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not to derail, but:
These bombs as 8-A?
I disagree heavy
These bombs as 8-A?
I disagree heavy
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Zelda tiering and scaling revisions
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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- Thread starter
- #363
Pretty sure that’s supposed to be you being capable of using the triforce’s wish. As proven when Ganondorf had an imbalance of courage, wisdom and power and the triforce split because of that when he wanted his wish.
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Yeah, 8-A has to go. Nobody here agrees with that.
Dust_Collector
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So since all the bomb feats are getting heavily downgraded, maybe we could bring back the Wizzrobe scaling for the lower tiers we used back when they were 6-B. They create horizon spanning storms (Which with CAPE is 7-B) with their magical wands, and they can withstand being blasted by the same magic if Link uses their wands against them so they're also physically on the same level as the magic from the wands. Given their status as minibosses at best pretty much any normal boss monster should be above them.
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I mean, there isn't really any universal energy source for that kind of magic, right? Just cause they create storms doesn't mean that same energy goes into the blasts. Also at this rate it may be an outlier, I can't think of anything above 8-C for this tier of Zelda characters.
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- #367
So I assume everyone’s ok with me removing the bomb calc from the discussion part?
Dust_Collector
They/Them- 7,745
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They don't have multiple sources of energy they draw from, it's all just magic, I don't see why their energy blasts wouldn't have the same energy as their storms if they're both just done via the same source of energy, and they don't really struggle or put much effort into their storms either so it's not a concentrated spell that would need more energy put into it.
For it being an outlier, I'll admit I kinda forgot we were also scrapping the 8-A/Low 7-C calcs for the bombs and not just the High 7-A one so I brought up the wizzrobes thinking we already had some decent low end tier 7 stuff, so yeah probs an outlier then. Although the calc we use for lower tiers having Class M lifting strength also doubles as an 8-B feat, provided there's no issue with that calc either, so the lower tiers could be City Block level instead of building level if it checks out.
For it being an outlier, I'll admit I kinda forgot we were also scrapping the 8-A/Low 7-C calcs for the bombs and not just the High 7-A one so I brought up the wizzrobes thinking we already had some decent low end tier 7 stuff, so yeah probs an outlier then. Although the calc we use for lower tiers having Class M lifting strength also doubles as an 8-B feat, provided there's no issue with that calc either, so the lower tiers could be City Block level instead of building level if it checks out.
Yeah I don't think anyone has any objections for the bomb calc being removed.
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- Thread starter
- #369
Done
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Speaking of, apparently Wizzrobes in BOTW can cast storms? Maybe that should be looked into, they're kinda mid fodder.
Edit Oh that's literally what you're talking about, my bad I just woke up like, 2 minutes ago.
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I want to add my 5 cents to "Does the full Triforce empower its users?"
As I discussed with Dust Collector not much time ago, there seems to be a difference between wielding pieces of the Triforce and the entirety of it.
There are examples all over the series of the Full Trifoce being an item on its own, which doesn't empower its user, not is absorbed within them (unlike the single pieces).
In ALTTP it is stored behind Ganon's room, in Wind Waker it's a one-wish only thing, as seen when the king asks the flood of Hyrule, and the same in Skyward Sword when Link wishes the death of the Imprisoned in the present. In the latter two examples the Triforce just disappear after the wish is granted (but its pieces seemingly remain within their former owners).
Dust Collector also made me notice that Even in Zelda 2 Link summons the Triforce out into the open before using it to break the sleeping spell on Zelda.
All of this makes me very dubious about considering the Triforce as something that directly scales to its owners through some form of empowerment.
As I discussed with Dust Collector not much time ago, there seems to be a difference between wielding pieces of the Triforce and the entirety of it.
There are examples all over the series of the Full Trifoce being an item on its own, which doesn't empower its user, not is absorbed within them (unlike the single pieces).
