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YesHas any of you by any chance, told him to respond or look at this thread?
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Zamasu and his bad AE
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
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Hahaha very funny
MrKerf
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Result will be postponed then, until an expert arrives. 2 days left...
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- Thread starter
- #284
Not that it changes much anyway, as idea is NOT concept.
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Trying to attack Gowasu's credibility here is nonsensical. You're making it sound as if he's just some random schmuck that made a comment on the series which shouldn't be trusted, when that couldn't be further from the case.
Zamasu states multiple times during the arc that 'he is Justice!' or that he is 'the embodiment of Justice!' Although at that point it is complete hyperbole and not recognized by any of the series' characters for that reason. When he sheds his mortal body and at last becomes what he always wanted and claimed to be, the most knowledgeable character present at the time is used to tell the audience that Zamasu has merged with the concept of Justice. The Supreme Kai is used, who mind you has spent the most time out of any character in the series beholding Zamasu's delusions and always berated him for them, him recognizing Zamasu as having fused with the concept of Justice absolutely fits narratively and is to be trusted.
Just because this is the first time that Dragon Ball has delved into abstract concepts, doesn't make it any less applicable.
Nonsensical argument, a deity's knowledge can not be compared to one higher on the totem pole, and will more likely than not be lower. Kami and King Kai's knowledge are incomparable, same applies here.
An idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.
Zamasu had an idea concerning the concept of Justice and Order, an interpretation. Whether this interpretation of Justice was accurate or not is debatable due to Zamasu being revealed to be pure of heart when following this sense of Justice and Order, but it doesn't change the fact that both versions whether identical or not merged upon the birth of Infinite Zamasu.
So Infinite Zamasu came to embody the concept of Justice and Order, which he would have already been fully compatible with backed up by the fact that he was pure of heart,
Or the very concept of Justice and Order would have been shifted in order to fit in Zamasu's interpretation of it. In the end the concept of Justice & Order that applies across the timeline would be that of Zamasu's, whether it be the established version or one that had just sprouted as the old one ceased to exist.
NiniAtheist2005
He/Him- 58
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It seems that this CRT is heavily dependent on the staff, so in order not to derail the arguments should be reviewed by the staff so they can at least change their mind to agree or disagree
@pineappleman
@pineappleman
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Trying to attack Gowasu's credibility here is nonsensical. You're making it sound as if he's just some random schmuck that made a comment on the series which shouldn't be trusted, when that couldn't be further from the case.
Zamasu states multiple times during the arc that 'he is Justice!' or that he is 'the embodiment of Justice!' Although at that point it is complete hyperbole and not recognized by any of the series' characters for that reason. When he sheds his mortal body and at last becomes what he always wanted and claimed to be, the most knowledgeable character present at the time is used to tell the audience that Zamasu has merged with the concept of Justice. The Supreme Kai is used, who mind you has spent the most time out of any character in the series beholding Zamasu's delusions and always berated him for them, him recognizing Zamasu as having fused with the concept of Justice absolutely fits narratively and is to be trusted.
Just because this is the first time that Dragon Ball has delved into abstract concepts, doesn't make it any less applicable.
Nonsensical argument, a deity's knowledge can not be compared to one higher on the totem pole, and will more likely than not be lower. Kami and King Kai's knowledge are incomparable, same applies here.
An idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.
Zamasu had an idea concerning the concept of Justice and Order, an interpretation. Whether this interpretation of Justice was accurate or not is debatable due to Zamasu being revealed to be pure of heart when following this sense of Justice and Order, but it doesn't change the fact that both versions whether identical or not merged upon the birth of Infinite Zamasu.
So Infinite Zamasu came to embody the concept of Justice and Order, which he would have already been fully compatible with backed up by the fact that he was pure of heart,
Or the very concept of Justice and Order would have been shifted in order to fit in Zamasu's interpretation of it. In the end the concept of Justice & Order that applies across the timeline would be that of Zamasu's, whether it be the established version or one that had just sprouted as the old one ceased to exist.
Meudeus, what do you suggest we do here?
