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Zamasu and his bad AE

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I thought it was not necessary to use the word "concept" to gain Conceptual AE? Because some of the verses I have seen don't literally use the word "concept" and still gain Conceptual AE due to having a statement like "becoming [concept] itself", or something along the lines.
 
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Arthex said:
I thought it was not necessary to use the word "concept" to gain Conceptual AE? Because some of the verses I have seen don't literally use the word "concept" and still gain Conceptual AE due to having a statement of "becoming [concept] itself", or something along the lines.
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Don't notice, it's only with DB that this happens, where other verses can have their conceptual characters and DB doesn't, because it's a famous work, until a while ago there were people saying that it's hyperbole, being that they accepted for less characters to be concepts
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Don't notice, it's only with DB that this happens, where other verses can have their conceptual characters and DB doesn't, because it's a famous work, until a while ago there were people saying that it's hyperbole, being that they accepted for less characters to be concepts
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Not really lol, bleach has the same thing where it's not literally stated to embody a said concept
It's not accepted there either
Bleach even has more proof funnily enough
 
Hellscream said:
Not really lol, bleach has the same thing where it's not literally stated to embody a said concept
It's not accepted there either
Bleach even has more proof funnily enough
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Bleach still has conceptual manipulation, I know about the work, and it seems that it has a basis, but some do not even have a context where a certain work cites "hatred" itself and others already technically make it conceptual
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Don't notice, it's only with DB that this happens, where other verses can have their conceptual characters and DB doesn't, because it's a famous work, until a while ago there were people saying that it's hyperbole, being that they accepted for less characters to be concepts
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Argee, conceptual statement in DB is estranged. Seeing Toshiro's type 3 conceptual manipulation makes me sick
 
omegabronic said:
no? i said that it was just Fu ranging about how these things are too abstract for his liking and that nothing on it connects to zamasu becoming the concepts themselves
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So Zamasu is just randomly said to trying to become justice and order itself and Fu hypothetically just mentions it when Zamasu is around okay…
Thelastmlg said:
that is not a indicator that zamasu became those things, at best it is a indicator that fu doesn't care about those things that matter for zamasu, considering he went on wanting just data.

i seriously don't get how you guys are interpretenting this as zamasu being those two things when nothing in the scene even implies such meaning
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He’s stated to become that idea from what I’ve sent
Nullflowerblush said:
Hey, why exactly is Gowasu an expert on the nature of concepts all of a sudden?
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wdym? also it’s not just Gowasu its multiple stuff like Zamasu stated to becoming an idea
 
godofice said:
So Zamasu is just randomly said to trying to become justice and order itself and Fu hypothetically just mentions it when Zamasu is around okay…
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Fu speech does not prove in any way that zamasu became these things conceptually, it is just fu talking about how he prefer concrete things like data in comparison

godofice said:
He’s stated to become that idea from what I’ve sent
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which has no connection to what Fu said whatsoever
 
omegabronic said:
Fu speech does not prove in any way that zamasu became these things conceptually, it is just fu talking about how he prefer concrete things like data in comparison


which has no connection to what Fu said whatsoever
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Well Zamasu being the ideas of Justice idk if that qualifies as conceptual anymore from what you’ve said in page 1 but if it doesn’t then 🤷‍♀️

Perhaps but it’s a connection to the blu ray disc and toei timeline and anime which means it correlates to xv2
omegabronic said:
being a god matters on this subject because?
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is this a joke? Why would a god of creation not be knowledgeable on stuff?
 
godofice said:
Well Zamasu being the ideas of Justice idk if that qualifies as conceptual anymore from what you’ve said in page 1 but if it doesn’t then 🤷‍♀️

Perhaps but it’s a connection to the blu ray disc and toei timeline and anime which means it correlates to xv2

is this a joke? Why would a god of creation not be knowledgeable on stuff?
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Gods in DBS aren't omniscient or all knowing, they're not even that intelligent.

