Bill Cipher vs Yhwach (0-0-1)

[Phsccarvalho]

I can say the same with you.

Can you stop spamming this argument from authority and actually refute my point?

As a Mindscape being, Bill has all the abilities of such here.

You are saying something that is in line with the wiki's rules and standards. So I'm asking you where you got this rule from on the wiki. It's very simple. The issue of authority is of little importance here. Since we follow the wiki's standards and rules, it is literally the authority (in this case, the staff) who has the power to decide things about standard crts, etc. For me, it is not even necessary to show me a crt for me to grant it, simply having some staff member speak is enough. Otherwise, I can just say that Bill ***** his pants in fear when he sees the guy with the mustache.

 

[Hellscream]

Alright, I'll also get Bill stomp votes (which are already 3, @Shar122, @TheOrangeGuy09 and @ExSENNA).

What is HDI? If you mean HDE, I hope you know that it's not necessary to be Higher-Dimensional to travel across higher dimensions.

Bill also is not that because he is explicitly 2-D.

WELL, I have one.

What can Yhwach do against Bill using SI on him from another universe

Bill using something out of yhwach's conventional range, doesn't mean that Yhwach canr't see it affecting him in the future.
Yhwach is capable of altering all possibilities, and powernulls everything he sees.
Which means, if bill decides to attack Yhwach at any point in time, even beyond range, it would come within Yhwach's sphere of influence, as he's directly attacking Yhwach, which he would therefore logically see.

 

[YmTheSuper]

SI is natural charisma, not enforced mind hax

If he can resist mind and empathic hax I see no reason why charisma would work.

Also can Bill deal with Mid-Godly regen and Type 4 immo (His negation shouldn't work on yhwach since it requires soul manip which Yhwach resists).

Also no one answered this other than the SI hax thing.

What is HDI? If you mean HDE, I hope you know that it's not necessary to be Higher-Dimensional to travel across higher dimensions.

I don't know why this slipped my mind, obviously a 2D character can exist in a higher dimensional structure lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

You are saying something that is in line with the wiki's rules and standards. So I'm asking you where you got this rule from on the wiki. It's very simple. The issue of authority is of little importance here. Since we follow the wiki's standards and rules, it is literally the authority (in this case, the staff) who has the power to decide things about standard crts, etc. For me, it is not even necessary to show me a crt for me to grant it, simply having some staff member speak is enough. Otherwise, I can just say that Bill ***** his pants in fear when he sees the guy with the mustache.

While not on Madness, it's about if Subjective Reality can or cannot erase people with EE resistance. As Fear is an application of Madness hax, the same applies here.

If he can resist mind and empathic hax I see no reason why charisma would work.

Because Charisma. Is. Not. Mind. Control.

Mind and emphatic hax are supernatural abilities that forcefully change these, while SI instead naturally convinces people to change their mind by their own will.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also no one answered this other than the SI hax thing.

Bill is x40 weaker than Yhwach given their stats, as Bill is baseline 3-C here.

Though he can incap Yhwach by using Large Size and TK combined with Class Y LS.

 

[Hellscream]

It's diabolical that dark schneider is above Yhwach on that top 15 list lol

Idk the other chinese characters

 

[ExSENNA]

Alright, I'll also get Bill stomp votes (which are already 3, @Shar122, @TheOrangeGuy09 and @ExSENNA).

I didn't vote, just felt like ranting after seeing yet another time Yhwach is thrown against some Smurf which in this case has 1-B shenanigans

My post was merely a rant about a frequently repeated pattern which this match might or might not be a part of, I won't follow to see it

 

[StrymULTRA]

I didn't vote, just felt like ranting after seeing yet another time Yhwach is thrown against some Smurf which in this case has 1-B shenanigans

I mean, if enough people say that it's a stomp, then I suppose it can be deemed as such with this being closed, I meant this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's diabolical that dark schneider is above Yhwach on that top 15 list lol

You can try to change that tbf.

 

[Hellscream]

For it to be a "stomp"
you need a valid reason for it to be counted as such, and so far no argument has been provided that Bill can even incap Yhwach.

Like just saying "bill stomps" is not a valid argument

 

[StrymULTRA]

you need a valid reason for it to be counted as such, and so far no argument has been provided that Bill can even incap Yhwach.

SI and Class Y TK, all of them can happen from 1-B range.

 

[Hellscream]

You can try to change that tbf.

Nah idrc that much, bleach is outdated on VSBW

 

[Hellscream]

SI and Class Y TK, all of them can happen from 1-B range.

And i explained how this is irrelevant, as the 1-B range is just where he's attacking Yhwach from, to affect Yhwach himself he needs to come in his sphere of influence, which Yhwach can affect.

It's basically just bill being able to attack yhwach from a "safe space" but being able to attack him =/= being able to defeat him.

