Yami Yugi vs Kiyotaka Ayanokoji but in 5D CHESS (0-3-0)

[Undylan]

Why not? Decided to join the trend.

Basically, both Yami Yugi and Ayanokoji play a game of chess. But its a game of 5D Chess with Multiverse Time Travel.

Who can win against each other in a game of 5D chess? The game is also a shadow game as well.

Dark Yugi and current Kiyotaka keys are used.

Yami Yugi:

Ayanokouji Kiyotaka: 3

Incon:

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Following.

 

[RoggerReggor]

How good is Yugi Muto in chess?

Because... Kiyotaka is quite literally a chess god.

Childhood feats:
- Beat a number of chess professionals at the age of 7-8.

Year 1 Volume 11 Event Selection Exam feats:

• Was overpowering Arisu in a match where she was described to be above all the professionals in the White Room.
• Was able to predict many moves into the future and even predicted the patterns through which his own traps could be avoided.

and lastly...
- Was able to think above a chess engine, a group of personnel and beyond what any spectator could see and make a complex move. Professionals took 30 seconds to think of a move which could align with his own thinking and not be considered a careless one when they were thinking of fabricating his move.

And even if all of this is not enough, Kiyotaka can evolve mid-match and be better than what he already was seconds before.

 

[Imaginym]

How good is Yugi Muto in chess?

Pardon my pedantic-ness, please, but Yugi Muto & Yami Yugi, AKA Atem are different individuals.
One's a pharaoh from milennia ago, who was also "King of Games" & skilled at a variety of games. The other is a contemporary era nerdy Japanese high schooler who really likes games, tabletop ones especially.
By the end of the series, Yugi is proven to be Atem/Yami Yugi's superior, so that the King of Games can move on to the afterlife, but.... Once Duelist Kingdom starts, basically all the game focus shifts to the game of Duel Monsters, & that is indeed how their final showdown/test is carried out.

My point being that although Yugi should be very good at games in general -General enthusiast, lives with his grandpa who runs a game shop- & eventually sort of gains the "King of Games" title, the demonstratable skill in games in general he's shown is far more Duel Monsters-centric than Atem's, & a lot of Atem's/Yami Yugi's is quite limited, pre-DK aside. (He did play a variety of games.)

So their skill profiles do differ somewhat, I'd say.

Because... Kiyotaka is quite literally a chess god.

Childhood feats:
- Beat a number of chess professionals at the age of 7-8.

Year 1 Volume 11 Event Selection Exam feats:

• Was overpowering Arisu in a match where she was described to be above all the professionals in the White Room.
• Was able to predict many moves into the future and even predicted the patterns through which his own traps could be avoided.

and lastly...
- Was able to think above a chess engine, a group of personnel and beyond what any spectator could see and make a complex move. Professionals took 30 seconds to think of a move which could align with his own thinking and not be considered a careless one when they were thinking of fabricating his move.

And even if all of this is not enough, Kiyotaka can evolve mid-match and be better than what he already was seconds before.

Hmmm....

The Toei anime series covers the pre-DK stuff, & makes up some stuff of its own.

Yu-Gi-Oh! (1998 TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But CTRL+F-ing that for "Chess", the only thing that comes up is Capsule Monster Chess, which other than a similar board layout & initial piece positioning, is a radically different game from Chess.

List of Yu-Gi-Oh! chapters - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Likewise for here, even if it doesn't summarize ALL of the chapters.

What about the Yugioh Wiki itself? Well, there are two in fact of them, mostly due to schisms about policies & stuff, IIRC.

Chess

Chess is a board game played between two players. The game is played on an 8x8 checkered grid. Players are able to capture opposing pieces and win by forcing their opponent's King into a position where it is attacked and cannot escape, capture the attacking piece or block the attack. The pieces...

yugioh.fandom.com

Chess

Chess is a board game played between two players. The game is played on an 8x8 checkered grid. Players are able to capture opposing pieces and win by forcing their opponent's King into a position where it is attacked and cannot escape, capture the attacking piece or block the attack. The pieces...

yugipedia.com

But on this topic, both say almost the same things:

Spoiler: YGO Wikis excerpt

In the Yu-Gi-Oh! universe, Seto and Mokuba often played chess at their orphanage. Gozaburo Kaiba was a chess grandmaster. Seto challenged him to a game of chess, where if Seto won, Gozaburo would have to adopt Seto and Mokuba. In the manga, Seto won the game by cheating.[1] In the anime, Seto won because he had studied Gozaburo's strategies.[2]

In the Japanese anime when Kaiba was sent to an illusion of a war-struck city, Aaron offered to play a game of chess by etching the board in soil and using empty weapon cartridges as pieces. However they were interrupted as the area was bombed.[3]

In Yu-Gi-Oh! R, Reiko Kitamori uses chess themed "Puppet" monsters. A number of the "Archfiend" series are also based on chess pieces. Both sets of cards have support cards based on different chess moves and positions.