Heck, they barely knew shit about the saiyan race, let alone this subject
 
godofice said:
Well it’s not an assumption he’s a literal god
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The concept of... concepts has never been explored in Dragon Ball lore before or after the "Future" Trunks Saga. For Gowasu to, all of a sudden, be an expert on a subject that the franchise itself has yet to introduce or explore is nonsensical.

Like, the entire plot revolves around Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks attempting to prevent Zamasu from carrying out his ultimate "justice"—the Zero Mortal Plan. The plot has revolved around Zamasu's skewed sense of justice and self-righteousness. Why now is "justice" being used to describe the concept of justice, with Zamasu literally transforming into the concept, and not Zamasu's goals of molding the universe in his image? Not only does that fit narratively, but, hey, Occam's razor—to claim that Zamasu is becoming the literal concept of justice itself, a concept that has yet to exist up until that point and has never established beyond that singular line of dialogue, requires far more assumptions and logical gymnastics than claiming that, by merging with the universe, Zamasu has effectively become the ultimate judge, jury, and executor, capable of exacting his self-perceived justice without any resistance.

Besides, the Supreme Kai are the Gods of Creation, breathing essence into celestial bodies to populate the universe with intelligent life, and keeping a watchful eye on the cosmos of the lower realms. Their role in the universe as "gods" is purely cosmological, and has nothing to do with abstract concepts and the mechanics of space, time, and the beyond. Mainly because Dragon Ball has never explored abstract concepts and the mechanics of space, time, and the beyond... beyond the laws of time travel. The Kai are gods as well, and they have the same jobs as the Supreme Kai, but on a limited scale. Is King Kai an expert on abstract concepts, too?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
The concept of... concepts has never been explored in Dragon Ball lore before or after the "Future" Trunks Saga. For Gowasu to, all of a sudden, be an expert on a subject that the franchise itself has yet to introduce or explore is nonsensical.

Like, the entire plot revolves around Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks attempting to prevent Zamasu from carrying out his ultimate "justice"—the Zero Mortal Plan. The plot has revolved around Zamasu's skewed sense of justice and self-righteousness. Why now is "justice" being used to describe the concept of justice, with Zamasu literally transforming into the concept, and not Zamasu's goals of molding the universe in his image? Not only does that fit narratively, but, hey, Occam's razor—to claim that Zamasu is becoming the literal concept of justice itself, a concept that has yet to exist up until that point and has never established beyond that singular line of dialogue, requires far more assumptions and logical gymnastics than claiming that, by merging with the universe, Zamasu has effectively become the ultimate judge, jury, and executor, capable of exacting his self-perceived justice without any resistance.
Click to expand...
Exactly this.
 
Hellscream said:
Gods in DBS aren't omniscient or all knowing, they're not even that intelligent.

Heck, they barely knew shit about the saiyan race, let alone this subject
Click to expand...
Gowasu knows stuff about the Saiyan race wdym? And if you’re referring to King Kai he’s not even a knowledgeable supreme Kai Shin got the mantle of supreme kai too early as his mentors died Gowasu is a supreme Kai with toms of experience
Nullflowerblush said:
The concept of... concepts has never been explored in Dragon Ball lore before or after the "Future" Trunks Saga. For Gowasu to, all of a sudden, be an expert on a subject that the franchise itself has yet to introduce or explore is nonsensical.

Like, the entire plot revolves around Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks attempting to prevent Zamasu from carrying out his ultimate "justice"—the Zero Mortal Plan. The plot has revolved around Zamasu's skewed sense of justice and self-righteousness. Why now is "justice" being used to describe the concept of justice, with Zamasu literally transforming into the concept, and not Zamasu's goals of molding the universe in his image? Not only does that fit narratively, but, hey, Occam's razor—to claim that Zamasu is becoming the literal concept of justice itself, a concept that has yet to exist up until that point and has never established beyond that singular line of dialogue, requires far more assumptions and logical gymnastics than claiming that, by merging with the universe, Zamasu has effectively become the ultimate judge, jury, and executor, capable of exacting his self-perceived justice without any resistance.