In ALTTP it is stored behind Ganon's room, in Wind Waker it's a one-wish only thing, as seen when the king asks the flood of Hyrule, and the same in Skyward Sword when Link wishes the death of the Imprisoned in the present. In the latter two examples the Triforce just disappear after the wish is granted (but its pieces seemingly remain within their former owners).
Dust Collector also made me notice that Even in Zelda 2 Link summons the Triforce out into the open before using it to break the sleeping spell on Zelda.
All of this makes me very dubious about considering the Triforce as something that directly scales to its owners through some form of empowerment.
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- Thread starter
- #372
Now that you mention it, how are we scaling the individual Triforce pieces exactly? Is there anything from TP or any other game that has any noteworthy feats from the individual pieces?
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Yeah sure, assuming it empowers them at all times isn't gonna cut it, but there's also times where it does empower them directly in full.
It's not a one or the other type of thing. It can and has been both.
Just because a dude has it and isn't using it in one instance, doesn't mean that other time he was using it and its entirety somehow doesn't count now.
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At least for Ganon's piece of power, maybe just +1 to the highest feat that doesn't belong to anyone scaling to the full triforce or some god that are above the pieces individually?
Given the whole schtick of the ToP granting unparalleled magical and physical strength.
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One thing I noticed is that in the Ocarina of Time section of HH, it said that Ganondorf corrupted the sacred realm with just the Triforce of Power, although Cyber said in another thread that this was just a chain reaction. Perhaps he could elaborate on the chain reaction bit, but assuming it is an actual feat, would it be of any relevance?
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ill get you the full post on that in a bit
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- Thread starter
- #377
That sounds a bit like a hax feat if corrupting the sacred realm was all that happened. Also not really sure if we should even use that for the individual triforce pieces when the full triforce is supposed to dwarf all 3 individual pieces.
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We shouldn't. I don't think anyone here is gonna scale the whole thing to a single piece, the full triforce is definitely > the sum of its parts, that's kinda its whole point if anything.
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The encyclopedia confirms that it's the Triforce that acts as a mirror that reflects of the heart of whoever touches it and changes the realm accordingly via its own power.
Consistent with:
Consistent with:
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Empowerment is weird
this reddit post i think covers it well, thought the manuals for a link to the past do say it amps magic
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refer to this post for the manual stuff:
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Going by this, would it be reasonable to scale ToP above Majora?
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- Thread starter
- #384
wait a minute, so the sacred realm gets distorted by whoever sets foot in it? Doesn’t that contradict the triforce warping the sacred realm to the dark world?
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- #385
Full triforce definitely, not sure about individual pieces, though I can potentially see the individual pieces scaling above Malladus.
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It’s probably saying that while treating the use of the Triforce as an inevitability.
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i had a post for this in the dark world mega post, ill repost that part:
Continuity snarl
In Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf entered the Sacred Realm and it altered to become a Hell-like state because the realm changed due to Ganon’s heart. Then when he killed Link in the Downfall timeline, his wish on the Triforce changed the Sacred Realm fully into the Dark World. Instead of the Sacred Realm altering based on the hearts of those who entered it, it altered the people who entered based on their heart instead.
People entered the Sacred Realm prior to ALttP without having their forms changed (Link and Gandorf himself in ALTTP prologue manual). As well as the fact the triforce itself states what Ganon’s wish did in ALTTP and a lot of material directly references it’s power having influence over people. So when people say the Triforce altered the Sacred Realm they may be technically correct, even if a lot of the mechanics of the Sacred Realm are obtuse and indirect.
Link's wish however did undo the change, reverting the dark world back to the sacred realm, though as seen in the scan above, gradually.
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sacred realm auto corruption can be undone by a pure heart entering the sacred realm. that doesnt happen with the dark world. Its a more profound corruption done via a wish
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- Thread starter
- #389
I see, if that’s the case then I can see a 3-A via reality warping there, like I said before the fact it gradually fades away as opposed to instantly fade away makes it a bit iffy on it scaling to it fully.
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with all that said there is another possibility. The dark world wish can be an enhancement of sorts on the sacred realm's auto corruption. keep in mind my post above:
The sacred realm was left 'hell like" buy its own auto corruption, which in the downfall timeline wouldnt have been removed. Ganon would then later make his wish.