The game Capsule Monster Chess is partly based on chess.

In Yu-Gi-Oh! ARC-V, Jean Michel Roget has a fondness of the game.

It also mentions the Archfiends, an archetype, which, IIRC, did not come up until Yu-Gi-Oh! GX, which Yugi & the Pharaoh are mostly absent from.

In fact, going by what the Wikis say, KAIBA -Or maybe even Mokuba!- may be more experienced with chess than Yugi/Pharaoh, at least given their shown experience! (Even if much of that is from anime only content.)


Also, I'm surprised neither of his profiles cover the supposed ability of the Puzzle/Pharaoh to manipulate destiny to assure victory or whatever that was.
Not that that would help much in a no luck, practically solved, fully public information game like Chess.
Unless that extends to like, making his opponent make mistakes, lol. That or outside intervention are the only kinds of "luck" I can think of being involved in chess. Maybe influencing which versions of the rules they end up using/consulting for some reason, if that doesn't count as cheating?

 

[RoggerReggor]

Pardon my pedantic-ness, please, but Yugi Muto & Yami Yugi, AKA Atem are different individuals.
One's a pharaoh from milennia ago, who was also "King of Games" & skilled at a variety of games. The other is a contemporary era nerdy Japanese high schooler who really likes games, tabletop ones especially.
By the end of the series, Yugi is proven to be Atem/Yami Yugi's superior, so that the King of Games can move on to the afterlife, but.... Once Duelist Kingdom starts, basically all the game focus shifts to the game of Duel Monsters, & that is indeed how their final showdown/test is carried out.

My point being that although Yugi should be very good at games in general -General enthusiast, lives with his grandpa who runs a game shop- & eventually sort of gains the "King of Games" title, the demonstratable skill in games in general he's shown is far more Duel Monsters-centric than Atem's, & a lot of Atem's/Yami Yugi's is quite limited, pre-DK aside. (He did play a variety of games.)

So their skill profiles do differ somewhat, I'd say.

I would note that. Thanks.

Hmmm....

The Toei anime series covers the pre-DK stuff, & makes up some stuff of its own.

Yu-Gi-Oh! (1998 TV series) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As long as the author of the series is alright with adapting the stuff and manipulation of a little bit of information, I don't think there would much problems.

But CTRL+F-ing that for "Chess", the only thing that comes up is Capsule Monster Chess, which other than a similar board layout & initial piece positioning, is a radically different game from Chess.

I think that if both the games happen to have a mindset of strategic applications being a wincon, then it does benefit Yami Yugi here.

List of Yu-Gi-Oh! chapters - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Likewise for here, even if it doesn't summarize ALL of the chapters.

What about the Yugioh Wiki itself? Well, there are two in fact of them, mostly due to schisms about policies & stuff, IIRC.

Chess

Chess is a board game played between two players. The game is played on an 8x8 checkered grid. Players are able to capture opposing pieces and win by forcing their opponent's King into a position where it is attacked and cannot escape, capture the attacking piece or block the attack. The pieces...

yugioh.fandom.com

Chess

Chess is a board game played between two players. The game is played on an 8x8 checkered grid. Players are able to capture opposing pieces and win by forcing their opponent's King into a position where it is attacked and cannot escape, capture the attacking piece or block the attack. The pieces...

yugipedia.com

That does seem fair, using fandom wikis often proves to be somehow as credible as or sometimes more than the Wikipedia, both however happen to be public-written and published documentations.

canon information from the fandom wikis and Wikipedia itself.

I will note the canon information, though yes, given the shear amount of time it would take for me to be fully knowledgeable about Yami Yugi's chess skills, or his abilities and endeavors in similar games by reading the huge amount of information, I would appreciate if you or someone knowledgeable about the verse was to give a short rundown on his abilities.

