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Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

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Look, I I never even mentioned limited plot manipulation. I know that it can be annoying to talk to two people at the same time and I am sorry about that for you as I have experienced it before but you can’t be asking me to prove limited plot manipulation exists when I never even mentioned “limited plot manipulation” in my posts.

Honestly? I’ll just make a general thread asking about it instead of Instant Death revision because no one of interest besides randoms that are curious to skim or downgrade Yogiri will pop in.

If I strawman you it was an accidental occurrence due to miscommunication, I really try to be as straightforward and civil as possible because I couldn’t care less about debating. Now, I will ask about plot manipulation and it’s minimum capabilities/requirements and I hope not to mistranslate what you mean.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Look, I I never even mentioned limited plot manipulation. I know that it can be annoying to talk to two people at the same time and I am sorry about that for you as I have experienced it before but you can’t be asking me to prove limited plot manipulation exists when I never even mentioned “limited plot manipulation” in my posts.

Honestly? I’ll just make a general thread asking about it instead of Instant Death revision because no one of interest besides randoms that are curious to skim or downgrade Yogiri will pop in.

If I strawman you it was an accidental occurrence due to miscommunication, I really try to be as straightforward and civil as possible because I couldn’t care less about debating. Now, I will ask about plot manipulation and it’s minimum capabilities/requirements and I hope not to mistranslate what you mean.
Click to expand...
Thanks for confirming your point, because I was confused. For an ability to be classified as "Plot Manipulation" it will require a "Meta-Fiction" scale that views "all reality" as literal fiction that can be controlled, and this falls to the fundamental stage that composes it all. Like the quote I took above. They are completely devoid of metaphors for seeing the world as that fictitious inferior layer. Since those who are certain see their own reality as fiction, there is logically nothing to hold them back, and they have no limitations internally on the fictions they manage. If an ability like that had a limit, then there had to be a more powerful ability, not one that came from the Reality he controlled. Aoi's case here is the opposite of that, in that she can be injured and has a hard time dealing with the Reptile Dragon who is in the same conventional reality as her.
 
Till now, I have no clue why I need to prove your nonexistent standards to not exist? This is Proving Non-Existence Fallacy.
The page itself mentioned, it can be limited in application.

You can't create a new standard to downgrade a hax from a character? I don't even need to prove there are limited or not, since the page already mentioned.
Even CM 2 has limitations. Even authority manipulation has limitations.

Create staff discussion if you want to add it, if you think it is for you, logical. But currently we stick to our standards that are mentioned in the page.
 
I have no bussiness to do a circularity fallacy. Your opinion right now doesn't prove anything about your claims. And too be honest, I'd answer staffs question next time since I won't be able to make sure you in the agreement.
 
Bro did a proving nonexistence fallacy and refused to do admit it. I am done.

Ya, you can't make me in agreement because you created own standard due to how you understand the plot manipulation. The standard does not exist.
 
I am trying to write up the post about this but it is hard to try to convey what you mean as a secondary person without misinterpreting you. Suckz. I’ll ask Ant who I can ask to give input in here or something I guess, I just don’t want it to come across as strawmanning you.

The last two things you mentioned tho.
Her plot manipulation doesn’t revolve about being uninjured so how does that disprove it? It’s based around surviving. & the dragon can’t be affected because her ability doesn’t properly activate against it, not because her ability is unable to affect the dragon once activated.
 
“My opinion does not prove anything” ~ yet, you nitpick the whole thing. You never proved anything except creating a new standard to back up your argument. That's it. The dragon can't be affected because her ability doesn't properly activation against it, not because she can't affect it once activated.
 
Also. Machinations of destiny are meta-fictional in the fujikata verse. This is beyond the worldview-holders, this is an Outer speaking and is confirmed by the fact that one of the antagonists whole shtick is being the absolute protagonist of the story he is in and a such kicked out the worldview protagonist out of their story and became the new protagonist instead.



