Zelda tiering and scaling revisions

[Armorchompy]

I mean isn't that just what would happen if you had a mirror tied to your back I don't really see the speed, it's not like the light is curving behind him

 

[Chariot190]

We can visibly see the light reflect off the shield, as in, move in a straight line after bouncing off the shield and travel from Point A to Point B.
We can physically see the light move through the air.

 

[Armorchompy]

Can you link the video?

 

[Chariot190]

Here's two exceptionally bad potato quality gifs of it that I was doing before you even asked (I'd get the raw footage and make like og resolution clips but, not enough space on this storage atm).
Slowed down 10x.
Here.

As you can see, Link can move in conjunction with the light, you even got the frames of it frame by frame posted above.

 

[Armorchompy]

Fair enough, I think it's more than good enough, no need to do that.

Anyway first one just seems like a visual glitch, idk about the second one so I'll await opinions.

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Cyberblader90]

i think coming to a decision to dark world right now would be the best, it requires no calc

 

[Theglassman12]

As I’ve said before, some people argued it’s a range hax feat, not necessarily an AP feat, but I’ll let others decide before we jump into any conclusions.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't think we can decide. It's a vague feat, it could be either or. It's one of those feats that's open to interpretation and neither side is 100% right or wrong, which makes pegging it down difficult.

 

[TentTaku]

Been lurking on this thread for a while, hope it’s okay to throw in my own thoughts on the Dark World feat.

Assuming everyone is in agreement that the Triforce has universal range, capable of warping everything within, then would the Triforce’s Lorule restoration feat apply to that scale as well? Even if as said earlier Lorule’s degradation was gradual over an unspecified period of time, the Triforce’s act of of undoing all of that damage was immediate. And I’m assuming that counts as a creation feat since simply warping Lorule wouldn’t recreate the lost components that were destroyed in the first place. So could that be used as supporting evidence for the Dark World transformation counting towards AP?

If I’m wrong or out of line here then please let me know.

 

[Theglassman12]

The problem with the Lorule thing is it doesn’t exactly check off the Stabilization feats required for it to be a legit feat. Cause the dimension would have to be destroyed immediately the moment whatever is sustaining it is gone, not gradual. And I recall someone mentioning how the damage was still there despite Lorule’s triforce being recreated, though I could be wrong on the last part.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

 

[TentTaku]

My point was more on the immediate restoration of Lorule instead of the stabilization aspect of it. Logically if all of the damage is undone immediately, that should negate the need to rely on the rejected stabilization angle. Although whether or not the damage was still there as you mentioned is something I think I’ll look into. I’ll fire up my Link Between Worlds save in the morning when I’m free to see if I can verify that.

 

[Cyberblader90]

My point was more on the immediate restoration of Lorule instead of the stabilization aspect of it. Logically if all of the damage is undone immediately, that should negate the need to rely on the rejected stabilization angle. Although whether or not the damage was still there as you mentioned is something I think I’ll look into. I’ll fire up my Link Between Worlds save in the morning when I’m free to see if I can verify that.

Even at the end of the game when Lorule’s Triforce is restored, Lorule isn’t instantly warped back to normal and still has tons of fissures.

 

[TentTaku]

Even at the end of the game when Lorule’s Triforce is restored, Lorule isn’t instantly warped back to normal and still has tons of fissures.

Huh, I guess I must have misremembered that then.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So excuse me if this is a dumb question as I don't Zelda lol

So the Ocarina of Time can forcefully change night into day, which is a pretty neat feat if legitimate. Does anything scale to the Ocarina? I dunno, it just was something that popped into my head. Could be a totally useless feat for all I know.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Sun Song is just time manipulation; it's against the rules to assume earth flipping as the default for stuff like that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Ah, okay then. I knew there was something I was missing about how it works.

 

[Theglassman12]

So does anyone object to me moving the dark world feat into the “not usable” section of the feats?

 

[Cyberblader90]

ehhhhh wait on it. Ill make a case for it later today

 

[Cyberblader90]

The dark world feat was the wish from ganondorf turning the sacred realm into the dark world:

When the Sacred Realm is introduced in A Link to the Past, it’s explained that when Ganon seized the Triforce his wish turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. This makes sense in the context of that game given the manual states that the Moon Pearl protects the user from the magic of the Triforce. It's also stated that the people who enter take on the form of their inner thoughts due to the Triforce's power in the Dark World.

