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YesHas any of you by any chance, told him to respond or look at this thread?
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YesHas any of you by any chance, told him to respond or look at this thread?
Hahaha very funny
Result will be postponed then, until an expert arrives. 2 days left...
Trying to attack Gowasu's credibility here is nonsensical. You're making it sound as if he's just some random schmuck that made a comment on the series which shouldn't be trusted, when that couldn't be further from the case.Like, the entire plot revolves around Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks attempting to prevent Zamasu from carrying out his ultimate "justice"—the Zero Mortal Plan. The plot has revolved around Zamasu's skewed sense of justice and self-righteousness. Why now is "justice" being used to describe the concept of justice, with Zamasu literally transforming into the concept, and not Zamasu's goals of molding the universe in his image? Not only does that fit narratively, but, hey, Occam's razor-
The concept of... concepts has never been explored in Dragon Ball lore before or after the "Future" Trunks Saga. For Gowasu to, all of a sudden, be an expert on a subject that the franchise itself has yet to introduce or explore is nonsensical.
Mainly because Dragon Ball has never explored abstract concepts and the mechanics of space, time, and the beyond... beyond the laws of time travel. The Kai are gods as well, and they have the same jobs as the Supreme Kai, but on a limited scale. Is King Kai an expert on abstract concepts, too?
Nonsensical argument, a deity's knowledge can not be compared to one higher on the totem pole, and will more likely than not be lower. Kami and King Kai's knowledge are incomparable, same applies here.The Kai are gods as well, and they have the same jobs as the Supreme Kai, but on a limited scale. Is King Kai an expert on abstract concepts, too?
An idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.Not that it changes much anyway, as idea is NOT concept.
Trying to attack Gowasu's credibility here is nonsensical. You're making it sound as if he's just some random schmuck that made a comment on the series which shouldn't be trusted, when that couldn't be further from the case.
Zamasu states multiple times during the arc that 'he is Justice!' or that he is 'the embodiment of Justice!' Although at that point it is complete hyperbole and not recognized by any of the series' characters for that reason. When he sheds his mortal body and at last becomes what he always wanted and claimed to be, the most knowledgeable character present at the time is used to tell the audience that Zamasu has merged with the concept of Justice. The Supreme Kai is used, who mind you has spent the most time out of any character in the series beholding Zamasu's delusions and always berated him for them, him recognizing Zamasu as having fused with the concept of Justice absolutely fits narratively and is to be trusted.
Just because this is the first time that Dragon Ball has delved into abstract concepts, doesn't make it any less applicable.
Nonsensical argument, a deity's knowledge can not be compared to one higher on the totem pole, and will more likely than not be lower. Kami and King Kai's knowledge are incomparable, same applies here.
An idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.
Zamasu had an idea concerning the concept of Justice and Order, an interpretation. Whether this interpretation of Justice was accurate or not is debatable due to Zamasu being revealed to be pure of heart when following this sense of Justice and Order, but it doesn't change the fact that both versions whether identical or not merged upon the birth of Infinite Zamasu.
So Infinite Zamasu came to embody the concept of Justice and Order, which he would have already been fully compatible with backed up by the fact that he was pure of heart,
Or the very concept of Justice and Order would have been shifted in order to fit in Zamasu's interpretation of it. In the end the concept of Justice & Order that applies across the timeline would be that of Zamasu's, whether it be the established version or one that had just sprouted as the old one ceased to exist.
In the English translation it also says "ideas", that is, there is nothing wrong here, ideas and concepts are all the same in Japanese, described by @Vietthai96, I think he should leave it to those who really understand Japanese before trying to downgrade something.