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- Thread starter
- #288
A lot of reach which is not supported from the source material.
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He legit abandoned his body and became incorpeal and the kanji for will as you said c an mean an idea so I don’t see what your argument here is
can you prove he’s not referring to Zamasu and he’s referring to a timeline?
Nah they’re similar it’s just explaining his abstraction
an Idea of something should be conceptual iirc
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Go ahead, point out what is not supported from the source material.
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can mean yes, what is the proof that it does in that instance instead of, for example, "thought" or "feeling"?
the burden of proving the positive "he is refering to zamasu" is on you
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or he is just embodying his own ideas and thoughts of justice and order instead of the literal concept of justice
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- Thread starter
- #293
Literally nothing says that his "pure heart" is relevant at this, and the only thing supporting the "becoming justice and order" is that one line Gowasu said, but I already refuted that.
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Vietthai96 translation:
The Combined Zamasu was torn apart by Trunks, but his Ideas soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth.
What i got with DeepL:
The combined Zamasu was cut open by Trunks, but his thoughts soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth.
It's argued that 念 can mean idea but as theglassman12 said その念 translates to thought/mind.
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Hiragana is just grammar, the kanji is what matters but regardless, 念 mainly stands for idea and thought than for concept and as per context and as much lore has explore in the dragonball, it's highly unlikely that it'll stand for concept rather it seems to stand for "he is trying to spread his sense/thought or idea of justice all throughout the universe by killing all mortals.
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His 'pure heart' is relevant because it shows that his actions and ideas don't come from a sense of selfishness, but actually through viewing himself as Justice & Order itself as he claims
Where?
NiniAtheist2005
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Please, some evidence for it, both me and @pineappleman have it, although it is few and weak, but you also need evidence to respond, not clichés argument
Can you tell me why you rejected Gowasu's words. Although it is not the main factor for whether IZ becomes a concept or not, what Gowasu said is more worthy of reference than Brazilian Translation(ya I know, Brazilian Translation is bad)
It was explained by Reiner
He could literally become the Universe itself to annihilate mortal beings so it would be reasonable to assume that he would also become literal justice and order so that he could arrange and creating a new justice and order in the simplest way, he has no reason to so "manually" propagate his ideals of justice, he only does it when while he has a physical body/God. Gowasu also said that he will become the universe first and then justice and order. If the universe is enough...then why have we been talking about justice and order so many times, both Gowasu and Artbook or even descriptions too talk about it
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And?
I didn't. I just refuted the line meaning Zamasu becoming literally a concept.
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How hard it is to conceive that we don't grant conceptual manipulation for an evidence as weak as this with little to no explanation at all about the nature or his relation to the object it may be bound to, not to mention it even being concept or whatever for being literal is to say his sense of justice is the only thing to exist which is not the case. And as it seems like going needlessly further with no evidence rather than weak or anything, there is no point in arguing.
"Manually"? Zamasu is the universe itself? It's spacetime itself? He isn't doing it manually, he is everywhere and can do it in one go.
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By establishing that Zamasu views himself as Justice & Order, which is backed up by the series telling us that his actions are pure-hearted, and Zamasu then merges with that same Justice & Order, and the show telling us that he has become one with that concept..
We conclude that Zamasu has conceptual Abstract Existence, it's not complicated.
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"cliché"? dude all i did was shown a more likely interpretation for everything that he said, you are the one who need evidence of him becoming a literal concept when him becoming his ideas is a more likely interpretation and fits the narrative
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why does the pure heart part matters at all?
yes it is when nothing about him becoming the concept is ever brought up, only him becoming his own idea of justice and order, he is becoming an idea and not the literal concept, him becoming the ideas and thoughts he believes fits the narrative perfectly since it is made clear that what zamasu believes is not true justice and order
also, if zamasu became the literal concept of justice and order, how can people still do justice and still uphold order after zamasu is erased? if he is justice and order as a concept, then the said concepts do not exist anymore and no one should be able to even know what these things are
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Serves as supplementary information to the point that we're making, confirms that Zamasu identifying as Justice & Order isn't hyperbole and is a matter of fact (according to himself at that point) and once he becomes Infinite Zamasu that becomes reality to the entire timeline (as stated by Gowasu)
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as described here Zamasu strongly believes in justice a lot, and later in the anime he quotes that he became justice and order itself, how can that be hyperbole? Since he knows about the concept of Justice and believes strongly.