The game Capsule Monster Chess is partly based on chess.

From what I can read from the wiki, Capsule Monster Chess does happen to be partly oriented with luck.

Although never stated to be rule, the monsters were always chosen at random. Levels ranged from 1 to 5.

So, luck can decide the wincon. I am also taking into the account that the Yami Yugi does have an ability of being good with games to the point of destiny manipulation and having a kind of luck with them, which I will address later on as well (I read the entire message before, I usually prefer to do it).

It also mentions the Archfiends, an archetype, which, IIRC, did not come up until Yu-Gi-Oh! GX, which Yugi & the Pharaoh are mostly absent from.

In fact, going by what the Wikis say, KAIBA -Or maybe even Mokuba!- may be more experienced with chess than Yugi/Pharaoh, at least given their shown experience! (Even if much of that is from anime only content.)

How much is their said experience? Is Yugi skilled to the point of being able to out-think a chess machine. Now, there's a catch with COTE as well.

In the light novel (Year 1 Volume 11 Event Selection Exam Final Round), we come to know that Tsukishiro had a significant number of personnel and a dedicated machine to analyze the moves of Kiyotaka:

In the anime, the play of Arisu and Kiyotaka (Season 3 Episode 11), we see that the number of personnel is presumably about 3 or higher:

Though yes, the anime had no mentions of there being any feats of Kiyotaka outthinking a chess machine/engine, the light novel which does happen to be more detailed and directly worked upon by the author does mention it, and certainly boosts Kiyotaka's feats in chess.

Also, I'm surprised neither of his profiles cover the supposed ability of the Puzzle/Pharaoh to manipulate destiny to assure victory or whatever that was.
Not that that would help much in a no luck, practically solved, fully public information game like Chess.
Unless that extends to like, making his opponent make mistakes, lol. That or outside intervention are the only kinds of "luck" I can think of being involved in chess. Maybe influencing which versions of the rules they end up using/consulting for some reason, if that doesn't count as cheating?

Chess doesn't happen to be a luck-based game, yes, it is more oriented with trying to have someone make a mistake or out-think them and play moves.

But yes, anything supernatural like manipulation of rules, or maybe even thinking of a character, if Yami Yugi does it often (or it wouldn't be applicable if he cannot) would count to be completely in the position of other side's wincons, and probably even a stomp.

 

[Imaginym]

I would note that. Thanks.

Happy to help!

As long as the author of the series is alright with adapting the stuff and manipulation of a little bit of information, I don't think there would much problems.

If you'll forgive my asking, which author do you mean? Kazuki Takahashi, who is the DM manga author, Toei who made the pre-DK anime, or NAS, who made the DM anime? Or the thread author here, maybe?

I think that if both the games happen to have a mindset of strategic applications being a wincon, then it does benefit Yami Yugi here.

That does seem fair, using fandom wikis often proves to be somehow as credible as or sometimes more than the Wikipedia, both however happen to be public-written and published documentations.

From what I can read from the wiki, Capsule Monster Chess does happen to be partly oriented with luck.

Yeah, IIRC, the "Capsule" part of the name comes from...?
Well, do you know where the term "Gacha" comes from? That part of the manga (& by extension, the Toei-only anime adaptation, which the main, NAS Studios adaptation did not cover.) is sort of related....

Spoiler: Me being an etymology nerd

To start with, "gacha" is from:
Japanese ガチャ (gacha), shortened form of ガチャポン (gachapon).
A ガチャ (gacha) is defined as:
1. Short for ガチャポン; a vending machine that sells random toys.
2. (slang) a lottery.

& ガチャポン (gachapon) is an alternative form of ガシャポン (“capsule toy machine”).

Likely from ガシャガシャ (gashagasha), an onomatopoeic word indicating noisy rattling, and ポンと (pon to, “pop, emerging suddenly”, adverb).

Both ガシャポン (gashapon) and ガチャポン (gachapon) are widely used for either the vending machines or the toys sold in them; both words are attested from around the same time, in the last decades of the twentieth century. The name ガシャポン (gashapon) appears in a patent application for plastic capsule vending machines filed by the Bandai corporation in 1982 and issued in 1984.

