StrymULTRA]

To be honest, the "will set to 0" is very damn vague and we don't know how it actually works.

The entire point and problem for Zeno is that the attack truly doesn’t matter. He matters, and if he gets reset, he never gets to attack to begin with. Even thought based abilities require an action and time if the character lacks infinite speed, and even then you could argue since the speed is tied GER could still win that since it’s automatic infinite.

It definitely depends on what the character does. If the character has something like "I think and you die", and Giorno insta-dies, GER can't do anything as the attack already did reach Giorno without traveling. GER indeed did null the time erasure, but that happened after it already was in effect.

Plus my problem lays on this: If X character has a 2-C attack which instantly destroys 3 universes when used, can GER null it? Because if those 3 universes are instantly destroyed after that the attack in question was used, GER can't much either as the universes are destroyed as soon as the attack was used.

 

[Keeweed]

I know, that was my point with saying he would be required to do so, it was to point out that he can’t (responding to the durability issue comment).

 

[Keeweed]

But the GER defense is infinite, it not needing to travel means both the defense and attack would be moving the same speed unless it’s against someone that upscales from infinity or is immeasurable. It definitely could be argued to block it, especially since one would need a thought while the other one is automatically happening.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Just one question, can Giorno feel emotion from Low-Multiversal ranged characters or something?

 

[Keeweed]

“ Plus my problem lays on this: If X character has a 2-C attack which instantly destroys 3 universes when used, can GER null it? ”

If the character isn’t infinite speed and lacks acausality type 4 or 5, yeah. The character needs to preform the attack, they don’t get to do so. A thought is still an action, an action that can be reversed, and if it’s infinite (infinite speed character thinking I meant) it’s a automatic infinite versus a thought based one, an arguement can be made there. But Zeno isn’t infinite.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But the GER defense is infinite, it not needing to travel means both the defense and attack would be moving the same speed unless it’s against someone that upscales from infinity or is immeasurable. It definitely could be argued to block it, especially since one would need a thought while the other one is automatically happening.

That's my problem about this yeah. If the attack needs immeasurable speed to work, then GER can't much against it.

If the character isn’t infinite speed and lacks acausality type 4 or 5, yeah. The character needs to preform the attack, they don’t get to do so.

Tier 2 or above attacks that destroy space-time are assumed to have immeasurable speed by default, and characters do not scale to these attacks unless they have a reason to. It's why Frisk from Undertale is Immeasurable, as they actually did react and dodge a timeline erasure.

 

[Keeweed]

Okay, cool, but you keep missing the obvious problem, Zeno can’t think or move at infinite or Immeasurable speeds so the attack speed is meaningless. His hand or thought gets reset literally the instant it starts.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's the part that can be argued, yes. What I meant is to clear the misconception that GER can null a 2-C or above attack that's instantaneous/already being used.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, I guess it depends on if that low 2-C attack actually has immeasurable destruction or not, there are plenty of ways to have that ap, with the feat, and have the attack’s effects not be immeasurable. Though in Zeno’s case I’m not sure what it would count as.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

From what I could understand, Ger is only activated if a character tries to think of something bad for Giorno, but what if that character was 12 Universes away?

Zen'ō could try to erase the entire timeline together with Giorno and Ger would not be able to feel Zen'ō's emotions, because he is not close enough, which would end in Zen'ō's victory.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's my problem about this yeah. If the attack needs immeasurable speed to work, then GER can't much against it.

Tier 2 or above attacks that destroy space-time are assumed to have immeasurable speed by default, and characters do not scale to these attacks unless they have a reason to. It's why Frisk from Undertale is Immeasurable, as they actually did react and dodge a timeline erasure.

I didn't know about this thing

 

[Keeweed]

Zeno isn’t 12 universes away. SBA have the opponents in the same universe, for super obvious reasons. Zeno wouldn’t have a reason to try and out range even if he was super smart (because he has no way to figure out how GER works), but he isn’t, he’s already quite dumb.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, I guess it depends on if that low 2-C attack actually has immeasurable destruction or not, there are plenty of ways to have that ap, with the feat, and have the attack part of the attack not be immeasurable. Though in Zeno’s case I’m not sure what it would count as.

Zeno I have not much idea, because it's displayed as either an instant destruction or an expanding light that erases anything it touches.

And it's absolutely Immeasurable here, it destroyed the whole timeline as even accepted in the blog.

Plus is another reason why it did not instantly null Diavolo's time erasure ngl.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Oh wait, the Zamasu thing wasn't this "ever exanding light", it too instantly destroyed the timeline.

My bad.

