Yoshikage Kira vs. Phil Connors

[Dargoo_Faust]

I swear, Phil might actually have chances at taking this.

Kosaku Kawajiri Kira w/Bites the Dust and all the works, yada yada. Speed is Equalized. Battle takes place in Punxsutawney on Groundhog Day, during Phil's time loop.

Yoshikage Kira - 2 (Dragon, Hierophant)

Phil Connors - 3 (Keeweed, Jacky, Aresnal)

Incon -

 

[TriforcePower1]

Let's get the obvious out of this, BtD is absolutely useless in direct combat. I'll wait for arguments.

 

[Eficiente]

Bill Murray takes this via dying over and over and over again and then throwing a steamroller from an airplane into Kira or something.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Kira would surprisingly catch on pretty quickly, he knew how many times BtD had activated based on Hayato's actions and expressions, very smart. I think he'd have something similar here.

Eventually it's just Kira either torturing or interrogating Connors about his ability, asking him how it works and why he's targeting Kira. Connors doesn't look very hardened so he'd probably tell him after getting his fingers snapped or whatever.

From there it's just another simple deduction, "I can't kill you or the day resets huh? Well then, go to sleep for now as I figure this out." and he knocks him out with KQ. SBA dictates that an hour of incap is enough for a win, so an hour later Kira will technically "win" although he wouldn't really figure out how to get out of the time loop, at least not right away.

So Kira FRA based on technicalities.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Kira fra

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kira would surprisingly catch on pretty quickly, he knew how many times BtD had activated based on Hayato's actions and expressions, very smart. I think he'd have something similar here.

That wouldn't really apply here, though. Kira could only make deductions on Bites the Dust because he already knew what it did and had actively placed it on Hayato, he isn't aware of Connors being trapped in a time loop, nor does he have the capacity to retain his memory in the loop.

Eventually it's just Kira either torturing or interrogating Connors about his ability, asking him how it works and why he's targeting Kira. Connors doesn't look very hardened so he'd probably tell him after getting his fingers snapped or whatever.

I'm pretty sure Kira's first move would be detonating Phil with his invisible punching ghost, not capturing and torturing him, which isn't exactly in-character for Kira in the first place. The moment Phil realizes that Kira can explode him on demand, he will probably switch to less direct strategies of taking Kira out, such as poisoning him and following him around. Keep in mind Phil can precog whatever actions Kira would take through repeated loops, while Kira wouldn't retain any memories of the loop.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I mean, this is Kira. He wants to live a quiet life. The first thing he did before killing Shigechi was asking him about his friends and etc., after finding out they had stands too. He wanted to know, so he could avoid them better. It's a similar situation here with Kosaku Kira. This Kira has managed to escape successfully, yet now he's fighting this random person. Interrogating them makes sense when there's no reason he would be fighting anyone at this point from his perspective.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, but Kira didn't capture and torture Shigechi for more info (heck, Kira's confidence had him ignoring Josuke and co. entirely), his first move was surprising and exploding Shigechi after that, which in Phil's case would induce a time loop.

And Kira isn't aware of the time loop, nor would he think Phil has a stand of any sort. Kira would just be thinking some random regular guy wants to punch him in the face.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

something something Kira has suddenly appeared in a random place he doesn't know something something this is the work of an enemy stand

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kira wouldn't have any memories of the loop once he kills Phil, though. I don't even think he kept his memories from the Bites the Dust loops, he just kept a close eye on Hayato.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

He just deducted the amount of times time was looped from seeing Hayato's face/actions. Like when Hayato knew that the tea cup was going to fall and caught it, Kira noticed. So if Phil tries doing that "I know this will happen so I'll do this", Kira will see that and catch on.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I mean, Kira was already aware he placed Bites the Dust on Hayato prior to the loop happening, although you have a point.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Yeah, but Kira already knows how varied stands can be. He knows about Jotaro who can stop time, and etc. So another stand that could potentially replicate his Bites the Dust is a possibility. Someone being able to react to things in a way that looks like they knew they were going to happen before they did would be recognizable to someone who's been able to notice such things before and with accuracy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And Kira tends to be overly paranoid to begin with, especially if he's in a fight with someone, and has had experience with people using timeloops to predict actions (Hayato).

Yeah, I can see your argument now. IDK if Kira would resort to knocking Phil out, though.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Maybe, depends on how the fight goes and what Kira notices or does in response. He might realize how the loop is initiated.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

@Dargoo I disagree, I think Kira is paranoid and intelligent enough to realize that Connors has tried to kill him before, especially if Connors does it enough to the point where he can predict 1 or 2 of Kira's respones. He'd be like, "It's almost as if he knew I was going to do that...?"

And obviously he would blow him up in general, but if Kira knows that he's predicting his movements with 100% accuracy somehow he'd likely want to know how. He did question Shingenchi and got his answers, he threatened Hayato with murdering his mother if he didn't comply, etc etc, I don't think torturing Connors is out of the question.

I just don't see Connors somehow killing Kira before he does enough resets and actions to warrant Kira recognizing he's weird and torturing him by blowing up his finger or something for more information. And he would only resort to knocking out Connors once he tortures him and learns that if he does kill him, the day would reset.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

KOing Phil just lets Kira win by technicality due to how SBA is structured; it doesn't actually stop the loop from going off at 6AM the next day.

