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Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

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EinelRendezvous said:
Plot Manipulation should be able manipulates fundamental thing easly not being hold-back by the reality that she controls. I have explain this again and again.
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And I've explained why this isn't a thing inherently. You really shouldn't use that reason to disprove plot manip.

Also, the quantity of blue names agreeing with a thread ultimately doesn't get a thread to pass, even if it's 100 of them. You should call Elizhaa here.
 
Updated for disagree list. I've posted this on Elizhaa's profile and ask to evaluate the thread. Also, you guys ignoring the raw and the official scans where it's literally use 'if' and that's a metaphorical sense.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
Updated for disagree list. I've posted this on Elizhaa's profile and ask to evaluate the thread. Also, you guys ignoring the raw and the official scans where it's literally use 'if' and that's a metaphorical sense.
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I'm not ignoring anything. I literally don't care about that. I'm only disputing the objectively wrong reasons you and the other person are using to disprove plot manip.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That's not how plot manipulation works on this site. I've already explained why it wouldn't be an antifeat and why the character doesn't inherently need to see a reality as fictional from their pov. In fact, I've already linked two profiles and can link many others that support what I'm saying, so you really shouldn't go "the current standard is obviously this!" in this case.
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Oh, you talk about Taurus and Akari?

For Taurus, yeah I know that he got a Plot Manipulation from shattering the God's script, but the God's script is literally treats the reality as a fiction. So, even Taurus didn't see the reality as a fiction, he's ability can shatter the God's script, whose treats the reality as a fiction.

For Akari, she can erase herself from the script right (even if only for a while)? Just like an author removing his character from his script. How the script works in here should be same as Taurus' case (treats the reality as a fiction). So, that would make she can altering something that treats the reality as a fiction, even though she didn't see the reality as a fiction.

In Aoi's case, which part that made her can alter something that treats the reality as a fiction? From what I see, her ability only can alter the fate, and fate doesn't treats the reality as a fiction. Fate just guiding how someone's life would work.
 
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Don't know the verse but I will comment on one thing, merely having limits to your power does not debunk the ability itself, claiming it can do anything and everything is a NLF so that shouldn't be an argument to remove the ability. Everything else I don't care for.
 
op already says that aoi abilities limited to higher value fate which is contradicted with plot manipulate itself since plot manip user treated reality as narrative thing pretty sure that abilites that aoi use doesnt work on meta-fiction thing hence its only work on lesser value than her, which is why abilities should changed to fate manip

Agree with op
 
The evidence has been brought by the op wdym "no brought an evidence of such standard" The fact that aoi only can uses those abilities on lesser fate value is stricly says that she cant do anything for higher fate value on surrounding her which is why those abilities doesnt have meta-fiction elements or a words for (meta-fiction) on the feats is metaphor i guess
 
Dread said:
People unironically declining the ability because it is "limited" but no brought an evidence of such standard. That's ridiculous.
I can't comment much since I now have Skin rash and heading to hospital but will comment soon (once I have less pain)
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My thing here isn't about the power being limited, just the scans themselves aren't describing the powers as anything but fate manipulation. Any reference towards plot in describing these powers reads as a comparison/metaphor so all that's really being described is fate manipulation.

That's why I'm saying that the OP is fine.
 
Duedate8898 said:
My thing here isn't about the power being limited, just the scans themselves aren't describing the powers as anything but fate manipulation. Any reference towards plot in describing these powers reads as a comparison/metaphor so all that's really being described is fate manipulation.

That's why I'm saying that the OP is fine.
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This is literally his whole second argument, otherwise there is no evidences of being metaphor whatsoever. The fact that there are metaficional elements and one of scans explicitly separated the term plot with fate is still evidence for plot manipulation. His whole argument for it is "Plot manipulation can't be limited, for plot manipulation you need reality fiction transcendence). And all this does not exist in standards as @Theglassman12 and @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said.

Whatever I am soon heading outside and I did not sleep for having pain. I hope the thread is not closed. Otherwise this is literally unfair using standards that does not exist as argument for refuting someone.
 
The fact that the powers themselves explicitly mention fate and not plot is what goes against these abilities being the manipulation of plot. She views fate as a script, he controls the future through a book but there is no mention of plot in his manipulating the future.

The scans in the OP very much point towards these abilities being based in fate and nothing to do with a plot.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Don't know the verse but I will comment on one thing, merely having limits to your power does not debunk the ability itself, claiming it can do anything and everything is a NLF so that shouldn't be an argument to remove the ability. Everything else I don't care for.
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That's right. I explain it earlier about mentioning everything have an NLF. But for Aoi's case, it has a metaphorical description. That's why I chose to remove it.
 
I'm pretty sure this has already been discussed many times before.

Like, how do you know the explanation/comparison is metaphorical and not meant to be taken literally? This verse almost never does ability metaphors (Can't think of a time where it does tbh), the whole point is that these are powerful abilities with their given explanations meant to be taken very literally.

