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Lorule’s not even labeled as an alternate world in the Zelda encyclopedias last time I checked.
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Wind Fish Downgrade (Legend of Zelda)
- Thread starter Cyberblader90
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- #82
i recall there being some discrepancies between the english and japanese versions of the games
Per the english version, lorule took a while to "collapse". generations it seems
Per the english version, lorule took a while to "collapse". generations it seems
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I mean that makes sense, it's clearly in a state of decay by the time Link gets there
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Would that be true? Didn't it happen while Hilda was around? And she's only like mid teens? If I'm remembering right, that'd only put the collapse over the span of a few years at most.Per the english version, lorule took a while to "collapse".it seems
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that would still be an issue, only because of:
vsbattles.fandom.com
Stabilization Feats
This is a type of feat where a character's existence, energy, presence, or any given factor from them sustains a structure on any given scale. And through their sustenance, their statistics are subsequently tiered to being at the level of power that is relative to the given scale of the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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found the blog i recalled about this:
vsbattles.fandom.com
Explaining "Hyrule"
vsbattles.fandom.com
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The blog’s not finished
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Na version for lorule:
“Perhaps it’s only fair that I share a story with you.
It’s the legend of how Lorule fell to its…current condition.
Long ago, Lorule possessed a sacred golden treasure. It could grant the wish of anyone who touched it.
It was known as the Triforce in our world, as it is in yours.
Many sought to control the Triforce, plunging Lorule into endless war. Our kingdom was on the verge of ruin.
My ancestors got rid of the Triforce to stop the war-by destroying it. Utterly and absolutely.
It was done with good intentions. But it had disastrous consequences.
The Triforce was the foundation of our world, and without it, our kingdom crumbled.
Chaos has since reigned in Lorule.
We NEED a Triforce.”
JP version translation:
"Let's talk about this country for a bit. Long ago, there was a triangle that if touched, grants any wishes in Lorule. It's called Triforce. People fought over for this power, resulting in kingdom's collapse. The kingdom of Lorule, to stop this, destroyed the Triforce. But it backfired..... Triforce is a power of God. It's existence is the pillar of the world, holding it. With Lorule, not having the pillar, is destined to collapse. This land needs Triforce."
Both versions state it was long ago. For a 3/a/low 2-c view on this feat, this wont suffice with stabilization rule 3
“Perhaps it’s only fair that I share a story with you.
It’s the legend of how Lorule fell to its…current condition.
Long ago, Lorule possessed a sacred golden treasure. It could grant the wish of anyone who touched it.
It was known as the Triforce in our world, as it is in yours.
Many sought to control the Triforce, plunging Lorule into endless war. Our kingdom was on the verge of ruin.
My ancestors got rid of the Triforce to stop the war-by destroying it. Utterly and absolutely.
It was done with good intentions. But it had disastrous consequences.
The Triforce was the foundation of our world, and without it, our kingdom crumbled.
Chaos has since reigned in Lorule.
We NEED a Triforce.”
JP version translation:
"Let's talk about this country for a bit. Long ago, there was a triangle that if touched, grants any wishes in Lorule. It's called Triforce. People fought over for this power, resulting in kingdom's collapse. The kingdom of Lorule, to stop this, destroyed the Triforce. But it backfired..... Triforce is a power of God. It's existence is the pillar of the world, holding it. With Lorule, not having the pillar, is destined to collapse. This land needs Triforce."
Both versions state it was long ago. For a 3/a/low 2-c view on this feat, this wont suffice with stabilization rule 3
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Soooo I’m assuming the only one we have left for Universal is the Dark world feat? Cause I checked through all of the pages and they either have the Vaati scaling or the Wind Fish scaling for the 4-As and up.
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where is this from?
Dust_Collector
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That's from the end of A Link to the Past just after Link kills Ganon.
Dust_Collector
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The encyclopedia confirms that it's the Triforce that acts as a mirror that reflects of the heart of whoever touches it and changes the realm accordingly via its own power.
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Isn't that just Reality Warping?
Dust_Collector
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Yeah but I'm like 70% sure it's reality warping that scales to the AP of anyone who becomes empowered by the Triforce.