 

[Keeweed]

I guess for now it is, but the blog has like 3 staff members extra annoyed at it, and pretty much every staff member I’ve seen comment on the attack destruction has said it isn’t even infinite. So while I do personally think it should be infinite destruction at least, that doesn’t seem to be accepted for matches.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I myself think Tier 1 for Dragon Ball is dumb, but the Immeasurable thing is 100% legit, given other verses uses it. Not just Undertale, but also stuff like Sonic or DMC.

 

[Robo432343]

I myself think Tier 1 for Dragon Ball is dumb,

downgrade thread when

 

[Keeweed]

I mean, I can see it, but honestly so much stuff on this site flip flops from staff member to staff member. I honestly would never know what counts as what anymore since I’ve seen like 20 versus all contradict each other in a row and whenever you bring up a contradiction on this site its usually extremely quickly dismissed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, I can see it, but honestly so much stuff on this site flip flops from staff member to staff member. I honestly would never know what counts as what anymore since I’ve seen like 20 versus all contradict each other in a row and whenever you bring up a contradiction on this site its usually extremely quickly dismissed.

What staff members say in vs matches is kinda pointless if later on they agree with this stuff being Immeasurable on profiles lol.

You got verses who have speed ratings based on this concept kek. I am not in the mood of making any downgrade though, I think those speed ratings are fine.

 

[Vietthai96]

Zeno EE the entire timeline which is history EE, which mean he EE Giorno across all point in time, instantly, GER can't counter thing like that unless it have Immeasurable speed

 

[Robo432343]

Zeno EE the entire timeline which is history EE, which mean he EE Giorno across all point in time, instantly, GER can't counter thing like that unless it have Immeasurable speed

bro its not instant
it takes time for him to activate the ki blast

 

[Vietthai96]

bro its not instant
it takes time for him to activate the ki blast

Ki blast isn't EE, EE isn't ki blast, this isn't Hakai, choose one

Also it still EE Giorno across all point in time, GER need Immeasurable speed to counter

 

[Keeweed]

That’s not how it even works for the individual characters anyways, Zamasu didn’t never exist, the Goku black arc would have retroactively never happened if that was the case. Plus Hakai requires an action still.

 

[Chariot190]

Giorno needs to kill him to fully auto loop someone. Without he’s just resetting them once.

There is no magic difference between the Death Loop and other actions, it's the same ability. All the Deah Loop is, is Diavolo's Death was set to 0, and bro kept it that way.
The Death Loop isn't even treated as a special function in things like guides, it is unironically just us, the western fanbase, that makes the distinction between it and RTZ as a whole, all it is is the act of dying being made so it can't happen, it isn't like he can only do that against dying specifically, and we know damn well it isn't exclusive to that.
And hell, ignoring the anime, we're flatout told King Crimson was negged too, like, as a whole. Ever wonder why Diavolo doesn't summon him again? Bro can't.

Diavolo showed that the you can acknowledge the reset and be confused by it.

Yes, and only Diavolo, nobody else.
Mista and Trish were both RTZ'd too, and lacked any knowledge of it, with Mista even saying he has no idea what GER did to win.
This is important as Mista took several actions, long before time skip was used (as in "mista doesn't remember because that happened in time skip", isn't actually the case, he did everything beforehand), and yet he wasn't aware he already loaded up his gun, aimed, and fired them already. If what you say is true, Mista would know, he'd remember, and he'd be like wtf i just did that why am I back here, but he doesn't because only Diavolo remembers, not even Giorno knows about RTZ (as said in GoGo), but he would if he suddenly relived the past minute again. Nobody but Diavolo and GER is aware RTZ ever happened.

Why though? GER wanted Diavolo to recognize his **** up, that's the whole point and premise of Part 5. If Diavolo was like everyone else and didn't remember his deaths, him getting shit talked about fate, the results, and more, what would even be the point? What I'm getting at is, yeah Diavolo remembers, and he's the clear exception, and he's the exception because plot.
In the case with Zeno, GER has zero reason to do so here, RTZ just kicks in, and then Zeno can't take that action.

not actually being hard prevented from doing an attack. It’s kinda like how Dio continuously moved polnareff down a set of stairs. He gets to do stuff afterwards and try again, it just isn’t really resulting in any meaningful results.

If a specific action is taken, that action then becomes unable to happen. Even if said action is fated to occur such as the visions, something the guides tell us will never happen now.
False equivalence, Dio physically moving a dude is not the same as if Polnareff tried walking up the stairs. In fact, that might be a good example, but not in the way intended. If RTZ made it so the act of Polnareff reaching DIO atop the stairs was 0, yeah Pol could try, but he'd never reach actually get to Dio, and would be set back each time he was about to.