More to the point, in the manga, it's called Capsule Monsters because you get 'em at random from capsule machines. Like gumball machines. Put coin in, turn crank/nob/lever/whatever, & then pray luck/physics is on your side for what is basically convenience store approved gambling.

Of course, the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga's debut of Capsule Monsters at all predates most forms of Gacha by around a decade, more or less.

The point for the gameplay is this luck is on what units you get, but I don't recall if this adds actual luck elements to the game after players have chosen pieces themselves, unless we're counting information hidden from other players as luck. (Not entirely unreasonable, IMHO.)

(I read the entire message before, I usually prefer to do it).

Much appreciated! Hopefully I'm not unpleasantly verbose, lol!

I will note the canon information, though yes, given the shear amount of time it would take for me to be fully knowledgeable about Yami Yugi's chess skills, or his abilities and endeavors in similar games by reading the huge amount of information, I would appreciate if you or someone knowledgeable about the verse was to give a short rundown on his abilities.

How much is their said experience? Is Yugi skilled to the point of being able to out-think a chess machine.

IIRC, Yugi has been a game enthusiast since childhood.

There is 1 thing that's an oddity to me....

Yugi Muto (Manga)

Yugi Muto is the main protagonist of the original Yu-Gi-Oh! series. The modern reincarnation of the ancient Pharaoh Atem, he completes the Millennium Puzzle and gains a second personality, Dark Yugi, that takes the place of Atem's sealed spirit. The two personalities must now work together to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Genius Intelligence (It is claimed that completing the Millennium Puzzle alone requires high intelligence)

Spoiler: Stuff about how the Millennium Puzzle was solved

https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Millennium_Puzzle (The anime version.)
The puzzle is extremely complex and difficult to solve, having taken Yugi at least eight years to successfully assemble it.
Yami Yugi describes the power of the puzzle as "the power of unity", comparing a puzzle's pieces forming a whole to friends coming together. Yugi frequently credits the Millennium Puzzle with bringing him friendship with Joey Wheeler. Yugi originally used the phrase "Something that can be seen, yet cannot be seen" to describe the Millennium Puzzle before it was completed, since even though you can see the pieces, you can't see the whole puzzle since it is not complete.
Yugi showed the disassembled Millennium Puzzle to Téa Gardner and told her he did not know what the completed version looked like because he had not yet been able to solve it, but that it is "something you can show, but can't see".[1]

Joey Wheeler and Tristan Taylor taunted Yugi by taking the Puzzle from him, with Joey going as far as throwing a piece into a swimming pool. Trudge later declared himself to be Yugi's bodyguard and beat up Joey and Tristan to extort a payment from Yugi. However Yugi defended Joey and Tristan, resulting in Trudge beating him up too. Moved by Yugi's actions, Joey recovered the piece of the Puzzle he threw into the pool. Yugi solved the Puzzle shortly afterwards and came to believe that befriending Joey was the Puzzle granting his wish.[1]

Related scan of the manga linked in this Reddit comment.

Also, here, someone actually approximates the measurements & sizes of the puzzle & its pieces. Neat!

Millennium Puzzle (manga)

The Millennium Puzzle (千（せん）年（ねん）パッズル Sennen Pazzuru) is an item in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga. This is the original depiction of the Millennium Puzzle.

yugipedia.com

Spoiler: More on that topic

The act of putting the Millennium Puzzle's pieces back together was said to be extremely complex. Pieces need to be inserted in a particular order. At least one piece needs to be given a half turn after being inserted. The front center piece, which bears the Eye of Wadjet, is the last piece to be inserted.[3]

In addition to its mechanical complexity, the Puzzle can interfere with the mind of the person trying to solve it. It can range from simply making them unable to connect pieces in ways that seem intuitive[4] to driving the individual mad.[5] This is a means of allowing only chosen individuals to solve it.[6] However this obstacle can be overcome using a machine capable of following an algorithm that goes through assembly patterns.[7]

Given that the manga establishes there's mind shenanigans impeding solving the puzzle, I'm surprised we only note Yugi solving it as an Intelligence feat, especially when it took him 8 years, & when he solved it possibly being up to fate/destiny being manipulated, or more of the mind alterating abilities to make it easier.
The point is its a dubious Intelligence feat, IMHO. & also the Anime dialogue needs to be revisited for its justification. (If you're wondering why, it's because even between YGO Manga & the YGO NAS Anime, there are several differences like plot twists, anime-only arcs, characters, duels going differently, different scaling, etc. Normally, the manga would be primary canon because it's the original material.)