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when? the original material has nothing like that
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Found the context “Well basically, Jiren in a Time Rift timeline joined Zamasu and Black to complete their Zero Mortals Plan. Zamasu stated that their ideals of justice left such an impression on Jiren (he was actually brainwashed by Dabura but whateves) that he decided to join them. Fu then follows up with his statement”
thetechmaster36
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Meh, I'm neutral on this, but I really don't feel like getting more involved in this thread than this post because debating Dragon Ball in this day and age is honestly cancerous and I'm not for it right now
But I feel like I need to address this whole thing about "hyperbole". Nobody is saying this is hyperbole. Like, at all. What's being said is that the statements being made aren't literal, and serve merely as symbolism that pertains to Zamasu's ideals of "justice and order" that he has preached many times in the arc. That is to say, that his "justice and order" is to bring an end to all mortals and create his ideal world and have his dream come true.
With statements of him "becoming justice and order", and with the prior context we've received, it's more accurate to say that Zamasu is actualizing his justice and order through his will and actions, and not just him becoming. . .the concepts of justice and order.
But like I said, I ain't debating past this post. Y'all can reply to it if you want, I just can't be bothered to debate Dragon Ball stuff rn because it gives me brain damage sometimes. No offense to any of you, btw
But I feel like I need to address this whole thing about "hyperbole". Nobody is saying this is hyperbole. Like, at all. What's being said is that the statements being made aren't literal, and serve merely as symbolism that pertains to Zamasu's ideals of "justice and order" that he has preached many times in the arc. That is to say, that his "justice and order" is to bring an end to all mortals and create his ideal world and have his dream come true.
With statements of him "becoming justice and order", and with the prior context we've received, it's more accurate to say that Zamasu is actualizing his justice and order through his will and actions, and not just him becoming. . .the concepts of justice and order.
But like I said, I ain't debating past this post. Y'all can reply to it if you want, I just can't be bothered to debate Dragon Ball stuff rn because it gives me brain damage sometimes. No offense to any of you, btw
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Again, not in the literal sense.
This wiki's issue is to take statements waaaay too literally ignoring the context.
I already explained why in the OP anyways, so I won't repeat myself.
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yeah and his statement still has no connections to infinite zamasu, i am really confused at how Fu not caring about abstract stuff instead of concrete stuff proves anything, but i feel like we are going in circles at this point
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Oh it's "hyperbole", just because something you don't like doesn't mean it's hyperbole, my dear little friend.
Already woken up on another CRT which is not a hyperbole so have some tea to calm down and come back be fair
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- #313
Nice strawman.
I never said it's hyperbole, only that you're misinterpreting that statement from taking it too literally lol.
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It's not literal via you don't like it is it? Because that's what's going on, we're all waiting for you to prove to us that it's not literal, because you only have lips, but you can't prove it, little friend
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- #315
The entire Original Post explains a more logical way to interpret it in context.
Stop dodging.
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Oh yes I believe so
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- #317
About the Xenoverse Zamasu thing, this is where the quote comes from.
As you can see, the issues are blatant:
As you can see, the issues are blatant:
- Infinite Zamasu does not even appear during the DLC
- Fu is only making a comment about Zamasu's beliefs
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Oh no, Fu making a quote about justice being abstract in the Black Saga, but not referring to Zamasu
Infinite Zamasu doesn't even appear? What's this here then?
Exact video time 14:51
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He is infinite Zamasu.....!?
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No no wait.
The "Justice" statement comes from Tokipedia.
That's the Future Saga. It's another thing. The statement from Fuu comes after that.
The "Justice" statement comes from Tokipedia.
That's the Future Saga. It's another thing. The statement from Fuu comes after that.
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