If RTZ stops Zeno from using EE, he will never be able to reach the conclusion of that action (that being using the EE, unless for some reason they just let him?), the same way Diavolo can never die, never use time skip, or even summon his Stand ever again. All 3 different things that he simply can not do, only one of which is the "death loop".

When it comes to Giorno using a different animal, he’s never come close to trying even when it would be extremely convenient.

Yes he has? He's shown multiple times to whip out animals best suited for the job when faced with an unprecedented situation.
Whether it be using a specific type of plant because nothing else can grow due to the cold or a snake to extract an antidote from using its white blood cells by creating a creature born from a toxic environment, Gio is no stranger to adapting and using the right type of animal, and he's done so in far more exotic situations than "snake bite cant puncture, so use a animal that doesnt bite". And hell, we know he is willing to use poison to kill, he sent a whole ass snake like dozens of km just to bite a dude, killing him.
You say convient but like, when really was it needed, or he had a chance?
Bruno. I mean yeah he could've but that'd be dumb and it was like his first fight.
Polpo. Poison would make it obvious he was killed, not suicide.
Mario. Gio didn't even know where he was and was taken out.
Illuso. Impossible, on all fronts.
Ghiacchio. Bro's wearing a suit of armor, and it was so cold he couldn't even make animals.
Baby Face. Uh, idk maybe? Like it'd have worked, but Gio spent most of that fight being cut up into cubes and then ass pulled a whole new way to use his ability to heal himself. he then sent a snake to poison the main body tho.
BIG? Stand that's already dead, would eat any animal he made.
Ciocollata? Never really got a chance, bro was almost never in range to use any animal, he had to like ricochet a bullet into him from behind, and at that point, he won.
Diavolo? Bro would never touch it, Gio couldn't even touch him with one even if he wanted to.
Stands. Those things don't give a damn about organic poison, just see Whitesnake smashing poison dart frogs and not giving a ****, while any human who touched them was effected nigh instantly.

You say he's never come close, but he has, he's like literally one step off from having done exactly that, bro just needs to make a poison dart frog or something.

but I’m pretty sure if a character just never comes anywhere close to doing something we have to assume they won’t even if it would make sense to other people to do so.

Depends on the character, context, and past precedence. Gio is a genius who is shown to be highly adaptive, using his ability in all sorts of ways, including straight up poisoning dudes, and even making up whole new ways to use it like healing. He's shown a wealth of knowledge over animals as well. It isn't a NLF to say "hey, he'll probably make a plant or animal that can poison without needing to break skin".

I’ll lean to a mismatch then. I don’t think Zeno is really counted as incapacitated, so it just comes down to how much characters are allowed to stretch out from what they have shown (and I’ve been told repeatedly that they really can’t in versus threads)

This isn't exactly the same as saying Gio will make a bunch of damage-reflecting T-Rexs and don an armor made of frogs, now THAT is some bullshit, like yeah he could, but he hasn't done shit close to that, that's what people mean when they say things like that.
I'm just saying he'd probably eventually just make something like a poison dart frog, and we know he's willing to poison, and we know he can make poisonous animals, because he has.
This is more like saying someone like Batman would use the tools he has, in a way he's willing to, in a way he can, if his usual methods don't work, and he's smart, adaptive, and knowledgable enough to do so in the presented way.

Zeno EE the entire timeline which is history EE, which mean he EE Giorno across all point in time, instantly, GER can't counter thing like that unless it have Immeasurable speed

Bruh, that isn't even how it works in DBZ, by that logic the ToP would have never happened because the worlds were gone before the arc even started, or all of DB as a whole because Trunks timeline was deleted, so the past should've been gone, meaning he'd never have went back to the past.

He has to actually USE the EE first my dude.

 

[Robo432343]

Ki blast isn't EE, EE isn't ki blast, this isn't Hakai, choose one

Also it still EE Giorno across all point in time, GER need Immeasurable speed to counter

tf
future zeno erased everything within a single ki blast

 

[Keeweed]

Ah, that would explain the Diavolo part which goes into everything else. Then yeah Zeno just gets straight stomped.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bruh, that isn't even how it works in DBZ, by that logic the ToP wuld have never happened because the worlds were gone before the arc even started, or all of DB as a whole because Trunks timeline was deleted, so the past should've been gone, meaning he'd never have went back to the past.

This is as bad as saying that Giygas is not Tier 2 because time travel was an option against him, or also saying that the events of PMMM never happened because Madoka indirectly nulled them after the major multiverse retcon happened at the end of the series.

