Yhwach vs Goetia

[Paul_Frank]

Just read the past 200 something comments first

But basically

Something something verse equalization and if Yhwach dies in the past or is prevented from existing due to all life on Earth being erased in the past Goetia wins

 

[AppleLord]

Just read the past 200 something comments first
But basically

Something something verse equalization and if Yhwach dies in the past or is prevented from existing due to all life on Earth being erased in the past Goetia wins

But Yhwach was born on the afterlife.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yhwach gained his power by giving out pieces of his soul to humans and reabsorbing it which is impossible if no humans ever existed

Also nothing implies Yhwach being born in the afterlife besides the soul king being his father

Either way if Goetia wipes out all life in the past present and future and absorbs the souls of everything then that would throw the flow of souls out of balance anyway and lead to the destruction of the afterlife anyway

 

[AppleLord]

Yhwach gained his power by giving out pieces of his soul to humans and reabsorbing it which is impossible if no humans ever existed
Also nothing implies Yhwach being born in the afterlife besides the soul king being his father

Either way if Goetia wipes out all life in the past present and future and absorbs the souls of everything then that would throw the flow of souls out of balance anyway and lead to the destruction of the afterlife anyway

How is Goetia gonna know about the flow of souls and where Yhwach is located as a baby when Yhwach absorbed the powers of Mimihagi who was immune to precog? Goetia can't see Yhwach's future or past. Going back in time to do such feat will lead to Goetia confronting Prime Soul King who created the verse and the living world. Smh

 

[Paul_Frank]

Goetia doesn't need to know about Yhwach or the flow of souls

When he time travels and fires off AAS it wipes all life out in the past present and future at once and Goetia absorbs the spiritrons that are left

 

[AppleLord]

Goetia doesn't need to know about Yhwach or the flow of souls
When he time travels and fires off AAS it wipes all life out in the past present and future at once and Goetia absorbs the spiritrons that are left

"travels through time to destroy the surface of the planet in the past, present, and future all at once, eradicating humanity at all points in time."

This would literately be stopped by Prime Soul King at all cost. Prime Soul King existed Eons ago in the Bleach-verse and possess The Almighty which he used to split the old universe. He was born when the old world stopped moving because of a planet size Menos Grande that appeared and started eating souls, and in that old world the concepts of life and death didn't exist. He was brought into existence to stopped a being from eating all souls and causing annihilation. Going back in time is not an option for Goetia because Prime Soul King was walking freely at that time and could fight. He choose to be sealed willingly, and having the power to see the future he will know Goetia is coming and choose not to get seal away in order to stop him.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Very nice but that is outside help

 

[Paul_Frank]

Also the soul king wouldn't be able to precog Goetia even if he was allowed to help cause ya know

Acausality

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Hold on, why is AAS gonna surface wipe humans when Bleach ones that Yhwach got power from are millions of years old as a race. AAS only has feats for shooting throughout 3000 years or so.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Because Goetia explicitly travels back to the begining of the planet

 

[AppleLord]

Very nice but that is outside help

It counts as BFR because he got killed for been wacko and didn't return to the battlefield. He basically killed himself for trying to destroy a world protected by a deity. Prime Soul King cares nothing about his child, but he does for the balance. He was unknowingly born for that sole purpose. (We don't know if he created himself or someone else created him. He just appeared out of nowhere.)

 

[AppleLord]

Because Goetia explicitly travels back to the begining of the planet

Let me check. Oh, yeah that one point in time where the clan leaders of the five noble houses told their ideas to the Prime Soul King for a new world where "death" and "live" were created and Prime Soul King used The Almighty to create the Living World to separate it from the Afterlife, and close The Pit which was renamed Hell. Yeah, great plan. Soul King willingly got sealed afterwards. Smh.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Idk why you keep mentioning the soul king

There is no outside help here otherwise I could just say Akasha deletes the Soul king for messing with the world

 

[AppleLord]

Also the soul king wouldn't be able to precog Goetia even if he was allowed to help cause ya know
Acausality

Not him directly. But he could see of the future of everything else which would mean their "deaths". Not been able to see why is this happening he would do everything in his power to stop it which includes staying around instead of getting sealed away.