Even's Aoi's "Limitation" is just a limitation on her Worldview, if she could rationalize denying things out of existence with her power, then she could. That's how she made it so that a dragon with wings can't fly, she denied the reality of it flying, even though she literally was looking at it flying.

We're also nitpicking scans and phrases here. Aoi in the novel and manga doesn't just say she can view fate like it's a script, she describes fate as a script.
I'll quote myself.
Well; Earl the example given was the death of Oda Nobunaga when it comes to killing high destiny value existences. And he was technically never killed. He was betrayed by a comrade who staged a coup for fairly unknown reasons, cornered him in a temple and Oda committed seppuku while his attendants set the temple aflame and burned themselves alive to keep the traitor from getting Oda's remains.

That's the kind of scenario needed to kill an existence with high destiny value. Aoi flat out states that trying to shoot or stab them won't kill them.
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You're misunderstanding, I wasn't talking about that quote, I was referencing the Oda Nobunaga one. She said he didn't die when shot by Sugitani Zenjubo because of his nature as a high destiny value existence. And Sugitani was a sniper who tried to assassinate him. Aoi says you have to use fate itself to bypass this protection; in other words, you must create a dramatic scenario/storyline where their death is a satisfying climax. As she said ""Fate prefers situations that look more interesting. So, you must make a scenario where it looks more interesting to die."
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It was agreed a while ago that because fate acts like plot manipulation, and is described as plot manipulation, then it's plot manipulation.
 
Oh, you the guy who upgrade Aoi to have World-View Holders just because The Power of Balance holds a same ability to control the world around it's user. While in-fact, speaking about continuity it's different because Aoi holds the power of Sage. The explanation from Aoi above clearly emphasizes that the destiny of each individual has a value, so individuals who have a high "destiny" value will be freed from just normal death, because "fate" will not allow them to die, as was the case with Nobunaga Oda. Plus, the description that always mentions Destiny/Fate Value is enough to explain that it belongs to Fate Manipulation, it doesn't act as a fundamental meta-fictional aspect, but a general condition where in general high "destiny" values will have advantages and privileges certain.

"Note that plot manipulation should not be listed just because a power is compared to a trope or otherwise metafiction is used as a metaphor. For instance, a character that is lucky or fated to win like the protagonist of a story would only get this power if that is done by altering the plot. Otherwise it would simply be Supernatural Luck or Fate Manipulation."

The High Fate-Value thing is enough to determine things only as Fate Manipulation. It always reffers to Fate, rather than Plot. So telling me Fate acts like Plot is a iffy.

Aoi says you have to use fate itself to bypass this protection; in other words, you must create a dramatic scenario/storyline where their death is a satisfying climax. As she said "Fate prefers situations that look more interesting. So, you must make a scenario where it looks more interesting to die."
Click to expand...

Bro, Fate Manipulation description and how Aoi explains about Fate will protects you is enough to put them having a passive limited Fate Manipulation.
 
EinelRendezvous said:
The High Fate-Value thing is enough to determine things only as Fate Manipulation. It always reffers to Fate, rather than Plot. So telling me Fate acts like Plot is a iffy.
Click to expand...
I'm arguing here that fate in the verse acts as the plot, they're not mutually exclusive, and that the plot statements aren't metaphors.
 
You're also completely taking the Neechan Wa Chunnibyou statements out of the equation which is a large part of what led us to our conclusions.

"This is all just what I was told, so I don’t know all the details, but the point is, every person has their own world,” Tomomi said. “And while every person has their own world, the broad outlines are predetermined, and there are central figures who are like the personification of a given worldview. Those people are called Worldview Holders.”
“And they decide the rules of the world?” Yuichi asked. It all sounded pretty absurd to Yuichi. People like that would basically be called gods.
“They aren’t necessarily doing it consciously,” Tomomi said. “But the worldviews of the people around the Holder are strongly influenced by the Holder’s own. As a result, the world around a Holder will cohere into one the Holder recognizes. Of course, there are a lot of Holders out there, which means you sometimes wind up with conflicting worldviews coming into contact. When that happens, it’s called a World Conflict, and the weaker world is integrated into the stronger one.”
Click to expand...
"Well, just speaking of a meta-story, makes it a meta-story" (Aoi)

Or rather, if this world was like a movie, then you could say that I can peek at the script" (Aoi)

“But still, its not that simple. I guess I should say there are several protagonists, and chaotic matters like various scenarios that are moving simultaneously. And the different scenarios can change aspects in complex manners depending on the situation.” (Aoi)
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According to NWC, everyone has their own world and people who can influence the worlds of others with theirs are worldview holders.

Hmm... this sounds familiar.

https://cdn.**********.com/manga_5ff03da8bdc7a/2d5028bd31564c1b7c922f7c7775b261/4.jpg
"The ability to involve others in my world"
:unsure:

Edit:
Now if you want to argue why WV holders aren't plot manipulators, I suggest hitting up Celestial Pegasus.
 