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He still created all the celestial objects within it which would make it 3-A, and it falls more under "Significant reality warping". Link also basically nukes the Dark World returning it into the Sacred Realm when he takes the Triforce from Ganon. And it's also consistently Triforce grants unlimited power and influence of Sacred Realm. While "Omnipotence" or "Limitless Power" are obvious hyperbole, the lowest the complete Triforce user can be interpreted is that they can destroy and recreate the Sacred Realm in their own image as many times as the user desires.
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Where did it state that he created the celestial objects? Also Link didn’t destroy the dark world he just wished the Dark World back into it being the sacred realm.
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He at the very least created an Earth and a Sun, it was the reason for the old High 4-C ratings before the Parallel Universal stuff was talked about in great length. Wishing for it to be returned would still be hakai'ing the created Earth and Sun and other great beyond objects.
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why would it include other great beyond objects and not just the sun and earth when we have no other proof anything beyond the one sun was made in that dimension?
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ok so for the sacred realm:
just want to mention the sacred realm corruption in ocarina is a chain reaction.
Now for dark world.
For the triforce, does it self grant the with, or the gods themselves?
I ask because of this line from wind waker:
Otherwise this is how its described how the triforce does things:
and lastly this line from OOT
心 正しき者が 願えば、ハイラルは 善き世界に 変わり… 心 悪しき者が 願えば、世界は 悪に 支配される… そう 伝えられていました。 “
If someone with a just heart wishes on it, Hyrule would become a world of good… And if someone with an evil heart wishes on it, the world would be ruled by evil… That is what is said.” -Zelda in OoT about the Triforce
Not sure how relevant this is here, but it seems the triforce empowering the characters wasnt a thing when a link to the past released:
just want to mention the sacred realm corruption in ocarina is a chain reaction.
Now for dark world.
For the triforce, does it self grant the with, or the gods themselves?
I ask because of this line from wind waker:
Otherwise this is how its described how the triforce does things:
and lastly this line from OOT
心 正しき者が 願えば、ハイラルは 善き世界に 変わり… 心 悪しき者が 願えば、世界は 悪に 支配される… そう 伝えられていました。 “
If someone with a just heart wishes on it, Hyrule would become a world of good… And if someone with an evil heart wishes on it, the world would be ruled by evil… That is what is said.” -Zelda in OoT about the Triforce
Not sure how relevant this is here, but it seems the triforce empowering the characters wasnt a thing when a link to the past released:
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Zant stuff not being accepted is stupid and about the souls.
"That shining sphere illuminates this world. It's called a Sol. It's like the sun of your world, Link." — Princess Midna (Twilight Princess)
"The Sols were like the suns that illuminate this world." — Princess Midna (Twilight Princess)
"The power of the Sol is the source of life in this world... It is pure power." — Princess Midna (Twilight Princess)
"The Master Sword infused with light. In the Twilight Realm, it shines with golden light." — N/A (Twilight Princess)
"Amazing... The power of the Sols has been transferred to your sword..." — Princess Midna (Twilight Princess )
Sols just don't "illuminate" the twilight realm they are also straight up used as a battery source to power said realm.
Its legit stated to be the source of life of the twilight realm and its considered pure power.
That same power used as a universal battery was transferred into the MS.
And Zelda is not a reliable source of information because she herself did not understand how the twilight realm actually worked plus official source materials straight up says this.
Yes it took time because Zants plans were getting halted thanks to several people plus he didn't even have a good portion of the ToP,just a small part of its power.
Plus dosent burden of proof fall on you guys to prove that the dimension vaati brings you to was "always" there?
When he dies the dimension literally dissappears with him. By that logic if Vaati wasn't the one that created it why would we be suddenly transported back into Hyrule?
This is just as ridiculous as the old arguments saying that Vaati's feat is just an illusion despite the fact never shown to be able to create illusions the whole game.
His feat was only achieved by using part of the light force because if you fail to get Zelda in time and let him absorb all of its power its an instant game over.
No matter what Vaati would still scale to Hylia's powers.
So please stop saying he's scales to wind fish when he scales to someone much better.
As for the dark world thing the Triforce directly amps the user physically too it. It has always been consistent throughout all the times it appeared (so does the Full Triforce and individual pieces of it).
Sacred realm being changed to the dark world just mean that the Triforce has full control over the realm it resides in and you need highly specific items to even exist within the dark world since you know you get.
Passively transmutated/Soul hax/erased out of existence.