 

[AppleLord]

Idk why you keep mentioning the soul king
There is no outside help here otherwise I could just say Akasha deletes the Soul king for messing with the world

Akasha doesn't exist in Yhwach's past. Goetia is traveling to Yhwach's timeline verse.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Uhhh

You really didn't read the last 200 comments did you

This takes place in sbaverse Goetia isn't traveling to the bleach verse

 

[AppleLord]

Uhhh
You really didn't read the last 200 comments did you

This takes place in sbaverse Goetia isn't traveling to the bleach verse

No matter in which verse the fight is located in the present timeline, Goetia has to time travel back to Yhwach's past, and according to the statement you just made it seems that Goetia cannot travel back in time to Yhwach's past because it doesn't exist in sbaverse. Goetia has to go the bleachverse if Yhwach's past is to be affected in some shape or form but that's useless as long as Goetia's goal is to erase the flow of souls which has deity as the Prime Soul King protecting it.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It has already been established that sbaverse's neutrality allows mechanics such as time travel paradoxing to work without traveling to the other character's verse

 

[AppleLord]

It has already been established that sbaverse's neutrality allows mechanics such as time travel paradoxing to work without traveling to the other character's verse

That's impossible. Assuming Akasha is the creator of the sbaverse and Prime Soul King the creator of the bleachverse how is even the past a thing? Explained. Because you're not making sense.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Hold on, why is AAS gonna surface wipe humans when Bleach ones that Yhwach got power from are millions of years old as a race. AAS only has feats for shooting throughout 3000 years or so.

Because AAS has compounding time frames. Also, once he has incinerated 3000 years worth of stuff he can remake the entire world

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm not assuming Akasha is the creator of the sbaverse

I'm saying either sk or Akasha doing anything is outside help

 

[AppleLord]

I'm not assuming Akasha is the creator of the sbaverse
I'm saying either sk or Akasha doing anything is outside help

Goetia going back in time and accidentally falling inside a black hole isn't outside help. Goetia going back in time and colliding with Prime Soul King isn't outside help. Like I said. Prime Soul King cares nothing about his son. However, Goetia's goal just happens to fall under the protection of that deity in the past. Is like Goetia trying to go on a heist but having to face the guards of the bank first.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Also, what are the soul king's abilities exactly? If they fall under Noble Phantasm or overlap with what a known noble Phantasm does, then Nega-Summon should be able to counter it

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Just pointing out that Goetia's clairvoyance is probably beyond Yhwach's resistance.

Seeing all the past and all possible futures > just seeing one future

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Yhwach's can see countless of possible future like a grain of sands in the air actually.

But yeah, seeing past and future is above his resistance's paygrade.

 

[AppleLord]

Just pointing out that Goetia's clairvoyance is probably beyond Yhwach's resistance.
Seeing all the past and all possible futures > just seeing one future

Yhwach's resistance is Mimihagi's power of Stillness/Stagnatio the user has no present and no future.

 

[Solacis]

@AppleLord

Goetia sees infinite timelines throughout the past, present and future. Ywach only has present and future sight. Ywach sees all possible outcomes from his current present point to every branching path and onwards, while Goetia sees everything from the beginning of creation and all that branch out from there regardless of when he is.

Goetia's is far superior. Not that it matters, this is the longest-running stomp thread I've ever seen. Second place being Kaguya V.S. Goetia.

 

[AppleLord]

@AppleLord
Goetia sees infinite timelines throughout the past, present and future. Ywach only has present and future sight. Ywach sees all possible outcomes from his current present point to every branching path and onwards, while Goetia sees everything from the beginning of creation and all that branch out from there regardless of when he is.

Goetia's is far superior. Not that it matters, this is the longest-running stomp thread I've ever seen. Second place being Kaguya V.S. Goetia.

Yhwach's precognition has nothing to do with Mimihagi's Stagnation. Goetia cannot see the past of something that possess none after taking Mimihagi's powers.