His attacks will affect Yhwach, which Yhwach will see, and will therefore be able to powernull / alter this.

Affecting Yhwach in any way shape or form = coming in range of The Almighty basically

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yap

Yhwach cannot resist TK on that level, that'd be NLF, for one.

Second, I talk about SI too, you cannot really powernull persuasion, especially if Bill can talk to him from literally higher-dimensions away from him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also realized I cannot add this match to the profiles:

• Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against non-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.

So yeah, this really is only for Top 15

 

[Hellscream]

Yhwach cannot resist TK on that level, that'd be NLF, for one.

Second, I talk about SI too, you cannot really powernull persuasion, especially if Bill can talk to him from literally higher-dimensions away from him.

Explain how powernulling TK is an NLF.

Secondary, why would you not be able to powernull persuasion you haven't really provided proof for this statement.

Also i read through his "social influence" how is this even supposed to do anything aginst Yhwach in the first place lol?
Is he going to convince Yhwach to disable the almighty, without even knowing what it is?
Like i really don't get what you're trying to argue here

 

[StrymULTRA]

Explain how powernulling TK is an NLF.

Because his TK is Class Y, beyond what Yhwach has in his profile in LS?

Secondary, why would you not be able to powernull persuasion you haven't really provided proof for this statement.

How can you powernull someone talking to you lol? That makes no sense.

Also i read through his "social influence" how is this even supposed to do anything aginst Yhwach in the first place lol?
Is he going to convince Yhwach to disable the almighty, without even knowing what it is?

Nah he's gonna convince Yhwach to become his pal or minion, as tricking, being a conman, and even starting his own religion are his main things.

 

[Hellscream]

Because his TK is Class Y, beyond what Yhwach has in his profile in LS?

How can you powernull someone talking to you lol? That makes no sense.

Nah he's gonna convince Yhwach to become his pal or minion, as tricking, being a conman, and even starting his own religion are his main things.

And how is his TK being class Y relevant at all?
It's powernull for a reason, even if it was beyond class Y, it'd still get powernulled lol

Because it affects Yhwach, and the effects are things that he can see, and something he has influence over?
Like even without powernull, Yhwach just rewrites the future as to where he doesn't talk to him lol

Yeah, he's not doing any of that to yhwach.
"Charisma" in the first place is not going to influence a being that is capabale of altering and seeing an infinite amount of possibilities, if you believe it can prove it.
You're forgetting that any potential outcome of him "talking yhwach into becoming his lapdop" are all potential futures and possibilities that Yhwach can see and affect.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You have provided nothing that proves your claim, of bill stomping Yhwach

I actually did! Bill has Nature Type 5 NEP, which Yhwach has precisely 0 feats of interacting with, according to his profile! Meaning that he essentially cannot do anything to him!
I refuse to see how is that hard to understand.

 

[Hellscream]

I actually did! Bill has Nature Type 5 NEP, which Yhwach has precisely 0 feats of interacting with, according to his profile! Meaning that he essentially cannot do anything to him!
I refuse to see how is that hard to understand.

You actually didn't as his NEP type 5 is reliant on his form in the mindscape
and his form in the mindscape can't affect Yhwach lol.
I refuse to see how this is hard to understand

 

[StrymULTRA]

And how is his TK being class Y relevant at all?
It's powernull for a reason, even if it was beyond class Y, it'd still get powernulled lol

How does Yhwach's power null work again?

Mind sending some scans too?

Like even without powernull, Yhwach just rewrites the future as to where he doesn't talk to him lol

MFW Bill has Type 1 and 4 Acausality (and said Type 4 includes history as he's a natural inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, a place that lacks laws entirely, and said laws include even the ones that shape universes with different system of history).

You're forgetting that any potential outcome of him "talking yhwach into becoming his lapdop" are all potential futures and possibilities that Yhwach can see and affect.

Something Bill can also see (and said infinite futures in Bill's case include 11+2D Hypertimelines). Next?

and his form in the mindscape can't affect Yhwach lol.

Bill can indeed affect the real world in his Mindscape form, he couldn't at the time of Gravity Falls only because he was sealed away, and he had to wait for the seal to be undone.

 

[Hellscream]

How does Yhwach's power null work again?

Mind sending some scans too?

MFW Bill has Type 1 and 4 Acausality (and said Type 4 includes history as he's a natural inhabitant of the Nightmare Realm, a place that lacks laws entirely, and said laws include even the ones that shape universes with different system of history).

Something Bill can also see (and said infinite futures in Bill's case include 11+2D Hypertimelines). Next?

Bill can indeed affect the real world in his Mindscape form, he couldn't at the time of Gravity Falls only because he was sealed away, and he had to wait for the seal to be undone.