Lorule is always considered a parallel world to Hyrule and the light world.
Hilda calls their triforce the very pillar of their world (which is consistent with the creation and myth and what happens to Lorule).
Yeah it took generations for it to crumble but during the game, (despite the fact at the end of the game our triforce was able to instantly fix the realm of Lorule the moment our wish was made.) there's been a bunch of cracks in space and time it's one of the things that allowed Yuga to find our triforce.
"Yuga discovered that there was a strange crack in this grim slate... Through it, we could sense that there was another world beyond ours... a place where the Triforce still existed. He and I devised the scheme that imperiled your kingdom. But I alone will set this right." — Princess Hild
And even if yall don't want to use this. It dosent change the fact that a single piece of triforce as enough power to fuse 2 universe together (its in the official material and again Zelda herself isn't a good source of information) literally any single piece of triforce users, potent light force users, Master sword scales to it and by proxy Full Triforce since it's above all of these things.
Breath of the wild Zelda created a new timeline (Age of calamity) via the Triforce and yes Age of calamity confirms the power Zelda use is the triforce so the ending of Breath of the wild isn't just "symbolism" despite the fact we literally see her pray to all 3 golden goddesses for them to grant her power.
TLDR:it makes no sense for Vaati's and Zant's feat to be denied since we have no proof of Vaati taking us into a pre existing world (why didn't he do that before then?) and not recognizing Zant's feat is also asinine since every thing that happens in the game point towards the fact both worlds were going to fuse together its just that several people were trying to slow down Zant.
And again he was only granted a small parts of the ToP's power.
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But in Zelda II we have Link being powered by the ToP and ToW.
Same thing for Yuga.
Breath of the wild/Age of Calamity Zelda
And any other games really.
At best it might have been an oversight for ALTTP but every game after it treats the Triforce and its pieces as a straight up empowering buff.
Same thing for Yuga.
Breath of the wild/Age of Calamity Zelda
And any other games really.
At best it might have been an oversight for ALTTP but every game after it treats the Triforce and its pieces as a straight up empowering buff.
Dust_Collector
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I'm not seeing how any of this proves the Sols act as a source to power the realm itself, just that they're the source of life and illuminate the realm in a similar fashion to the sun of the Light World. Being called pure power after calling them the source of life doesn't exactly sound like them powering and sustaining the actual realm.
Except nobody was really halting his plans until Link finally started taking action. The Light Spirits were subdued except for one (And he certainly wouldn't be able to prevent Zant from affecting the rest of the universe given how easily Zant was shown to knock one of the out), Midna couldn't hold him back, Zelda was a prisoner, there was nothing that could really slow him down and yet he his twilight doesn't even go up to the sky, it just blankets the country. Also him having a small part of the ToPs power doesn't really change much unless there's proof that it's full power can do the whole merging process in like hours or minutes or whatever.
Well the current standards are that if a sudden background shift changes to a starry sky then we need explict proof like a statement that proves it was a pocket dimension feat instead of teleportation or something. Link being sent back to Hyrule doesn't mean Vaati created it, whether he made it or if it was a pre-existing dimension Link logically shouldn't of randomly ended up back in Hyrule either way once Vaati was defeated, Link being transported to Hyrule is just plot bullshit so he isn't stuck in another plane of existence for all eternity, him getting back makes no difference in whether or not he made it. Hell, Skyward Sword has Link being transported back to the temple in the Sacred Grounds after he defeats Demise, and Demise didn't create the dimension Link fights him in and the only portal between the different dimensions vanished once Link entered. Your point of how saying it's just an illusion despite him never being shown to create illusions beforehand is ridiculous is frankly, just not a good point. Vaati isn't shown creating pocket dimensions the beforehand so by that logic him making the realm is also ridiculous. Is the ability to create pocket dimensions a well known ability the Light Force grants? Why should we assume that he's creating an entire dimension when he absorbs the Light Force? What about the Light Force makes it so likely that he made a pocket dimension?
Nobody was denying he wouldn't still scale to Hylias power, just that the 4-A feat isn't an actual feat. And nobody has been talking about him scaling to the Wind Fish anymore.
It's not confirmed that she has the Triforce, even the creating a champion guidebook directly calls into the question the link being her powers and the Triforce.