 

[AppleLord]

Also, what are the soul king's abilities exactly? If they fall under Noble Phantasm or overlap with what a known noble Phantasm does, then Nega-Summon should be able to counter it

Rei-o means Soul King.

Now. After he willingly got sealed away. The 5 noble houses did this to his body.

From the light novel:

"Perhaps it was because he could see the far-flung future.... Maybe he could not escape his fear; or maybe he found some hope in the new world.... I don't really understand... But the Rei-o dared not resist it." The monk lowered his eyes and then repeated his first words.

"But the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even this non-resistance. Afraid of the Rei-o escaping from his seal by himself; he neither wanted the Rei-o to live nor did he want to kill him. Continuing this helix of contradictions, the Right Arm of 'stagnation' and the Left Arm of 'Progress' were torn off."

The recruits drew in sharp breaths. The four members of the Zero Division, except for the monk, had unfathomable expressions on their faces; but they remained silent.

The monk then stated a cruel fact in a flat tone as if he was talking about the weather.

"Well; I suppose that still wasn't enough. The ancestors; including Tsunayashiro; gouged out his heart and internal organs; and dismembered both his legs. Doing so, they destroyed his power; creating a king convenient for themselves."

Upon hearing the monk's tale; Shutara Senjumaru, who had remained silent until then, opened her mouth with a smile. But that smile was heavy with traces of insurrection.

"Convenient indeed. He continues to remain the lynchpin without ever having a say in the workings of this world, while the real business is carried out by others."

Governs Stagnation/Stillness with his left hand- Has resistance to Precognition as Rei-o is in a state of Stagnation. He has no past and no future.

Governs Progress with his right hand - Can adapt in the course of battle to his opponents and copy it's abilities, stats, and speed. Can self-multiply with a Hive mind. (Plus Soul Regenerationn.)

Governs Fate & Clairvoyance with his eyes - Can see all possible futures from the present into the far future and choose what event from the future becomes reality by bringing said event from a possible future to the present. (Works on souls, weapons, and the environment.)

Governs Hope with his heart - As long as foes have doubts in their hearts the masses turn in favor of Rei-o and he can turn any physical damage into God Size. Basically, Immortality + Evolutionary Power Reaction + Size Manipulation

Governs Imagination with his brain - Anything he imagines becomes reality.

Governs Desire with his nail - This one was originally's Matsumoto's fragment of the Rei-o that Aizen took from her and added to complete the Hogyoku. This was the piece of her soul that Gin wanted to get back from Aizen and kill him. It grants you any wish you have that is withing the possibilities of your own power. Aizen's monster form according to the data-book is the form of a Rei-o.

Governs Matter with his soul chain - Created the world of the living by splitting the old world made of reishi (spiritual matter) and created the world out of Kishi (Matter), and stated in the manga reishi and kishi don't mix well. That's how the worlds were separated.

Governs Life & Death with his bones - This is the most vague one of them all. Rei-o created Life and Death this concepts didn't exist in the old world. Now. Ichibei in the manga tells Ichigo that Rei-o gave him the Oken (Rei-o's bones), but in the light novels is explained further that Ichibei took the bones. And you guess it. Ichibei's power allows him to control life and death.

A quote from the light novel to describe his power in a nutshell:

"That's right. Others; with special powers, including myself; appeared, but it is fair to say that the Rei-o stood out; his powers very close to omnipotence and omniscience."

 

[Solacis]

Mimihagi's powers only affect present and future, not past. Goetia can see into the past. Goetia has nigh-omniscience from his clairvoyance, and thus can find out the perfect time to travel back to and kill Ywach. This is a stomp. There is literally no point to arguing further because Ywach has no way to win that Goetia can't instantly shut down.

 

[AppleLord]

Mimihagi's powers only affect present and future, not past. Goetia can see into the past. Goetia has nigh-omniscience from his clairvoyance, and thus can find out the perfect time to travel back to and kill Ywach. This is a stomp. There is literally no point to arguing further because Ywach has no way to win that Goetia can't instantly shut down.