It's stated multiple times in the series that Zeno destroyed the whole of the timeline, end of the story. If you wanna argue against it make a CRT, as the blog is accepted in the profile, you keeping to repeat "but it's not because I don't want to" does not work.

 

[Killerdrone123]

tf
future zeno erased everything within a single ki blast

No zeno's ee is not ki blast it is more so delete

 

[StrymULTRA]

Zeno does not even use a ki explosion, he uses his ki to insta-delete the thing.

 

[Robo432343]

what would happen if this was zeno vs love train

 

[StrymULTRA]

Valentine gets stomped lmfao.

 

[Vietthai96]

tf
future zeno erased everything within a single ki blast

This is derailing but when did the verse stated he use a ki blast???, or it is people who see his hand glowing then assume it is ki blast??

Bruh, that isn't even how it works in DBZ, by that logic the ToP would have never happened because the worlds were gone before the arc even started, or all of DB as a whole because Trunks timeline was deleted, so the past should've been gone, meaning he'd never have went back to the past.

He has to actually USE the EE first my dude.

1. Literally DB have multiple timelines, and each timeline follow their own cause and effect, you argue that Zeno EE Trunks timeline must affect present Goku timeline to cause the ToP to never exist which is nonsensical, their causality is separated

2. Eh i argue the EE, but that is his always first move

 

[Killerdrone123]

There is no magic difference between the Death Loop and other actions, it's the same ability. All the Deah Loop is, is Diavolo's Death was set to 0, and bro kept it that way.
The Death Loop isn't even treated as a special function in things like guides, it is unironically just us, the western fanbase, that makes the distinction between it and RTZ as a whole, all it is is the act of dying being made so it can't happen, it isn't like he can only do that against dying specifically, and we know damn well it isn't exclusive to that.
And hell, ignoring the anime, we're flatout told King Crimson was negged too, like, as a whole. Ever wonder why Diavolo doesn't summon him again? Bro can't.

Yes, and only Diavolo, nobody else.
Mista and Trish were both RTZ'd too, and lacked any knowledge of it, with Mista even saying he has no idea what GER did to win.
This is important as Mista took several actions, long before time skip was used (as in "mista doesn't remember because that happened in time skip", isn't actually the case, he did everything beforehand), and yet he wasn't aware he already loaded up his gun, aimed, and fired them already. If what you say is true, Mista would know, he'd remember, and he'd be like wtf i just did that why am I back here, but he doesn't because only Diavolo remembers, not even Giorno knows about RTZ (as said in GoGo), but he would if he suddenly relived the past minute again. Nobody but Diavolo and GER is aware RTZ ever happened.

Why though? GER wanted Diavolo to recognize his **** up, that's the whole point and premise of Part 5. If Diavolo was like everyone else and didn't remember his deaths, him getting shit talked about fate, the results, and more, what would even be the point? What I'm getting at is, yeah Diavolo remembers, and he's the clear exception, and he's the exception because plot.
In the case with Zeno, GER has zero reason to do so here, RTZ just kicks in, and then Zeno can't take that action.

If a specific action is taken, that action then becomes unable to happen. Even if said action is fated to occur such as the visions, something the guides tell us will never happen now.
False equivalence, Dio physically moving a dude is not the same as if Polnareff tried walking up the stairs. In fact, that might be a good example, but not in the way intended. If RTZ made it so the act of Polnareff reaching DIO atop the stairs was 0, yeah Pol could try, but he'd never reach actually get to Dio, and would be set back each time he was about to.

If RTZ stops Zeno from using EE, he will never be able to reach the conclusion of that action (that being using the EE, unless for some reason they just let him?), the same way Diavolo can never die, never use time skip, or even summon his Stand ever again. All 3 different things that he simply can not do, only one of which is the "death loop".

Yes he has? He's shown multiple times to whip out animals best suited for the job when faced with an unprecedented situation.
Whether it be using a specific type of plant because nothing else can grow due to the cold or a snake to extract an antidote from using its white blood cells by creating a creature born from a toxic environment, Gio is no stranger to adapting and using the right type of animal, and he's done so in far more exotic situations than "snake bite cant puncture, so use a animal that doesnt bite". And hell, we know he is willing to use poison to kill, he sent a whole ass snake like dozens of km just to bite a dude, killing him.
You say convient but like, when really was it needed, or he had a chance?
Bruno. I mean yeah he could've but that'd be dumb and it was like his first fight.
Polpo. Poison would make it obvious he was killed, not suicide.
Mario. Gio didn't even know where he was and was taken out.
Illuso. Impossible, on all fronts.
Ghiacchio. Bro's wearing a suit of armor, and it was so cold he couldn't even make animals.
Baby Face. Uh, idk maybe? Like it'd have worked, but Gio spent most of that fight being cut up into cubes and then ass pulled a whole new way to use his ability to heal himself. he then sent a snake to poison the main body tho.
BIG? Stand that's already dead, would eat any animal he made.
Ciocollata? Never really got a chance, bro was almost never in range to use any animal, he had to like ricochet a bullet into him from behind, and at that point, he won.
Diavolo? Bro would never touch it, Gio couldn't even touch him with one even if he wanted to.
Stands. Those things don't give a damn about organic poison, just see Whitesnake smashing poison dart frogs and not giving a ****, while any human who touched them was effected nigh instantly.