Phil could master opportune moments for stealth over resets and I doubt he'd continue trying to directly confront Kira after being blown up once or twice.

Meaning Phil would have to resort to something like poison, although that would take a good number of loops to pull off given how perceptive Kira is.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Yeah it won't actually stop the loop but Kira still wins.

I don't think Connors can ever assasinate Kira, KQ seems too powerful and useful. I mean, it's possible to assassinate him obviously, is it just something Connors can come up with and has the resources to do? I doubt it.

Poison is a good option, but I don't know how he'd actually do it. Kira would refuse any food and immediately be suspicious, and it's not like you can just get cyanide from the department store.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Phil basically has all the time in the world to pull off something. He could train in charismatic persuasion and analyze Kira's routines and characters for years if necessary. He could study basic chemistry for a couple of months and concoct a toxin with convinience store items like cleaning chemicals.

So this mostly depends on how likely Kira is to try KOing Phil, as if he just kills Phil, I'd imagine Phil would start avoiding any form of direct confrontation.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Yeah I agree with you that he can potentially win, I just think Kira KO's before he does.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I disagree as I don't remember Kira KOing people much in Part 4, so I think it's unlikely, but I respect your reasoning and can see Kira doing it sometimes, just not enough IMO.

Kira - 2 (Hierophant, Dragon)

 

[TriforcePower1]

Kira never KOed anyone in Part 4 because it was always way more efficient to blow them up.

 

[HierophantDeluxe]

Thank you Kanye, very cool!

We know, I was just pointing out that Kira could potentially KO him if he realizes that killing Connors would only cause the day to reset.

 

[Eficiente]

I really don't see Kira noticing Connors' time loop by himself, but Connors himself may ask him stuff like "how could you do x thing", which would logically warn Kira.

I remove my vote.

 

[Genericstickman]

So what is Phil's wincon here?

 

[TriforcePower1]

So what is Phil's wincon here?

just reverting time so many times he eventually finds a way to kill Kira. Which is made particularly hard by the fact that stands protect the user.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Nothing in Phil's P&A section implies that he has what it takes to beat Kira (Unless one of his attempts involves ramming Kira backwards with an ambulance while he's lying on the ground). It could be inconclusive at best. Or Kira wins unintentionally on technicalities.

 

[Genericstickman]

Phil just punches Kira really hard and wins

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Phil just punches Kira really hard and wins

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Nothing in Phil's P&A section implies that he has what it takes to beat Kira (Unless one of his attempts involves ramming Kira backwards with an ambulance while he's lying on the ground). It could be inconclusive at best. Or Kira wins unintentionally on technicalities.

Phil's gig is being a completly normal person with an unlimited amount of time to do something.

So even if he doesn't know how to sneak around Kira and concoct poisons or gases that could kill him, he could dedicate months or years to learning how to do them, and considering Phil can precog Kira's actions with that as well, dropping a canister of toxic gas made from convinience store items at the right time would do the trick.

So Kira would have to win by tecnicaility within the first number of loops where Phil is still pretty unexperienced and will likely get nuked by Killer Queen a lot.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I feel like it would go something like

1st Loop: Kira nukes random dude by throwing a penny or rock

2nd Loop: Kira notices the dude avoid the rock with extreme caution/fear and is confused as to why he would, questions starto

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well, the first loop would cause Phil to respawn earlier than the beginning of the battle, meaning at that point he could start avoiding and trying to analyze Kira.

Sure, Kira being who he is means Phil is more than likely to get exploded by the invisible punching ghost dozens of times, though, and Kira would likely start questioning someone who's sneaking around and spying on him.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Right.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Actually, if Kira suspects that Phil can go back in time, he would try to place BtD on him, which would remain within Phil because Acausality type 1. In the next loop, he sees that he doesn't have Killer quenn, summons it back and discovers that it came from Phil, he does 2+2 and realizes Phil can revert time.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Phil's acausality is only in regards to his memory, though.

Unless Bites za Dusto is placed within someone's mind in which case nvm.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I was referring to BtD having Acausality, but that's true as well.

I think BtD kind of works by basically becoming the target's stand (similarly to Cheap Trick), so it should be able to be carried to the past regardless.

 

[Keeweed]

I feel like this is a stomp no matter what, either Kira notices the time loop and stomps Phil into the ground or he eventually gets poisoned by someone with an infinite number of tries to do so. Also I doubt Phil's going to act in a way that gives away that he can time travel. He mostly likely won't get anywhere close to Kira rather than try to matrix dodge him with constant retries. How many time lines would it even take to poison Kira. Explodes first time line, then the rest of the time lines are either going to be shooting at Kira with gun or poisoning him. Kira getting randomly poisoned doesn't tell him about time loops so Phil just gets blown up, and getting randomly shot would probably send Kira away from the possibility of a stand because why would a stand user try to shot him with a regular gun. Also Phil's guns failing to do damage to Kira will probably lead to things like Poison way faster.

Real Quick how does Phil being able to loop time make Kira think to go for knock out. None of the stands he fought work upon death, so won't he assume the ability is activated not automatic?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Because if Phil can time loop after getting blown up, that means he can time loop after death.

 

[Keeweed]

But how would Kira know that time looped in the first place? (Actually real quick in the rest room, I need to read your thing again)

 

[Keeweed]

How would he know he blew Phil up? (That's probably a better response to what you said)