Yogiri Takatou and Aoi Hayanose, mostly others that get scaled to Plot Manipulation downgrade to Fate Manipulation.

[PhantomØ4]

You are misunderstanding. The hero killer eyes argument was simply pointing out that Just World is not a System Ability. She says that her Sage ability is The Hero Killer Eyes.

You had previously made the claim that Just World was a Sage ability but it’s not. It’s not part of the system that would give her the supernatural ability of Just World. If it’s not the system ability would you mind telling me what it might be based on from all that we know?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Damn I misread your last sentence before posting. I apologize. Your claim that it is a Sage ability is baseless though, she says that her powers as a Sage are her Hero Killing Eyes. The sentence encompasses her abilities as Sage as a whole. Then it says that she had to main powers but it doesn’t say that they were from the system lol.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Aoi is a sage. If the ability to sees the fate itself from a variations of her sage abilities, then her abilities to control fate itself must be comes from Sage power. It's not a baseless. Do you realize the one who make claims is not from the Sage system is you? You need to prove why, as far as I remember, there's no statement that says Aoi got a power to manipulate fate other than her sage power. If you can bring statement where it from Aoi's base abilities and correlates to WVH other than doing Generalization Fallacy, then you can prove your claim. But right now, you just twist your words to make it complicated. Also you better read my bold arguments. You're exactly do like what I thought; doing circularity debates.

 

[PhantomØ4]

My vocabulary is that of a pre-pubescent child who spent about 15 minutes online arguing with people— if it somehow seems complicated it surely does make me wonder if you even understood the wikipedia entries for the logical fallacies and razors you name drop every other minute. If it wasn’t for my inability to spell words consistently while I type pointless walls of text, I’d say pretty confidently that my manner of writing is much more comprehensible than yours. It’s also a bit socially inept of you to call out a circularity debate when you are pulling a huge stonewall yet I had not gone ahead and called you out for it.

Needlessly stingy comments aside however. You keep saying “variation” or derived form but it is never ever described as a variation of the Sage ability, it is THE Sage Ability and my scan proves it within the first sentence which does not leave room for further Sage abilities unless you re-write the speech in a specific manner because the way it currently is does not leave room for further abilities.

Furthermore your other attempt at saying it says it’s a Sage ability comes from the novel simply saying that she has two superpowers right after she says “MY POWERS AS A SAGE ARE” and only names one of them. Only reason that is even plural is because a set of eyes are plural.

Also, this is only for just world and is not a claim about her completely separate ability to affect events by playing on events based on knowledge she has from her eyes. Her messing with stuff is not based on an ability and is based on the knowledge she gained from having the ability but that is separate.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

You claim things without evidences. That's enough to tell you doing circularity, you taking personal interpretations too much. The LN never implied that. Power-System in Instant Death is rather simple, you get a gift and being a sage would grant you a high-fate values with variations of abilities that controls fate itself. You can't say A who is a student and can "read" because of studying in school, won't have the capability to "write" just because A not mention it, because basically, both of them comes based on their official state. It's a basic analogy about a generated abilities, and taking to realistic step such as read and write in school can be translates to "An abilities is influenced by their official states". So yeah, I'm sure enough the one takes baseless assumption is you. Once more, you need evidences to supports your arguments.

Sorry if I'm being rude or anything, didn't mean it, this is just how I talk.

 

[PhantomØ4]

You claim things without evidences. That's enough to tell you doing circularity, you taking personal interpretations too much.

I do have evidence. You word this incorrectly and (I assume) unintentionally make it come across as if I was quite literally making shit up out of thin air rather than us disagreeing in what this evidence is saying or the validity of it which is different.

You did another false analogy though. What happened on the light novel is more like a person saying:

[“My best self-taught skills are programming”

He was really good at programming and drawing]

You don’t just pull and assume drawing was also a self taught skill. Your analogies are too long and change too much of the context, the less you change the wording of the situation; the better the situation is represented. Alternatively please do let me know why my metaphor differs more from the scenario compared to yours.

Metaphors are also really not the best and a bit overused anyways as their metaphorical nature leaves them open to more interpretation.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

I do have evidence.

Bring it.

You word this incorrectly and (I assume) unintentionally make it come across as if I was quite literally making shit up out of thin air rather than us disagreeing in what this evidence is saying or the validity of it which is different.