Here's his powernull, it's basically everything Yhwach sees, he understands and everything he understands will be unable to harm him in any way possible.
There's still the fate manip aspect

Acausality doesn't give any resistances, unless proven. Yhwach also has aca type 4 himself, and has layered precognition.

Whether bill can see it or not is irrelevant, as i explained 10 times before in order to win this fight, bill needs to affect Yhwach, and affecting Yhwach = going in his sphere of influence.

So can this form directly attack Yhwach from his mindscape form? i asked for that claim earlier and you said he wasn't able to

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

If Bill can’t interact with Yhwach just like he was sealed from Gravity Falls, then this fight cannot even happen. Also SBA does not assume this pretty sure.

If he can, NEP fully applies.

Can’t sit on both chairs.



EDIT: Also, literally, he can use Dimensional Travel to get to the place of fight in his true form if he needs to anyways.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Acausality doesn't give any precognition resistance, unless if proven. Yhwach also has aca type 4 himself, has layered precognition.

Ah

So can this form directly attack Yhwach from his mindscape form? i asked for that claim earlier and you said he wasn't able to

...I literally have said that he CAN

1. Bill can travel across the whole multiverse which is High 1-C.
2. Bill can send messages from outside the timeline.
3. His goons could throw things from the Nightmare Realm to Earth
4. My argument wasn't that he can attack from the mindscape, but that he can affect Yhwach from quite literally another n-dimensional universe that's outside Yhwach's range.

That and the fact that he could create an infinite loophole by just punching the ground

 

[Hellscream]

Circular atp, i've provided my arguments Cipher has no way to incap Yhwach, and Yhwach simply can't take him out due to range
Not going to make this a 10 page argument going over the same shit over and over

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Circular atp, i've provided my arguments Cipher has no way to incap Yhwach, and Yhwach simply can't take him out due to range
Not going to make this a 10 page argument going over the same shit over and over

Not circular, you just deny Bill’s NEP, which is the key, sorry.

Bill time stops or LS destroys easily.

 

[StrymULTRA]

TBH Yhwach just lol noping 1-B abilities is also pretty blatant NLF still.

But whatever.

 

[Hellscream]

Not circular, you just deny Bill’s NEP, which is the key, sorry.

Bill time stops or LS destroys easily.

For once, can you actually read the proposed arguments?
I've asked you for proof, that he can attack Yhwach from his true form, which is in the mindscape.
You haven't provided it.

You're claiming that in "SBA" he should be able to affect him as yhwach would have to fight solely his "true form" which is just blatantly false and is not how SBA works.
If his True form, which is where he gets his immo type 9 from, is located in a different dimension and is not the form in which he actually attacks / affects the beings from the real world in gravity falls is from then your entire argument is useless lol.

Now provide me with factual evidence that he can attack Yhwach with his "true form" in the real world, which you have not done so far.
You're making battle assumptions that are not applicable whatsoever.

Man is cooking a whole lotta nothing

 

[Hellscream]

TBH Yhwach just lol noping 1-B abilities is also pretty blatant NLF still.

But whatever.

what ability in question is 1-B?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Are Bills stuff all 1-B in potency? If so, Yhwach ain't power nulling anything.

Also, with the SI stuff, is Bills SI really better than Aizen's to assume it'd work on Yhwach?

 

[Hellscream]

Are Bills stuff all 1-B in potency? If so, Yhwach ain't power nulling anything.

Basically this, if everything he has is 1-B in potency then Yhwach can't powernull it yeah, he'd still be capabale of altering the future though

 

[StrymULTRA]

I already did prove evidence that Bill can affect real stuff from the Mindscape, for instance.

what ability in question is 1-B?

Pretty much all of them given that Bill Cipher is a being whose powers are based on Weirdness, the same thing that can affect the whole Gravity Falls cosmology and eventually destroy it if misused.

Also, with the SI stuff, is Bills SI really better than Aizen's to assume it'd work on Yhwach?

Yhwach doesn't resist SI on his profile unless I didn't check well.

So if you want to add SI resistance, now it'd be a good time because people can indeed have that on their profiles.

 

[Hellscream]

Clown ass match

 

[Hellscream]

Not circular, you just deny Bill’s NEP, which is the key, sorry.

Bill time stops or LS destroys easily.

Come debate me offsite, we can run composite gravity falls vs Yhwach

 

[StrymULTRA]

Clown ass match

As I said this is only for Top 15 and only wanted to make sure lmao.

Nothing personal here.

 

[Hellscream]

As I said this is only for Top 15 and only wanted to make sure lmao.

Nothing personal here.

No, this is literally a troll match, you're putting a being with 4D hax against a 1B smurf

 

[StrymULTRA]

No need to attack me when I've genuinely wanted to make sure, given Yhwach's super long wall of text.

Asking for this to get closed.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Closing for stomp.