When the Sacred Realm is introduced in A Link to the Past, it’s explained that when Ganon seized the Triforce his wish turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. This makes sense in the context of that game given the manual states that the Moon Pearl protects the user from the magic of the Triforce. It's also stated that the people who enter take on the form of their inner thoughts due to the Triforce's power in the Dark World.
Note that last part.
The sacred realm was left 'hell like" buy its own auto corruption, which in the downfall timeline wouldnt have been removed. Ganon would then later make his wish.
When the Sacred Realm is introduced in A Link to the Past, it’s explained that when Ganon seized the Triforce his wish turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. This makes sense in the context of that game given the manual states that the Moon Pearl protects the user from the magic of the Triforce. It's also stated that the people who enter take on the form of their inner thoughts due to the Triforce's power in the Dark World.
Note that last part.
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I think the only time the full Triforce could be considered an empowerment is in Hyrule Warriors with Ganon, but even then he states that it was a combination of a wish and a ritual that got him into his Ganon form.
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Basically corrupting an already corrupted realm, using the same mechanics that did the first corruption, that now applies to individuals who enter the dark realm.
With this in mind, the feat at best is 3-a via reality warping, at worst unquantifiable
With this in mind, the feat at best is 3-a via reality warping, at worst unquantifiable
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The full triforce is the least of our issues tbh, pretty sure we can only solidly say it scales to sealing war Ganon as that's the only time it straight up said he took its power and added it to his own 
I'm on board with 3-A Triforce though for what that's worth even if it's just a very ehhh 3-A and in a obtuse manner, but scaling it to everyone who ever had it is a bit more subject to scrutiny, there's only one time I can say for sure and it's an instance that wouldn't actually scale to anyone else.
Calcing the other feats we can say for certain the ToP scales off would be optimal as that's what everyone worth a damn scales off of.
I'm on board with 3-A Triforce though for what that's worth even if it's just a very ehhh 3-A and in a obtuse manner, but scaling it to everyone who ever had it is a bit more subject to scrutiny, there's only one time I can say for sure and it's an instance that wouldn't actually scale to anyone else.
Calcing the other feats we can say for certain the ToP scales off would be optimal as that's what everyone worth a damn scales off of.
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i think we are close to wrapping up dark world
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I feel like distortion of the Sacred Realm and the creation of the Dark World should be treated as two separate major feats. There's several statements in Ocarina of Time that seem to indicate that the Sacred Realm has already fully transformed, barring the Temple of Light, in which Rauru is the last remaining force holding Ganondorf's evil back.
Yet despite this, everything else that we've seen treats the creation of the Dark World as it's own separate event entirely after he obtained the complete Triforce. It feels odd to that we would treat the Dark World's creation as just "adding on" to what was already more or less completed.
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its more so continuity issues. Keep in mind alot of the sources like manuals came out well before occarina, yet per the downfall time the sacred realm corruption did happen. Perhaps something offscreen undid that corruption, we dont know
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Actually I feel like my wording could have been misinterpreted. My argument is that the corrupted Sacred Realm in Ocarina of Time is not the same world as the Dark World. I'm trying the to argue that the creation of the Dark World is an entirely different creation feat beyond what already happened in Ocarina of Time, and thus isn't "corrupting and already corrupted world". I don't know if that was clear or not.
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I agree they are two separate events but the first event that being the sacred realm corruption was not undone in the downfall timeline which may carry over in some shape or form to the dark world corruption
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I still don’t really think it makes sense to assume that, considering how explicit A Link to The Past is that the Dark World is an entirely new world created by the Triforce, with other sources making the very clear distinction to show the Dark World is different enough to be separated from Sacred Realm. With how explicit everything is that it's the power of the Triforce that created the Dark World, it's just hard for me to accept that there was enough notable carry over from before he even had the Triforce to suddenly render the feat unquantifiable in any capacity.
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