You did another false analogy though. What happened on the light novel is more like a person saying:

[“My best self-taught skills are programming”

He was really good at programming and drawing]

You don’t just pull and assume drawing was also a self taught skill. Your analogies are too long and change too much of the context, the less you change the wording of the situation; the better the situation is represented. Alternatively please do let me know why my metaphor differs more from the scenario compared to yours.

Metaphors are also really not the best and a bit overused anyways as their metaphorical nature leaves them open to more interpretation.

I'm not into circularity thing. Basically you're derailing my thread with this.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I already shared it and you disagreed with it. You are not gonna change your mind and I never hoped to change your mind, just put out the facts for someone else to be exposed to them. The nature of this forum is that of people just arguing as if they were gonna convince each other when they are never gonna do so until the one who has less life than the other wins by stonewall or third party users come to their own conclusions. “Circularity” is eventually gonna happen when either side refuses to tackle a topic that leads into another.

If I could make my own OP so that people could see the points of everyone against you I would but that isn’t doable and so it comes to this.

And you don’t even understand the power system of instant death properly considering the whole high fate value Sage thing isn’t part of the power system, that’s just an Aoi thing.

I am unlikely to pop up again as I have gigs to attend to and exams to fail but good luck with your CRT.

 

[RitsuØ1]

Something ain't right here. I am going to put my two cents worth here.

Updated for disagree list.

• Disagree:
@PhantomØ4 @Overlord_THE_END

Also, topic on. I disagree with the downgrade.

Didn't even mention the first person who disagreed. SMH.

You should constantly update the vote list, even with the people who disagrees with this or else it would look like pure bias. SMH.

Elizhaa, Phantom, and OVERLORD made good points. So yeah. This is a hard disagree for me.

Spoiler

Oh look. Another notification from a thread that I am watching. What a wonderful night to spend on the day of my Finals.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The plot term is separated when Aoi is described as fate/destiny, plot, and the like as being a joke to Yogiri's true form, in the LN raws; so, I see it is possible they are different from the evidence above, and make less sense if they are metaphors, especially when they are shown as separated in some key instance.
The raws used above:

• 運命: destiny or fate
• 筋書き: synopsis; outline; plot

Besides, plot manipulation can emulate other abilities like fate, according to the page:

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).

The case above could also apply to Yukimasa regarding plot manipulation.
Aoi's inability to erase the dragon is more of the mechanism of her worldview, and she still could affect the dragons, as Overlord explained; the plot usage is judged on a case-by-case basis, so it could be just her usage, and it is not necessarily a counterpoint for removal. It seems like the point is indirectly using NLF by saying because the ability has limits, it should be removed, similar to what Theglassman12 said.

The scan above shows Aoi's ability drags others to her internal world like Worldview.
I think the opposition points make more sense.

Thanks for your input. This scan was the first the scan I used to clarify the misunderstanding. Therefore I change my stance to disagreeing with the thread

 

[ImmortalDread]

The point is we can't do a hasty generalization fallacy just because it comes from the same author. For example Arale from Dr Slump who is on the same setting with Dragon Balls, you can't claim Zen-Oh has a same hax capability like her (plot hax, HDM stuff) just because they are from the same setting, and Zen-Oh consistenly called as the King of All and the strongest that can erase everything including U7 existence which Arales stand in.

Dragon ball is really bad example because they have explicitly shown different setting

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Didn't even mention the first person who disagreed. SMH.

Bro, Dread literally ask me to delete the name on disagree list because the thought goes to neutral.

You should constantly update the vote list, even with the people who disagrees with this or else it would look like pure bias. SMH.

Ofc I will.

Elizhaa, Phantom, and OVERLORD made good points. So yeah. This is a hard disagree for me.

• Rebuttal for Elizhaa's points.

We should note that Aoi's explanation of seeing Yogiri as it really is, she refers to Yogiri as "the end of all destinies" [ 1 ], and the words that carry "plot" [ 2 ] have no coherence because they do not act as our standard definition of plot, we define "plot" as a fundamental aspect that sees reality as fictional. Aoi is not like that, the point where she sees fate as a "script" is directly explained by her as a "movie metaphor" [ 3 ] which means a metaphor only, and in her explanation includes "if" [ 4 ]. A metaphor is a figure of speech that describes an object or action in a way that isn't literally true, but helps explain an idea or make a comparison. And here Aoi's explanation to Yogiri that "plot" can be interpreted like that. And also officially based on the novel, plot is never 'mentioned' [5] anywhere but only correlated fate so as our standard that prioritises the primary source, here LN is better to believe in a way that if you think about it, the "plot" included in the manga is not explained anymore into what form, not even into a fundamental form so we cannot arbitrarily say like that.