Honestly, before Vietthai came, the cause of IZ became a concept, I think he should still have it now. Not because of the translation (ah sometimes) but for what he shows in the movie
I'll ignore the Brazilian translations for now. Because it looks really illegal and weird
I. THE TRANSLATION
"トランクスに切り裂かれた合体ザマスだったが、その念は空へと舞い上がり地球全体を包み込んだ"
The Kanji in the above line is "念", which means wish, sense, idea, thought, feeling, desire, attention
The Kanji "想" also has the same meaning as "念", which means concept, think, idea, thought
So...both can be understood in the same mean, is "idea"
I agree with you that "ideas" are not always "concepts". But according to the context when IZ became like that, and also the ideals of Zamasu's life as a god. I think, "idea" in context is talking about Zamasu trying to be the very concept of justice. I will prove it
II. ZAMASU'S IDEA BEFORE BECOMING ONE WITH THE UNIVERSE
1. Zamasu easily made his emotions/thoughts into "real", so in the final form, it must also be something more abstract.
Scan:
In 3:48
Gowasu: That is Zamasu's complex emotions made real
And at the same time, Zamasu gave off a large Ki aura, which also included his thoughts (in DBV there are cases where it is possible to read other people's minds just by sensing their Ki)
Emotions(feeling/desire/attention) Thoughts(sense/wish)
So to realize his ideal quickly, the only way is for him to become the ideal himself
2. Personality of Zamasu
Zamasu throughout the series has always talked about his ideals, the ideals of justice and order, he rummaged through many different timelines just to prove his justice.
He is disgusted with the living universe of humans and will destroy it as stated in the manga, he is also disgusted with the existence of the living universe in the anime so he becomes the universe itself to destroy them
A similar motif is extended to his ideal, he succeeds in showing people hate and hatred, showing people his own emotions and thoughts. So in the end he will become those very ideas
Also to make it clear, I am not suggesting to nuke his AE but only change the description of it mentioned in the profile from being concept, as it's misleading if those one resisted or destroyed it doesn't have conceptual manipulation, also, it is unexplained to grant it and misleading. Just replace it with something else.
Meudeus, what do you suggest we do here?NiniAthiest sounds like he's being open-minded, it just means that both interpretations can be seen as equally accurate.
A lot of reach which is not supported from the source material.An idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.
Zamasu had an idea concerning the concept of Justice and Order, an interpretation. Whether this interpretation of Justice was accurate or not is debatable due to Zamasu being revealed to be pure of heart when following this sense of Justice and Order, but it doesn't change the fact that both versions whether identical or not merged upon the birth of Infinite Zamasu.
So Infinite Zamasu came to embody the concept of Justice and Order, which he would have already been fully compatible with backed up by the fact that he was pure of heart,
Or the very concept of Justice and Order would have been shifted in order to fit in Zamasu's interpretation of it. In the end the concept of Justice & Order that applies across the timeline would be that of Zamasu's, whether it be the established version or one that had just sprouted as the old one ceased to exist.
He legit abandoned his body and became incorpeal and the kanji for will as you said c an mean an idea so I don’t see what your argument here isFirstly, the source is an Artbook. Tertiary information, at best.
Secondly, the exact quote was "トランクスに切り裂かれた合体ザマスだったが、その念は空へと舞い上がり地球全体を包み込んだ", which can be translated, roughly, into "The combined Zamasu was cut open by Trunks, but his thoughts soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth". How this text was interpreted as "Zamasu transformed into a concept" is completely bogus, taking into account the fact that the definition of word "念" is "sense; idea; thought; feeling", which fits the narrative's of Zamasu's twisted will taking an ethereal form—which is described as a 気の奔流/"torrent of energy" by the official episode summary on Toei's website—after his physical body was destroyed, and the meaning of the kanji is "wish, sense, idea, thought, feeling, desire, attention".
Zamasu is not literally abandoning his body to become an abstract existence, nor did he become one with the abstract concept of justice and order; his remaining immortal will took flight after his body was destroyed.
can you prove he’s not referring to Zamasu and he’s referring to a timeline?I love how the Wiki accepts Fu's remarks about "ideals" and "justice" being "too abstract" as proof that justice is literally an abstract concept, when, in the next ******* sentence, he comments about only wanting to experiment and "[extract] hard data".
"Abstract", in this context, just means "I can't touch an ideal, and I can't play around with a justice like I can with a timeline."
Nah they’re similar it’s just explaining his abstractionOkay...it seems the description in Artbook and Website seems to be different, so which information source should we prioritize? Both are from Toei
an Idea of something should be conceptual iircNot that it changes much anyway, as idea is NOT concept.