According to NWC, everyone has their own world and people who can influence the worlds of others with theirs are worldview holders.
Click to expand...

It's because Aoi using Power of Balance which manipulates the destiny. She's not a user of World-View Holders. The meaning of everyone who wholds World- View Holders in question does not mean to everyone, but to explain the comparison between Outers and all normal World-View Holders. I have checked and read Volume 6 for that, and in point 1 find it very blantant that their ability is more towards twisting fates than controlling fundamental aspects to a fictional stage. Saying everyone has that by ignoring the real context is a hasty generalization fallacy.

The explanation you put out right now has absolutely no coherence and is just taking interpretation as far as you want, because to explain and saying Aoi has and being a World-View holders based on the 2 descriptions from Volume 4 and Volume 6 of Neechan Chuunibyou which are less correlated, and those two parts have no meaning as they perceive our plot, because in Volume 4 which discusses the "Outer" scale because they exist outside of "destiny" so they cannot be labeled and categorized. Full description and incident here. Instead, she only explained the advantages of being an Outer that couldn't be categorized and regardless of age or immortality. The existence of those who exist outside of the story, it's just a synonym of saying "they have no destiny". There is no connotation at all towards Plot Manipulation, even if you look at the following pages, World-View Holders are explained to be limited to manipulating their parts depending on theo world they form, if it is set like the Romance World, then the user is only limited ina mnipulating affection.

Now if you want to argue why WV holders aren't plot manipulators, I suggest hitting up Celestial Pegasus.
Click to expand...

My focus is Aoi doesn't hold the WV holders, rather her ability is from her sage powers.

Also the official translations of that meta-mentioning parts is called "movie metaphorical" by the official translations. So we can't take her explanation as literal, nor do you can judge Fate as a literal plot that follow our standards. That's so wrong.
 
So WV holders aren’t plot manipulators and it’s all metaphors?

What exactly are you saying our standards are for plot manipulation? Like, what do you think plot manipulation is?

Edit:

A character like Altair literally has both Fate and plot manipulation from the same feats and statements as fate is treated as the plot in that verse as well.
 
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1. Since Aoi is not a user of WVH then there's no reason to scale her over the description that Neechan Chuunibyou has. I've prove way above, they are really different in source-power.
2. I'm not saying WVH as a metaphor, I'm saying Aoi has no relation to that especially a plot that correlates to our standard. You bring no evidences to support Aoi is a WVH user, unless bringing stuff that use a nauseous judgement "WVH has a description to control world around user just like Power of Balance that Aoi has, then Aoi must be a WVH user too!" is simply a hasty generalization fallacy.
3. Stuff like Meta-Story and protagonist mentioning in Instant Death only acts as a metaphor. Movie Metaphor in exact just like how official translations describe them, and It's differs than a context from Neechan Chuunibyou so stop doing bad scaling from that, because they has no correlation at all.
 
Duedate8898 said:
The fact that the powers themselves explicitly mention fate and not plot is what goes against these abilities being the manipulation of plot. She views fate as a script, he controls the future through a book but there is no mention of plot in his manipulating the future.

The scans in the OP very much point towards these abilities being based in fate and nothing to do with a plot.
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She views fate as script. This is literally a possible use for plot manipulation. Also, script is a metafictional element, not only “plot”. Who told you otherwise?
We never said only “plot” is the metafictional element.
  • Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
Click to expand...
 
EinelRendezvous said:
1. Since Aoi is not a user of WVH then there's no reason to scale her over the description that Neechan Chuunibyou has. I've prove way above, they are really different in source-power.
2. I'm not saying WVH as a metaphor, I'm saying Aoi has no relation to that especially a plot that correlates to our standard. You bring no evidences to support Aoi is a WVH user, unless bringing stuff that use a nauseous judgement "WVH has a description to control world around user just like Power of Balance that Aoi has, then Aoi must be a WVH user too!" is simply a hasty generalization fallacy.
3. Stuff like Meta-Story and protagonist mentioning in Instant Death only acts as a metaphor. Movie Metaphor in exact just like how official translations describe them, and It's differs than a context from Neechan Chuunibyou so stop doing bad scaling from that, because they has no correlation at all.
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It’s literally the same verse. 🤔

Do you think WVH’s wouldn’t be high destiny value existences?
 
Which staff members think what here so far, in summary?
 
Okay, but that doesn't actually tell me sufficiently useful information.
 
YungManzi said:
It’s literally the same verse. 🤔

Do you think WVH’s wouldn’t be high destiny value existences?
Click to expand...
Differents mechanism, you can't applying a hasty generalization fallacy just because it holds a similiar explanation. You need to prove it with solid evidences.

Antvasima said:
Which staff members think what here so far, in summary?
Click to expand...
It's @Duedate8898 who is agree with my point over the rating of Fate Manipulation.
 
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