Furthermore, there is no other evidence that contains what this 'plot' is related to, but it is always fate that is brought up. Destiny is defined as everything that governs things and in order to defeat someone who is protected by destiny, it is necessary for destiny to also fight back [ 6 ]. This is a blantant form of Fate Manipulation, and it is never indicated that Fate works how the plot works on us. With this, it is clear that the understanding you bring is not contextually aware at all, saying the opposition is "more reasonable" when they lack a lot of evidence such as;
1. There is no evidence that Aoi is a "World-View Holder" other than just saying that her abilities are similar in description.
2. There is no "plot" in the official novels and raws, as has been brought up here. It always leads to metaphors.
3. There is no evidence that fate acts as a fundamental aspect that views reality as fictional. So it doesn't follow our standards.

[ 1 ] https://gyazo.com/cdddc7488a502adfcbc0d4435fa1a691
[2] https://gyazo.com/a753d41cd683fa65adc56c33be6d54e8
[3]
[ 4 ]
[ 5 ] https://gyazo.com/5860d6d09ade91e10895e166b496bee6
[ 6 ] https://gyazo.com/f434878a3d45b248685c907e3e2183fe

• Rebuttal for Overlord's points.

The reference you brought above has a misinterpretation. Because the description of the ability 'Mutsuko' has a mechanism as an ability that can be used to defeat World-View Holders because it is not limited by mere viewpoints and logically, a weaker world-view will be swallowed up, which is why there is a description from Yuichi mentioning this: "You end up with a world conflict. The two fuse, with the weaker world absorbed by the stronger. In most cases, the more special world is more powerful. So if that happened, the magic world would overwrite the normal one." - Because what actually happened was explaining the analogy between the two World-View Holders. It could not be the case that Aoi had these abilities, just because "the names are similar" while the mechanics were very different, where Aoi's Cruel World and Power of Balance were only abilities that brought the world closer to the user and manipulated it in the subtle flow of fate. These are two abilities that already have different premises.

This analogy is not clever enough to say that Aoi is WVH. Since the references only act as references, there is no "canon" intent in the implementation of the story. Pressuring a reference to be the same without any evidence of continuity will only lead you into the Slippery Slope Fallacy. And, for the next reference of Chiharu are two different entities. Chiharu in neechan chuunibyou is an acquaintance of Yuichi who is another chuunibyou girl, and is fat [ 1 ]. In Instant Death, she is described as the guardian ghost of Tomochika, and the character who is the responsible person for not letting Sion's system be installed on Tomochika as a way of protecting her, and later reveals herself to Tomochika, and eventually to Yogiri. Her skill set also dates back to the Heian period, so it's a long way off, but what really sets them apart is their backgrounds. Tomochika here is her "descendants", which is why she protects Tomochika and becomes her Ancestial Guardian [ 2 ]. There is no correlation at all, you are committing the Half-Truth Fallacy by ignoring the context that the Chiharu in Nee-chan chuunibyou is just an acquaintance of Yuuichi and she is still alive. They are two different entities.

[ 1 ] https://gyazo.com/b29e08c2f4a8be512130b60e4fe5547b
[ 2 ]

And for Phantom, he does nothing than arguing for the sake of argue, he brings no solid evidences to support his claim, I tend to ignore him unless he brings some solid-evidences to do a cross-scaling between ID and neechan-chuunibyou.

Dragon ball is really bad example because they have explicitly shown different setting

Different setting what exactly? They are literally in the same setting. Goku has made appearance as well in Dr Slump which he turns into an Oozaru.

 

[Robo432343]

should we get ant here??

 

[ImmortalDread]

Different setting what exactly? They are literally in the same setting. Goku has made appearance as well in Dr Slump which he turns into an Oozaru.

There will be thread changing it as there are some misconceptions (soon)

 

[EinelRendezvous]

There will be thread changing it as there are some misconceptions (soon)

Don't derail my thread please. Also, I'm using them only for an analogy purpose.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Don't derail my thread please. Also, I'm using them only for an analogy purpose.

Derail? I proved your instance usage wrong. You involved DB as example here and not me.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

Derail? I proved your instance usage wrong. You involved DB as example here and not me.