Go ahead, point out what is not supported from the source material.A lot of reach which is not supported from the source material.
can mean yes, what is the proof that it does in that instance instead of, for example, "thought" or "feeling"?He legit abandoned his body and became incorpeal and the kanji for will as you said c an mean an idea so I don’t see what your argument here is
the burden of proving the positive "he is refering to zamasu" is on youcan you prove he’s not referring to Zamasu and he’s referring to a timeline?
or he is just embodying his own ideas and thoughts of justice and order instead of the literal concept of justiceAn idea is not a concept under normal circumstances, but these circumstances are far from normal.
Zamasu had an idea concerning the concept of Justice and Order, an interpretation. Whether this interpretation of Justice was accurate or not is debatable due to Zamasu being revealed to be pure of heart when following this sense of Justice and Order, but it doesn't change the fact that both versions whether identical or not merged upon the birth of Infinite Zamasu.
So Infinite Zamasu came to embody the concept of Justice and Order, which he would have already been fully compatible with backed up by the fact that he was pure of heart,
Or the very concept of Justice and Order would have been shifted in order to fit in Zamasu's interpretation of it. In the end the concept of Justice & Order that applies across the timeline would be that of Zamasu's, whether it be the established version or one that had just sprouted as the old one ceased to exist.
Literally nothing says that his "pure heart" is relevant at this, and the only thing supporting the "becoming justice and order" is that one line Gowasu said, but I already refuted that.Go ahead, point out what is not supported from the source material.
His 'pure heart' is relevant because it shows that his actions and ideas don't come from a sense of selfishness, but actually through viewing himself as Justice & Order itself as he claimsLiterally nothing says that his "pure heart" is relevant at this
Where?and the only thing supporting the "becoming justice and order" is that one line Gowasu said, but I already refuted that.
Please, some evidence for it, both me and @pineappleman have it, although it is few and weak, but you also need evidence to respond, not clichés argumentor he is just embodying his own ideas and thoughts of justice and order instead of the literal concept of justice
Can you tell me why you rejected Gowasu's words. Although it is not the main factor for whether IZ becomes a concept or not, what Gowasu said is more worthy of reference than Brazilian Translation(ya I know, Brazilian Translation is bad)and the only thing supporting the "becoming justice and order" is that one line Gowasu said, but I already refuted that.
It was explained by ReinerWhat i got with DeepL:
The combined Zamasu was cut open by Trunks, but his thoughts soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth.
He could literally become the Universe itself to annihilate mortal beings so it would be reasonable to assume that he would also become literal justice and order so that he could arrange and creating a new justice and order in the simplest way, he has no reason to so "manually" propagate his ideals of justice, he only does it when while he has a physical body/God. Gowasu also said that he will become the universe first and then justice and order. If the universe is enough...then why have we been talking about justice and order so many times, both Gowasu and Artbook or even descriptions too talk about it"he is trying to spread his sense/thought or idea of justice all throughout the universe by killing all mortals.
And?His 'pure heart' is relevant because it shows that his actions and ideas don't come from a sense of selfishness, but actually through viewing himself as Justice & Order itself as he claims
I didn't. I just refuted the line meaning Zamasu becoming literally a concept.Can you tell me why you rejected Gowasu's words.
How hard it is to conceive that we don't grant conceptual manipulation for an evidence as weak as this with little to no explanation at all about the nature or his relation to the object it may be bound to, not to mention it even being concept or whatever for being literal is to say his sense of justice is the only thing to exist which is not the case. And as it seems like going needlessly further with no evidence rather than weak or anything, there is no point in arguing.literal justice and order
"Manually"? Zamasu is the universe itself? It's spacetime itself? He isn't doing it manually, he is everywhere and can do it in one go.manually" propagate his ideals of justice
By establishing that Zamasu views himself as Justice & Order, which is backed up by the series telling us that his actions are pure-hearted, and Zamasu then merges with that same Justice & Order, and the show telling us that he has become one with that concept..And?