You say he's never come close, but he has, he's like literally one step off from having done exactly that, bro just needs to make a poison dart frog or something.

Depends on the character, context, and past precedence. Gio is a genius who is shown to be highly adaptive, using his ability in all sorts of ways, including straight up poisoning dudes, and even making up whole new ways to use it like healing. He's shown a wealth of knowledge over animals as well. It isn't a NLF to say "hey, he'll probably make a plant or animal that can poison without needing to break skin".

This isn't exactly the same as saying Gio will make a bunch of damage-reflecting T-Rexs and don an armor made of frogs, now THAT is some bullshit, like yeah he could, but he hasn't done shit close to that, that's what people mean when they say things like that.
I'm just saying he'd probably eventually just make something like a poison dart frog, and we know he's willing to poison, and we know he can make poisonous animals, because he has.
This is more like saying someone like Batman would use the tools he has, in a way he's willing to, in a way he can, if his usual methods don't work, and he's smart, adaptive, and knowledgable enough to do so in the presented way.

Bruh, that isn't even how it works in DBZ, by that logic the ToP would have never happened because the worlds were gone before the arc even started, or all of DB as a whole because Trunks timeline was deleted, so the past should've been gone, meaning he'd never have went back to the past.

He has to actually USE the EE first my dude.

Universes in db are mini timelines themselves having there own time dimension and past,present and future the hypertimeline contains all of this and each hypertimeline is independent of each other causality

 

[Chariot190]

This is as bad as saying that Giygas is not Tier 2 because time travel was an option against him, or also saying that the events of PMMM never happened because Madoka indirectly nulled them after the major multiverse retcon happened at the end of the series.

It's stated multiple times in the series that Zeno destroyed the whole of the timeline, end of the story. If you wanna argue against it make a CRT, as the blog is accepted in the profile, you keeping to repeat "but it's not because I don't want to" does not work.

Or maybe that isn't how it's actually portrayed in the what, 17 times it's happened? You're extrapolating the hell out of something, to give it a behavior it simply does not have nor ever did.

Zeno must use the attack. If he cannot use the attack, he can not win. The attack having Imm speed (except not really because the attack that he's even rated for was shown expanding normally), does not matter if he can't use it, and it isn't in anyway way treated, shown, or behaves like "oh well zeno in the future did this, so retroactively they never existed", as if isn't a blatant case of powerscaling brainrot and shoving shit where it doesn't belong. And finally, Zeno doesn't even have this listed on his profile, his EE and Ki isn't Imm, it's MFTL+, aka I don't need to make a CRT for something that isn't even there.

 

[Robo432343]

This is derailing

nah derailing is fine coz its a robo thread

but when did the verse stated he use a ki blast???, or it is people who see his hand glowing then assume it is ki blast??

it says on zeno's profile that he effortlessly erased everything with a single ki blast

Zen'ō

So, see I was thinking, see, maybe next time I'll try gathering fighters from all the universes, see...We'll do a tournament then, see. Sometime soon, see.Zen’ō to Goku after watching his fight with Hit Zen'ō (全ぜん王おう?, lit. "Omni-King") is the king of all of the twelve universes in the Dragon...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[StrymULTRA]

or behaves like "oh well zeno in the future did this, so retroactively they never existed", as if isn't a blatant case of powerscaling brainrot and shoving shit where it doesn't belong. And finally, Zeno doesn't even have this listed on his profile, his EE and Ki isn't Imm, it's MFTL+, aka I don't need to make a CRT for something that isn't even there.

I myself think that Zeno should be downgraded to 2-C, BUT:

1. Him erasing the timeline is undeniable.
2. Saying "but it does not work like that because stuff" in a vs thread is not a thing, especially when it has a blog explaining it in profile.

This entire post seems just stonewalling against a practice used in this wiki, unless you want to argue against Undertale and Sonic being Immeasurable too.

 

[Vietthai96]

The Ki (supposely) isn't Immeasurable, but the effect is Immeasurable, and GER need to counter the effect to save Giorno