Are you forgetting what stagnation/stillness means? Users can cause anything that they target to become unchanging and doesn't progress or regress. Stagnation users have no past or future. Smh

 

[Solacis]

That is literally not how Mimihagi's powers work. It stops progress: forward movement in time. It cannot affect what has already happened or else he'd be acausal, and he's not. Neither is Yhwach. Go make a CRT if you want to say otherwise, because as things are Yhwach is still getting paradoxed out of existence the moment the fight begins.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Mimihagi has resistance to precog there is no reason to say it is completely acasual and resistant to retrocog as well

 

[AppleLord]

That is literally not how Mimihagi's powers work. It stops progress: forward movement in time. It cannot affect what has already happened or else he'd be acausal, and he's not. Neither is Yhwach. Go make a CRT if you want to say otherwise, because as things are Yhwach is still getting paradoxed out of existence the moment the fight begins.

That's what Stagnation is:

https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Stagnatio

And for a being that existed before the concepts of life and death were created acacusality is a low-ball. Don't worry the crt are gonna be made once the last chapter of the novel gets translated.

Yhwach cannot be paradoxed because he obtained Mimihagi's powers of Stagnation/Stillness. Even if we assume that Goetia can somehow see his past (because YH & Mimi's profiles are outdated), Goetia will still have to deal with the Soul King.

You cannot simply have someone's past exist without anyone else on them. The universe isn't empty when you time travel. Time travel doesn't grant you Omnipresence, Omnipotence, and Omniscience. Goetia's plan is not going to go the way he thinks because his plan intervenes with the Soul King's goal.

The creation of the world of the living is already a fixed point in time. You cannot go back to the creation of that world and don't have whoever created disappear from the past because you feel like it.

 

[AppleLord]

Mimihagi has resistance to precog there is no reason to say it is completely acasual and resistant to retrocog as well

Both manga and light novels states that Mimihagi GOVERNS THE CONCEPT OF STAGNATION.

 

[Solacis]

Make a Content Revision Thread.

You are being unnecessarily hostile, AppleLord. You are citing other wikis as proof of your claims, not to mention a superpower page instead of Mimihagi's profile, or even just scans from the manga. Mimihagi's best feat is resisting Yhwach's precognition, which is inferior to Goetia's. To claim that a feat of resisting Yhwach's precog is grounds for him resisting one that is superior is a No-Limits-Fallacy. To go a step further and claim that Mimihagi's powers grant acausality, without supporting scans, cannot and will not be accepted. Unless you can give feats, all of your claims hold no water.

Now, be civil and debate with reason, or we can take this to the rule violation thread.

 

[AppleLord]

Make a Content Revision Thread.
You are being unnecessarily hostile, AppleLord. You are citing other wikis as proof of your claims, not to mention a superpower page instead of Mimihagi's profile, or even just scans from the manga. Mimihagi's best feat is resisting Yhwach's precognition, which is inferior to Goetia's. To claim that a feat of resisting Yhwach's precog is grounds for him resisting one that is superior is a No-Limits-Fallacy. To go a step further and claim that Mimihagi's powers grant acausality, without supporting scans, cannot and will not be accepted. Unless you can give feats, all of your claims hold no water.

Now, be civil and debate with reason, or we can take this to the rule violation thread.

I don't know what you're talking about in reference to breaking the rules. I'm just posting the definition of stagnation. But I do agree that we should stop talking about Stagnation until the revision thread happens in about a month's time.

 

[Solacis]

Your hostility was an issue. But seeing as you're fine now, that's been settled.

Now can we finally close this thread?

 

[AppleLord]

Your hostility was an issue. But seeing as you're fine now, that's been settled.
Now can we finally close this thread?

You meant the cap letters? Oh, that was just in case he didn't read previously that the left hand of Rei-o governs stagnation as a whole. I didn't meant for it to appear as a shout. Sorry.

Yes, this thread can be close as many agree with Goetia stopping Yhwach. But I personally don't agree. That would be a discussion for another time if the thread is re-open or someone makes a new one further down the line.

 

[Gaatsuh]

half of the votes are "fra", without even reading what was being debated, or what was going on in the thread.