"cliché"? dude all i did was shown a more likely interpretation for everything that he said, you are the one who need evidence of him becoming a literal concept when him becoming his ideas is a more likely interpretation and fits the narrativePlease, some evidence for it, both me and @pineappleman have it, although it is few and weak, but you also need evidence to respond, not clichés argument
why does the pure heart part matters at all?By establishing that Zamasu views himself as Justice & Order, which is backed up by the series telling us that his actions are pure-hearted
yes it is when nothing about him becoming the concept is ever brought up, only him becoming his own idea of justice and order, he is becoming an idea and not the literal concept, him becoming the ideas and thoughts he believes fits the narrative perfectly since it is made clear that what zamasu believes is not true justice and order, and Zamasu then merges with that same Justice & Order, and the show telling us that he has become one with that concept..
We conclude that Zamasu has conceptual Abstract Existence, it's not complicated.
Serves as supplementary information to the point that we're making, confirms that Zamasu identifying as Justice & Order isn't hyperbole and is a matter of fact (according to himself at that point) and once he becomes Infinite Zamasu that becomes reality to the entire timeline (as stated by Gowasu)why does the pure heart part matters at all?
as described here Zamasu strongly believes in justice a lot, and later in the anime he quotes that he became justice and order itself, how can that be hyperbole? Since he knows about the concept of Justice and believes strongly.Serves as supplementary information to the point that we're making, confirms that Zamasu identifying as Justice & Order isn't hyperbole and is a matter of fact (according to himself at that point) and once he becomes Infinite Zamasu that becomes reality to the entire timeline (as stated by Gowasu)
when? the original material has nothing like thatand later in the anime he quotes that he became justice and order itself
Found the context “Well basically, Jiren in a Time Rift timeline joined Zamasu and Black to complete their Zero Mortals Plan. Zamasu stated that their ideals of justice left such an impression on Jiren (he was actually brainwashed by Dabura but whateves) that he decided to join them. Fu then follows up with his statement”can mean yes, what is the proof that it does in that instance instead of, for example, "thought" or "feeling"?
the burden of proving the positive "he is refering to zamasu" is on you
...and is trying to become justice and order itself.when? the original material has nothing like that
Again, not in the literal sense.
yeah and his statement still has no connections to infinite zamasu, i am really confused at how Fu not caring about abstract stuff instead of concrete stuff proves anything, but i feel like we are going in circles at this pointFound the context “Well basically, Jiren in a Time Rift timeline joined Zamasu and Black to complete their Zero Mortals Plan. Zamasu stated that their ideals of justice left such an impression on Jiren (he was actually brainwashed by Dabura but whateves) that he decided to join them. Fu then follows up with his statement”
Oh it's "hyperbole", just because something you don't like doesn't mean it's hyperbole, my dear little friend.Again, not in the literal sense.
This wiki's issue is to take statements waaaay too literally ignoring the context.
I already explained why in the OP anyways, so I won't repeat myself.
Nice strawman.Oh it's "hyperbole", just because something you don't like doesn't mean it's hyperbole, my dear little friend.
Already woken up on another CRT which is not a hyperbole so have some tea to calm down and come back be fair
It's not literal via you don't like it is it? Because that's what's going on, we're all waiting for you to prove to us that it's not literal, because you only have lips, but you can't prove it, little friendNice strawman.
I never said it's hyperbole, only that you're misinterpreting that statement from taking it too literally lol.
The entire Original Post explains a more logical way to interpret it in context.It's not literal via you don't like it is it? Because that's what's going on, we're all waiting for you to prove to us that it's not literal, because you only have lips, but you can't prove it, little friend
Oh yes I believe soThe entire Original Post explains a more logical way to interpret it in context.
Stop dodging.
Oh no, Fu making a quote about justice being abstract in the Black Saga, but not referring to ZamasuAbout the Xenoverse Zamasu thing, this is where the quote comes from.
As you can see, the issues are blatant:
Aka applying this to Infinite Zamasu is obviously dumb and a reach, as Fu was clearly not thinking about that form lmao.
- Infinite Zamasu does not even appear during the DLC
- Fu is only making a comment about Zamasu's beliefs
He is infinite Zamasu.....!?Infinite Zamasu doesn't even appear? What's this here then?