Prove what? Which prove do you bring? DB and Dr Slump is on the same setting, you can see it on the Imgur. Are you thinking your sentence of "there will be thread changing" is enough to disprove the multiple evidences on that imgur? I don't think so. Also, they are act as an analogy ( 2 ). Don't bring other stuff.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Literally, even the author of this verse confirmed they are both the same setting. Stop with this argument.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Chiharu in neechan chuunibyou is an acquaintance of Yuichi who is another chuunibyou girl, and is fat [ 1 ]. In Instant Death, she is described as the guardian ghost of Tomochika, and the character who is the responsible person for not letting Sion's system be installed on Tomochika as a way of protecting her, and later reveals herself to Tomochika, and eventually to Yogiri. Her skill set also dates back to the Heian period, so it's a long way off, but what really sets them apart is their backgrounds. Tomochika here is her "descendants", which is why she protects Tomochika and becomes her Ancestial Guardian [ 2 ]. There is no correlation at all, you are committing the Half-Truth Fallacy by ignoring the context that the Chiharu in Nee-chan chuunibyou is just an acquaintance of Yuuichi and she is still alive. They are two different entities.

WHAT??
You assume my intention wrong there buddy.

The point of this scan


Is to show that:

1. Tomochika Dannoura has a sister, Chiharu Dannoura which she left back in her original world.
2. Chiharu Dannoura was there in Nee-chan No Chuunibyo universe, which mean Tomochika came from Nee-chan universe.
3. If Tomochika is from Nee-chan universe, that would make her and all other japanese came from that universe (Nee-chan universe) since Shion and all other sage (excluding Van and Mitsuki who obviously not japanese) have says they came from japan.

Sorry to say, all of your refference is just a manipulating context man. They have no correlation at all. I have prove why, especially the second refference. They are literally a different character. One is the ancestor of Tomochika and Guardian of her (from ID), while Chiharu from Neechan Chuunibyou is a fat-chuunibyou girl who can do archery. Are you serious making claim like that?

Bro, the guardian spirit is Mokomoko Dannoura. Tomochika and Chiharu's ancestor.
She has nothing to do with my claim and my intention.


Mokomoko is not Chiharu.

Please stop doing Straw Man Fallacy by assuming and making up my intention.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

There is no "plot" in the official novels and raws, as has been brought up here. It always leads to metaphors.

筋書き is in the raws, as Elizhaa literally linked above. The scan from where you are basing your metaphor argument is not the same scan that Elizhaa linked. They are two different scenes with two different contexts. Trying to say that Elizhaa's scan doesn't have "plot" mentioned and it's a metaphor is just being dishonest, because not only it does have the kanji for plot, but it also has nothing to do with the earlier dialogue of Aoi with Hanakawa and it implies absolutely nothing of what you are claiming. To keep doing that is just lying and Affirming the Consequent. The official translations are not perfect, and anyone with a brain can see that they blatantly omitted the sentence that contained the plot mention (for whatever reason). On this site, the official translations can be disregarded if they are shown to be mistranslated or omit some detail, which is this case.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

They did share the same setting. Dragon Ball Super crossover, Dragon Ball kid cameo, and Dragon World map where it puts Arale's home saying everything. The value here, by using a logic of you guys, Zen-Oh would had a way to neg a plot hax because he can erase everything. And Arale who holds no capability to face him by same setting means will get affected as well.

Even if it was, Arale scales to a world that transcends the cosmology as a whole, Zenō 's realm included. So it'd be a false equivalence regardless.She's Low 1-C, he's 2-C. As simple as that.

Btw, a blogger is going to be made on that iirc,but Dr. Slump and DB won't share the same setting because reasons (inconsistencies and stuff like that)

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

筋書き is in the raws, as Elizhaa literally linked above. The scan from where you are basing your metaphor argument is not the same scan that Elizhaa linked. They are two different scenes with two different contexts. Trying to say that Elizhaa's scan doesn't have "plot" mentioned and it's a metaphor is just being dishonest, because not only it does have the kanji for plot, but it also has nothing to do with the earlier dialogue of Aoi with Hanakawa and it implies absolutely nothing of what you are claiming. To keep doing that is just lying and Affirming the Consequent. The official translations are not perfect, and anyone with a brain can see that they blatantly omitted the sentence that contained the plot mention (for whatever reason). On this site, the official translations can be disregarded if they are shown to be mistranslated or omit some detail, which is this case.

Pretty much this.