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ill mainly tackle vaatit and zant:
to quote you :
Nothing here proves sols empower the realm as you say. It is the source of life, but all other other quotes contextualize that on the illumination they gice, which makes sense as life requires illumination. Nothing here proves it to be a universal energy source.
Also for the merge, This was not something that was done instantly or on a universal scale. Zant essentially blankets sections of Hyrule Kingdom slowly over time, while Link enters these isolated locations one at a time to dispel them over the course of the game. You even see one of these areas go up near the start of the game.
For vaati, the issue is that we have no affirmation of any for this "feat", only conjecture.
vsbattles.fandom.com
Vaati making the realm is the highest most extraordinary interpretation possible.
to quote you :
Nothing here proves sols empower the realm as you say. It is the source of life, but all other other quotes contextualize that on the illumination they gice, which makes sense as life requires illumination. Nothing here proves it to be a universal energy source.
Also for the merge, This was not something that was done instantly or on a universal scale. Zant essentially blankets sections of Hyrule Kingdom slowly over time, while Link enters these isolated locations one at a time to dispel them over the course of the game. You even see one of these areas go up near the start of the game.
For vaati, the issue is that we have no affirmation of any for this "feat", only conjecture.
Creation Feats
Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Vaati making the realm is the highest most extraordinary interpretation possible.
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Oh good bye Low 2-C scaling
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Isn't the Dark World an exact albeit corrupted parallel of the main world?
Like unless the main world is missing all that stuff too...
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it's only stated to be a reflection of the user's heart, hence why Ganon touching the triforce turned the realm into the dark world.
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You sure? I recall in an older thread based on this that the Dark World (before corruption), was a reflection of the main world?
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I don't recall it being stated to be a reflection of the main world, just the whole "reflection of the heart", though if there is a statement that says that then it might work? Though Idk if warping the realm would count for AP with the stricter standards.
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Idk, I'm pretty sure there was a thread that posted a scan that said something along those lines with an argument that was basically "dark world (actually the spirit realm iirc but same thing) is uni in size because its straight up just the same shit as the normal world", forget who it was though that made it?
Cal maybe?
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Because there's people saying the Dark World isn't uni in size?
If the Spirit Realm, the thing that became the Dark World, is uni in size, well then the Dark World is too by virtue of being literally the same thing.
That should be pretty obvious Efi.
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this thread has evolved to have too many subjects. Can we leave dark world for another thread.
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Can we at least come to a conclusion for the wind fish and demise feat so we can move onto another thread talking about all the feats that needs to be evaluated?
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Kinda neutral on the Wind Fish, it's less one or the other and more like there's a **** ton of contradicting info that says it's one thing and info that says something else.
I don't wanna agree or disagree because technically, info and statements and etc exist on both ends.
Demise I guess is wrong though if raws say the opposite, I'd still double check the books though just to be certain but if not, then yeah, agree with removal as it's not a thing.
I don't wanna agree or disagree because technically, info and statements and etc exist on both ends.
Demise I guess is wrong though if raws say the opposite, I'd still double check the books though just to be certain but if not, then yeah, agree with removal as it's not a thing.
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It's described as parallel Dimension of the Light World and it has an Earth to Sun distance. And I already discussed bit by bit why it would have to be Universe sized via process of elimination.
- It's large enough to contain a planet and a star, High 4-C at minimum.
- It being a parallel dimension would also have to mirror the body of space regardless of whether or not it means Universe
- Either Light World and all of Hyrule and thus all dimensions are just Tier 4 sized pocket realities or they're Universes
- Light World also has starry skies, constellations, and atmospheres resembling the inside of the Milky Way Galaxy; so it cannot simply be High 4-C sized and it would have to be more 4-A at minimum
- But the logical assumption is that Hyrule is located in a physical Universe an assuming all parallel dimensions including Termina, or that other "Parallel Universe" from Oracle of Ages are Tier 4 or Galaxy sized pocket realities are even more assumptive.
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Let's leave this discussion to another thread, we still need to conclude this thread.
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bump
Dust_Collector
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So the general consensus seems to be that we shouldn't be scaling anything to the Wind Fish dreaming up Koholint and we got quite a decent number of staff being in favour of it and only a few people neutral about the downgrade. Only alternative to the downgrade was giving the Wind Fish a separate tier for subjective reality that doesn't scale to anyone anyway. Not sure how much more input is needed at the moment.
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