Ganon's Wish - Zelda Universe Forums

In the ALttP manual, it tells of a Seal War. In that story, it says that when Ganon entered the Sacred Realm and touched the Triforce, he had his wish granted. But no one knows what that wish was. […] Ganon made a wish on the Triforce, but it was…

zeldauniverse.net

“Wow! I haven't seen a normal person in a few hundred years! Let me talk to you for a while. Surprisingly, the Triforce created this world to fulfill Ganon's wish. What is Ganon's wish, you ask? It is to rule the entire cosmos! Don't you think it might be possible with the power of the Triforce behind you?”

It’s stated here Ganon’s wish is to rule the cosmos, which created the dark world via triforce

How large is the dark world

Here you can see that the Dark World is used as “world,” “realm,” and “dimension” all interchangeably, the dark world also has a visible sun.

The fsa manual calls it another world.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/zelda-tiering-and-scaling-revisions.119708/post-3940987

https://vsbattles.com/threads/zelda-tiering-and-scaling-revisions.119708/post-3941014

Manga may be usable if it doesnt contradict the source material. This is how the manga depicts the dark world:

Triforce, does it scale to ap?

The user can shape reality with the Triforce.

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/common/pdf/CLV-P-SAAEE.pdf

Links wish:

Continuity snarl
In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and it altered to become a Hell-like state because the realm changed due to Ganon’s heart. Then when he killed Link in the Downfall timeline, his wish on the Triforce changed the Sacred Realm fully into the Dark World. Instead of the Sacred Realm altering based on the hearts of those who entered it, it altered the people who entered based on their heart instead.

People entered the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP without having their forms changed (Link and Gandorf himself in ALTTP prologue manual). As well as the fact the triforce itself states what Ganon’s wish did in ALTTP and a lot of material directly references it’s power having influence over people. So when people say the Triforce altered the Sacred Realm they may be technically correct, even if a lot of the mechanics of the Sacred Realm are obtuse and indirect.

Link's wish however did undo the change, reverting the dark world back to the sacred realm, though as seen in the scan above, gradually.

 

[Cyberblader90]

so its blatant reality warping. That said, might scale to ap via empowerment:

There are consistent statements of them using the power of the Triforce or the Triforce amping them:

 

[Cyberblader90]

lastly, i would like to present the following:

All things in Zelda that are mystical are done via magic:


Users like Zant who are warping reality, are doing it via magic given to him by Ganondorf with the Triforce of Power:



There’s also direct statements of magic existing in characters like Ganon due to the power of the triforce:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...5562050740264/Screenshot_20210117-1931052.png


Everything done by Ganon is credited to magic:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...09542978306078/Screenshot_20210201-225328.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...09557855240212/Screenshot_20210201-225354.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...09575152680991/Screenshot_20210201-225343.png

magic might directly scale to AP as it’s stated people like Agahim, Ganon’s avatar, has his magic bolstered by the power of the triforce:

 

[Cyberblader90]

sorry for triple post

Given this:

Dark world could be anywhere from large star (sun and planet), multi solar from the manga, or potentially universe given cosmos definition

 

[TentTaku]

Honestly given all of the scans that you provided on the Dark World, I think it’s safe to assume that it is universe sized. There’s too many statements referring to it as a world, dimension, cosmos, and reflection of the light world for me to personally assume otherwise.

 

[Dust_Collector]

There’s also direct statements of magic existing in characters like Ganon due to the power of the triforce:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...5562050740264/Screenshot_20210117-1931052.png

That’s why the Reality Warping of Zant is countered by the Master Sword: it’s a sword that literally repels magic:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...08367965274172/Screenshot_20210201-224916.png

Eh, first statement doesn't make sense since Ganon was a magic user long before he got the Triforce of Power, and we don't count what Zant does as reality warping anymore, just dimensional travel to different locations in Hyrule. Not that it matters since there's plenty of evidence in verse that Magic scales to AP, that's even the default assumption we tend to use for any series where people use magic for attacks.

Dark world could be anywhere from large star (sun and planet), multi solar from the manga, or potentially universe given cosmos definition

I'm not entirely sure we can use the manga, but I do think the Dark World should be universal in size. The current logic we use for the Triforce being universal (Besides the now rejected Wind Fish scaling) is that the Dark World and the Light World are the same size, and since the Dark World has a sun we know the Light World isn't just the planet, and they certainly wouldn't use Light World to describe just the solar system, so that means that the Light World refers to the universe, making the Dark World also universal in size. The cosmos statement is a mistranslation, we had what the original text said translated a few years ago and it was just a statement about how people who end up in the Dark World tend to go insane, which is why Ganon currently has madness manipulation.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Thanks for the corrections

I'd go with either just flat 3A for the full triforce empowering, or 3-a via reality warping.