Besides, the Supreme Kai are the Gods of Creation, breathing essence into celestial bodies to populate the universe with intelligent life, and keeping a watchful eye on the cosmos of the lower realms. Their role in the universe as "gods" is purely cosmological, and has nothing to do with abstract concepts and the mechanics of space, time, and the beyond. Mainly because Dragon Ball has never explored abstract concepts and the mechanics of space, time, and the beyond... beyond the laws of time travel. The Kai are gods as well, and they have the same jobs as the Supreme Kai, but on a limited scale. Is King Kai an expert on abstract concepts, too?
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it’s not just from gowasu’s statement it’s from the actual guides

dragon ball hasn’t explored abstraction in depth but that doesn’t mean that it can’t happen and time travel is explored upon I don’t know if King Kai is an expert on abstraction but Gowasu’s comments are supported by guides so he probably is knowledgeable on it
 
godofice said:
Gowasu knows stuff about the Saiyan race wdym? And if you’re referring to King Kai he’s not even a knowledgeable supreme Kai Shin got the mantle of supreme kai too early as his mentors died Gowasu is a supreme Kai with toms of experience

it’s not just from gowasu’s statement it’s from the actual guides

dragon ball hasn’t explored abstraction in depth but that doesn’t mean that it can’t happen and time travel is explored upon I don’t know if King Kai is an expert on abstraction but Gowasu’s comments are supported by guides so he probably is knowledgeable on it
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Dude kept getting surprised by their race time after time during their fight with zamasu, which obviously means his intelligence and knowledge can be questioned.
Im specifically talking about Gowasu.
 
godofice said:
it’s from the actual guides
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Firstly, the source is an Artbook. Tertiary information, at best.

Secondly, the exact quote was "トランクスに切り裂かれた合体ザマスだったが、その念は空へと舞い上がり地球全体を包み込んだ", which can be translated, roughly, into "The combined Zamasu was cut open by Trunks, but his thoughts soared into the sky and enveloped the entire earth". How this text was interpreted as "Zamasu transformed into a concept" is completely bogus, taking into account the fact that the definition of word "念" is "sense; idea; thought; feeling", which fits the narrative's of Zamasu's twisted will taking an ethereal form—which is described as a 気の奔流/"torrent of energy" by the official episode summary on Toei's website—after his physical body was destroyed, and the meaning of the kanji is "wish, sense, idea, thought, feeling, desire, attention".

Zamasu is not literally abandoning his body to become an abstract existence, nor did he become one with the abstract concept of justice and order; his remaining immortal will took flight after his body was destroyed.
 
I love how the Wiki accepts Fu's remarks about "ideals" and "justice" being "too abstract" as proof that justice is literally an abstract concept, when, in the next ******* sentence, he comments about only wanting to experiment and "[extract] hard data".

"Abstract", in this context, just means "I can't touch an ideal, and I can't play around with a justice like I can with a timeline."
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
Don't notice, it's only with DB that this happens, where other verses can have their conceptual characters and DB doesn't, because it's a famous work, until a while ago there were people saying that it's hyperbole, being that they accepted for less characters to be concepts
Click to expand...
There are alot of verses and infact common thing here on vsbw that you won't get conceptual manipulation just by or even by mentioning concept unless it's nature has been explained by some means in the verse. When I said common I mean literally common. DB is the only exception for having it in the profile even when the kanji mean concept or not seems to be more open for other interpretations than for concept.
 
Okay...it seems the description in Artbook and Website seems to be different, so which information source should we prioritize? Both are from Toei
 
Y'know, I just had an epiphany.

According to the page for Abstract Existence...
Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.
Click to expand...
There is zero evidence proving that embodying the "concept of justice" grants Zamasu any form of Immortality and Regeneration, nor control over the concept itself.
 
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