Official =/= Accurate

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

There is no "plot" in the official novels and raws

Honestly i dont care with this downgrade at all bcause ive zero knowledge about the series, but im just confirming that there is a Plot term mentioned in the raw which is separate from the piece of scan that you brought.

そんな者を相手に 、運命だの、筋書きだの戯れ言 にもならない 。それは戦おうと考えることすら馬鹿らし い 存 在 だ 。

Note: There is the upper mini text or Furigana above 戯れ言 that is ざこと or can be read as ざれこと which means Joke.

So we can see it mentioning plot and fate written as: 筋書き (Sujigaki) and 運命 (Unmei).

 

[YungManzi]

Is there any else besides Einel who has disagreements?

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Well, I do wish the OP do update the disagreement tally.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't have a knowledge on the verse but scans seems enough for plot manipulation and I don't see anything wrong with them given elizhaa and oblivion reasoning with the recent scans overload added in favour. I have to disagree with the downgrade/OP.

 

[Dereck03]

I agree with Elizhaa and therefore disagree with the OP.

 

[EinelRendezvous]

I'm kinda busy for tomorrow, I hope this thread won't get closed by the time I'm busy.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I'm kinda busy for tomorrow, I hope this thread won't get closed by the time I'm busy.

Remember to update the tally first.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Remember to update the tally first.

Yap, there are two staff disagreements as well
I changed my neutrality to disagreement as well.

 

[Lynieryz]

Disagree FRA

 

[YungManzi]

Disagree FRA

 

[Duedate8898]

So I have a question, the idea against the OP is that because of the setting of Instant Death is shared with the setting of Neechan wa Chuunibyou, which has plot manipulatio accepted that in this case what's going on in Instant Death is also plot manipulation?

 

[ImmortalDread]

So I have a question, the idea against the OP is that because of the setting of Instant Death is shared with the setting of Neechan wa Chuunibyou, which has plot manipulatio accepted that in this case what's going on in Instant Death is also plot manipulation?

Yes, and there are multiple proofs of this. And the other argument is “there are no limitations” which is debunked by multiple staff members here.
And there is explicit statement where plot and fate are separated (which I mentioned it at the first post and @Elizhaa mentioned once again)

 

[Duedate8898]

Cool, then I'll say why does Neechan wa Chuunibyou have plot manipulation as a power when the only scan on the profiles for anything of that nature is this one which directly calls out the world being a story as a figure of speech. Has this already been covered in this thread and I just missed it?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, it is not “figure of speech”, read the last part, each world is other story. And this has been accepted in other thread.
Also, this scan explicitly shows plot manipulation and reality-fiction transcendence.

 

[Duedate8898]

No it does not, the character in question giving the explanation, explicitly says:
"To say that it's a story is more a figure of speech."

That right there, points towards any other mentions of stories or plot being figures of speech since this is the same exact conversation. For what other reasons, would she say the quote I have listed above.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nope, you ignore that the world is a story. Literally, look at other part of sentences, they were literally talking about replacing with protagonists and others and even vanquish them. Everyone has a worldview holder. And everyone has their own universe. And afterwards it actually says it is inevitable to become characters in somebody else's.

This has been accepted here.

 

[Duedate8898]

Sure, it was accepted but never in that very short thread was it brought up the inherent contradiction in using that scan to support plot manipulation when it very specifically says that to call the world a story is more a figure of speech.

In fact, she then breaks down and explains how in actuality what's going own is ones observation of the universal allowing them to change it. Which isn't plot manipulation by any stretch of the means but subjective reality which on the profile themselves is what this scan is used for. There are no scans on the profiles which straight up say the characters are manipulation the plot and the scan I'm talking about right now straight up says that calling the world a story is a figure of speech.

Why would the character speaking say: "To say that it's a story is more a figure of speech" otherwise? She doesn't walk back this statement or anything like that in the scan above. Is there a scan somewhere else that says Yuri was lying or that she was wrong when she states the above? Because if there is not, there's no way Worldview Holders are manipulating the plot of their story.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yuri views the comparison to be more of a figure of speech but other characters in the same story don’t.

Monika even had a an explanation where she points out that there are some different ways to think about it but she solely subscribes to the idea of stories with meta structure.

There are far more characters and actual mechanics of the abilities that support the ideas of stories beyond only Monika, it’s not just a common constant metaphor by isolated world view holders and the narration. Yuri just thinks about worldviews in a different manner to Ende, Monika, ect… not that she is lying.