I don't necessarily see an issue with the first option though like I said in the first post You could argue the realm was somewhat already warped from Ganon entering it, though I might be mistaken on that part

 

[Armorchompy]

im not reading all of that so yeah looks good

 

[Theglassman12]

Btw, I wouldn’t use the “triforce magic being countered by the master sword” scan considering it’s shown to be a massive mistranslation and misunderstanding the entire point of the master sword.

 

[Cyberblader90]

I'll correct any mistakes in that post and write a summarized version that's much smaller after I get back home

 

[Cyberblader90]

Btw, I wouldn’t use the “triforce magic being countered by the master sword” scan considering it’s shown to be a massive mistranslation and misunderstanding the entire point of the master sword.

checks out. Ill remove it

Eh, first statement doesn't make sense since Ganon was a magic user long before he got the Triforce of Power, and we don't count what Zant does as reality warping anymore, just dimensional travel to different locations in Hyrule. Not that it matters since there's plenty of evidence in verse that Magic scales to AP, that's even the default assumption we tend to use for any series where people use magic for attacks.

your zant point checks out. Maybe the first statement meant stronger magic than what he had before?

The cosmos statement is a mistranslation, we had what the original text said translated a few years ago and it was just a statement about how people who end up in the Dark World tend to go insane, which is why Ganon currently has madness manipulation.

Exclusive Interview: Dan Owsen Talks Zelda Timeline – Zelda Dungeon

That dialogue may have been intended given this interview

 

[Theglassman12]

As for the feat, I can see a 3-A via reality warping for the Triforce, though the fact that HH says that the dark world gradually disappears, as opposed to it being instantaneous makes it a bit iffy to say It would scale to strength outright. I think scaling the reality warping to that level is fine by me.

 

[Chariot190]

I can get behind most of that. There's a few issues here and there but bar mistranslations, the rest is shit that I'm willing to handwave (But only because I'm busy with other shit, you lucked out ).

Though, I will say, whether it's reality warping or not, I'd still list as AP, at least for the Triforce itself given everything it does is a byproduct of it, it's no different then a magical artifact doing shit like creating universes or destroying them, just a slightly different scale to it, given that's literally the case.

Though it being Reality Warping, while I don't think it should effect what t itself gets AP from it, it does effect if other dude's scale off it, the Triforce's AP and the like is gotten through a method that makes scaling it directly literally impossible for the most part.

 

[Cyberblader90]

so what im hearing full triforce gets 3-a, users dont?

 

[TentTaku]

I feel like if it does apply to the Triforce’s AP, then it kinda has to scale to its user. As Cyber has shown in his scans, there’s plenty of statements indicating that the Triforce amps it’s user.

 

[Chariot190]

so what im hearing full triforce gets 3-a, users dont?

Not inherently.
If there's reason to think it empowers them with the full brunt of its capabilities, sure, scaling could work. But we'd need to be 100% on that front, on top of knowing when they're actually amping themselves. Because there's times were someone "has" the full thing but aren't quite using it.

The real issue is single pieces, because obviously one piece don't scale to the full of the artifact, not even ******* close. The full triforce is beyond the sum of its parts.

 

[Cyberblader90]

Not inherently.
If there's reason to think it empowers them with the full brunt of its capabilities, sure, scaling could work. But we'd need to be 100% on that front, on top of knowing when they're actually amping themselves. Because there's times were someone "has" the full thing but aren't quite using it.

The real issue is single pieces, because obviously one piece don't scale to the full of the artifact, not even ******* close. The full triforce is beyond the sum of its parts.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/zelda-tiering-and-scaling-revisions.119708/post-3948644

have you read this

 

[Chariot190]

I did yes. The issue isn't if it empowers them, because it does, blatantly, hell you could probably a hundred other scans atop that, but rather how much.

 

[Chariot190]

Actually this scan is pushing me towards agreeing with full empowerment.

It implies the only reason why Ganon couldn't use the full triforce was because of Link having a piece, but if Link hadn't, he would've been able, and as it says, "consolidate", explicitly in reference to the Triforce's "omnipotence" power.

"make (something) physically stronger or more solid."
"combine (a number of things) into a single more effective or coherent whole."

Yeah it seems to say that Ganon could've taken the Triforce's (omnipotent) power as a whole and added it to his own into a singular thing.

Linguistics imply at least in that instance, Ganon would've merged the Triforce's big dick energy power to his own.

 

[TentTaku]

I also found this. Maybe this could also be used as further confirmation of the user holding the Triforce’s complete or “true” power.

 

[Cyberblader90]

nice find