Note that literally everyone is confirmed to hold a worldview and it’s how the world collectively creates a coherent existence. Worldview Users are simply some characters are that are capable of imposing their own in a significant way with bigger differences than the average. It was in Yuichi’s page but for some reason some of his scans got deleted? I’ll try to find it. But basically it’s not a question of if Aoi has a worldview but if she is capable of using it to impose her cognition of the world (which surprise surprise, she does with balance of powe)
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Prove it the standard does not exist.

"Plot Manipulation is the ability to control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself."

Wiki has explained that description as the ability to see reality that defines and indeed forms what the world is as an aspect that is seen as fictional, if we are beings who control it then it is certain that beings contained in that reality cannot interact and do anything -what to us, because we determine their fate and setting, because we see them as fiction. This is the most important aspect, and it is certain that this part of reality will not be scratched (2). As for Aoi? he can still be injured and will need to use brute-force strategies against him. Based on the explanation of Aoi's ability, her ability is limited and only leads to the "destiny" she sees ( ), the meaning of meta story in these scans ( ) <- does not mean that Aoi controls one's destiny to a fundamental level, but only sees destiny as a metaphor like a movie script. Meta story can mean "a story within a story" and the destiny Aoi sees is a small destiny of the big destiny she sees (the meaning of small destiny here is that she only sees the part of the script that benefits her).
Balance of Power ≠ Plot of Destiny. Here Aoi's ability used to change events is "Balance of Power" and this is more like Subjective Reality with Fate Manipulation, according to Aoi's ability. Scans for Balance of Power: ( )
Click to expand...

The scans look more like fate manipulation.
 
PhantomØ4 said:
Also. Machinations of destiny are meta-fictional in the fujikata verse. This is beyond the worldview-holders, this is an Outer speaking and is confirmed by the fact that one of the antagonists whole shtick is being the absolute protagonist of the story he is in and a such kicked out the worldview protagonist out of their story and became the new protagonist instead.



Note that literally everyone is confirmed to hold a worldview and it’s how the world collectively creates a coherent existence. Worldview Users are simply some characters are that are capable of imposing their own in a significant way with bigger differences than the average. It was in Yuichi’s page but for some reason some of his scans got deleted? I’ll try to find it. But basically it’s not a question of if Aoi has a worldview but if she is capable of using it to impose her cognition of the world (which surprise surprise, she does with balance of powe)
Click to expand...

1. Aoi is not a person that holds World-View Holders. World-View Holders definitely different than Sage's power. They have mechanism to manipulates only by the scale of their own world reinforces. And, it's not even give us a fundamental aspects, but the power to twist fate.
2. The explanation you put out right now has absolutely no coherence and is just taking interpretation as far as you want, you brought in 2 descriptions from Volume 4 and Volume 6 of Neecham Chuunibyou which are less correlated, and those two parts have no meaning as they perceive our plot, because in Volume 4 which discusses the "Outer" scale because they exist outside of "destiny" so they cannot be labeled and categorized. Full description and incident here. Instead, she only explained the advantages of being an Outer that couldn't be categorized and regardless of age or immortality. The existence of those who exist outside of the story, it's just a synonym of saying "they have no destiny". There is no connotation at all towards Plot Manipulation, even if you look at the following pages, World-View Holders are explained to be limited to manipulating their parts depending on the world they form, if it is set like the Romance world, then the user is only limited in manipulating affection.
3. The meaning of everyone who wholds World-View Holders in question does not mean to everyone, but to explain the comparison between Outers and all normal World-View Holders. I have checked and read Volume 6 for that, and in point 1 I find it very blantant that their ability is more towards twisting fates than controlling fundamental aspects to a fictional stage. You can't fool me man.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Short Summary:
She then explains, even with her ability, she can't erase the reptile beast that she fought because the size of it's head and it's brute force is stronger than her. It's far from Plot Manipulation, and clearly would lead to a very limited ability of fate categorism.
Click to expand...
Fr tho. The current standard to get a Plot Manipulation is the plot should be understood as fundamental aspect from reality, which is the user would see the reality as a fiction.

So, if Aoi's ability literally a Plot Manipulation, Aoi still can erase the monster, even the monster is stronger than her, because Plot Manipulation's user should see the reality as a fiction, and the monster still in the same reality that Aoi see as fiction.

But the given feat didn't say that, and make Aoi's ability are more weaker than how Plot Manipulation should work. That would make Aoi's ability is more leaning to Fate Manipulation than Plot Manipulation.
 
That's not actually true. You can have 4-D plot manip and still be 3-D. Plus, the user isn't always limitless with it. The uses varies from verse to verse.

For example, Taurus has a very localized plot erasure. He doesn't erase the entire reality and he himself is 3-D. And Akari simply just erases herself with it.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That's not actually true. You can have 4-D plot manip and still be 3-D. Plus, the user isn't always limitless with it. The uses varies from verse to verse.

For example, Taurus has a very localized plot erasure. He doesn't erase the entire reality and he himself is 3-D. And Akari simply just erases herself with it.
Click to expand...
The different parts, here they have no meta-fictional scales. And like I said above, having a plot hax won't guarantee to indicates a bigger cardinality in their fiction, so like you say, it can be only related to the own range of it's hax.
 
I skimmed the thread so sorry if I got it wrong. But do you guys really... favoring more into MTL over the official translations? Do you know... how ******* ridiculous is this? Don't you remember the very reason why verses like Shinza and Mondaiji were destroyed? I wouldn't even surprised if MGKF gets the same treatment as it seems following the same principle, MTL, MTL, and MTL.

So yeah I agree with the nuke.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
The different parts, here they have no meta-fictional scales. And like I said above, having a plot hax won't guarantee to indicates a bigger cardinality in their fiction, so like you say, it can be only related to the own range of it's hax.
Click to expand...
Yes, but you said
She then explains, even with her ability, she can't erase the reptile beast that she fought because the size of it's head and it's brute force is stronger than her. It's far from Plot Manipulation, and clearly would lead to a very limited ability of fate categorism.
Click to expand...
This is not an antifeat. It simply means she isn't versatile or powerful enough to allow her to do that. We don't assume powers in fiction works at X scale by default, they each come with different limitations that the verse presents. The two characters I linked above are also examples of this. Just because they don't control all of reality or whatever through plot manip doesn't mean they don't get plot manip.

And what I said is also a response to you (or someone) claiming that the user needs to see reality as literal fiction to be plot manip, which is evidently not true.
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
I skimmed the thread so sorry if I got it wrong. But do you guys really... favoring more into MTL over the official translations? Do you know... how ******* ridiculous is this? Don't you remember the very reason why verses like Shinza and Mondaiji were destroyed? I wouldn't even surprised if MGKF gets the same treatment as it seems following the same principle, MTL, MTL, and MTL.

So yeah I agree with the nuke.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the input. Looking at how the person of tier 1 experts come here, must be really in favour.
 
Idk if this has been brought up yet or not, but the “fate and script” shennanigan, it’s just a metaphor.

IMG_8104.jpg


「まあ、メタと言えばメタな話だよ。ボクは運命を俯瞰(ふかん)することができる。つまりこの世界が映画だとするなら、その台本を覗き 見ることができるってわけだ」
Click to expand...

(ふかん) the upper small text (Furigana) translates to over looking, looking down at, etc.

Credits to my friend from facebook (@ChlammyMafahl).
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Yes, but you said

This is not an antifeat. It simply means she isn't versatile or powerful enough to allow her to do that. We don't assume powers in fiction works at X scale by default, they each come with different limitations that the verse presents. The two characters I linked above are also examples of this. Just because they don't control all of reality or whatever through plot manip doesn't mean they don't get plot manip.

And what I said is also a response to you (or someone) claiming that the user needs to see reality as literal fiction to be plot manip, which is evidently not true.
Click to expand...
Simply put, there is no indication that she sees the world as fictional, other than the sentence "meta-story" which is a metaphor. And we can't take that literally. My friend above has explained it. Plus all the official translations mention the word "if" including the raw one, indicating that the Plot aspect doesn't exist at all and doesn't match our standards. It's more to Fate Manip, since Aoi's Power of Balance ability is said to be able to manipulate destiny. It was enough to change her Plot Manip rating to Fate Manip.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
And what I said is also a response to you (or someone) claiming that the user needs to see reality as literal fiction to be plot manip, which is evidently not true.
Click to expand...
Bruh, the current standard obviously said that the user need to see the reality as a fiction. There's no indication that Aoi sees the world as a fiction. She can't even erase the monster, who in the same reality that she see as fiction (if its true, but there's no indication about that), just because the difference in power terms. That would be a contradiction to a how Plot Manipulation should work. If you can prove that the monster is in higher reality, than that would make senses. But the given feat didn't say that, so that's not a Plot Manipulation.
 
FlugelAlcor said:
Bruh, the current standard obviously said that the user need to see the reality as a fiction. There's no indication that Aoi sees the world as a fiction. She can't even erase the monster, who in the same reality that she see as fiction (if its true, but there's no indication about that), just because the difference in power terms. That would be a contradiction to a how Plot Manipulation should work. If you can prove that the monster is in higher reality, than that would make senses. But the given feat didn't say that, so that's not a Plot Manipulation.
Click to expand...
That's not how plot manipulation works on this site. I've already explained why it wouldn't be an antifeat and why the character doesn't inherently need to see a reality as fictional from their pov. In fact, I've already linked two profiles and can link many others that support what I'm saying, so you really shouldn't go "the current standard is obviously this!" in this case.
 
I completely fail to see how she can't deny the existence of the dragon contradicting to having plot hax honestly, since when plot manip is an all-powerful ability that can do everything without limitation? It's just a normal ability like any others in the wiki, and if she can't defeat the dragon, it just means her plot manip has restrictions and I don't mind if it gets changed to limited plot manip, but saying that only fate hax having limitations is flat-out wrong.
 
If we bring up the standard, the standard also says this:

Furthermore, regarding No-Limits Fallacies: Users can not simply be assumed to bring out any imaginable effect. They are assumed to be limited in both applications and scale to what they demonstrated or can be reasoned to be capable based on reliable statements.
Click to expand...
You guys really try to assume just because you can use plot manipulation make you suddenly all power and can anything ability.
 
Delta333 said:
I completely fail to see how she can't deny the existence of the dragon contradicting to having plot hax honestly, since when plot manip is an all-powerful ability that can do everything without limitation? It's just a normal ability like any others in the wiki, and if she can't defeat the dragon, it just means her plot manip has restrictions and I don't mind if it gets changed to limited plot manip, but saying that only fate hax having limitations is flat-out wrong.
Click to expand...
1. The Power of Balance that mades Aoi able to manipulates the world around her specifically said she can manipulates destiny, and the destiny she manipulates limited by the fate value of individual's value. It never stated or shows us the metafictional aspects, the meta-story and script thing is a metaphor. Just like how I explained this again and again, and the raw scans also say so. It's just a metaphor of Aoi's precognition, nothing else.
2. Plot Manipulation should be able manipulates fundamental thing easly not being hold-back by the reality that she controls. I have explain this again and again.
 
C'mon guys, bring more evidences rather than doing twisted debates again and again. Ignoring official translations, reasoning behind metaphor, and everything that sounds streteched just because it holds no agreement to your interpretation. Anyway since the guys (almost 18 persons) agree, I'll just wait a staff to evaluate this. Because debating with a same topic again and again by the oppositions bring no evidences, just a bunch of rethorical questions would be pointless.
 
And why the disagree tally is not updated? I'm pretty sure most of the supporter disagree on the premise of this thread.
Most that agree are people not knowledgeable on the verse, and mostly doing "Agree FRA" acts.
 
What’s up with their opinions (Agree, Agree FRA, etc) though? They have as much right to the agree tally as you guys to the disagree tally.

And though i agree that @EinelRendezvous should add the people who disagree to the disagree tally.

Edit: The first paragraph of my reply.
 
WanderingGecko said:
Why are you disproving their opinions (Agree, Agree FRA, etc) though? They have as much right to the agree tally as you guys to the disagree tally.

And though i agree that @EinelRendezvous should add the people who disagree to the disagree tally.
Click to expand...
I'm not disapproving their opinion.
I'm just saying that the agree vote that are only "Agree FRA" are noted on the OP, yet the disagree vote by the supporter are not noted.
 
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