Anyway, you asked "How much is their said experience? Is Yugi skilled to the point of being able to out-think a chess machine." in response to me saying:
"In fact, going by what the Wikis say, KAIBA -Or maybe even Mokuba!- may be more experienced with chess than Yugi/Pharaoh, at least given their shown experience! (Even if much of that is from anime only content.)"

But the issue is Yugi never played against Kaiba... in chess, anyway.

Spoiler: Chess in YGO history

Also, for the manga:
Gozaburo was the original founder and CEO of KaibaCorp and a chess grandmaster. He visited an orphanage, hoping to adopt an heir. Here he met Seto, who challenged him to a game of chess, with the stipulation that he and his brother Mokuba would be adopted by Gozaburo if Seto won. Gozaburo laughed at first, but said that Seto was an interesting kid and accepted the challenge, which Seto won through cheating.[1]

Whereas for the anime:

Gozaburo became a famous chess champion, who won the World Championship and donated the prize of $100,000 to the orphanage where Seto and Mokuba lived. The brothers heard of him on TV, so Seto developed a plan to be adopted, studied everything that he could about chess and Gozaburo, and learned his way of thinking and strategies.[6]

When Gozaburo visited the orphanage, he gave toys to the kids, and on his way out, Seto challenged him to a game of chess, and told Gozaburo that if he refused, he would tell the press that he was scared of a little kid. Confident that he would not be beaten by a child, Gozaburo agreed to a single game with Seto, and stated the stipulation that if he won, Gozaburo would agree to adopt him along with his brother.[6] Seto had spent time studying Gozaburo's strategies and how to overcome them, and thus defeated him. Gozaburo had to keep his end of the bargain.[6]

The game of Chess that happens in episode 166 is... not very documented.
Without going for alternate means of watching the subbed episode (The scene isn't in the dub.), the best source I could find was a sub & dub comparison website specifically for YGO, listing the episode by its dub name "Flight of Fear - Part 1".

& as the Wiki mentions: 1. It was an illusion, which likely extends to the location for the game, Kaiba's kid opponent, & likely the bullets/empty weapon cartridges used as pieces themselves. 2. They were interrupted as the area was bombed. Seemingly very early.

In summary: Yugi has probably never played chess, or very little at all, with the closest we've SEEN him playing being Capsule Monster Chess. But that'd probably be enough for him to get good at it quickly, game nerd that he is.
Kaiba has played chess, but Yugi never played against Kaiba in chess.
Meanwhile, manga Kaiba might be good at chess, but the only time we know that he played it, he cheated at it because the stakes were getting adopted.

But anime Kaiba, paraphrasing the Wiki: at the same age (Same circumstances & stakes!) actually beat Gozaburo, a famous chess champion (Grandmaster in the manga.) after learning of him from TV before meeting him, then in his plan to be adopted, "studied everything that he could about chess & Gozaburo, & learned his way of thinking & strategies." & then challenged Gozaburo, threatening to tell the press Gozaburo (Gozaburo was a businessman primarily.) he was scared of a little kid if Gozaburo refused. Confident he wouldn't be beaten by a child, Gozaburo agreed, & Kaiba leveraged his learning & won.

Presuming that Kid Kaiba's success story isn't an English localization thing (Cheating is bad, kids! Studying is good!), this'd mean Kaiba is a far better gamer than Yugi... at chess, not Duel Monsters. (& only based on experience.)
(Also, as mentioned, Yugi being a gamer in general, & the pharaoh being "King of Games" might mean they have some skill?)

Now, there's a catch with COTE as well.

In the light novel (Year 1 Volume 11 Event Selection Exam Final Round), we come to know that Tsukishiro had a significant number of personnel and a dedicated machine to analyze the moves of Kiyotaka:

In the anime, the play of Arisu and Kiyotaka (Season 3 Episode 11), we see that the number of personnel is presumably about 3 or higher:

Though yes, the anime had no mentions of there being any feats of Kiyotaka outthinking a chess machine/engine, the light novel which does happen to be more detailed and directly worked upon by the author does mention it, and certainly boosts Kiyotaka's feats in chess.

Interesting!
Are they separate canons, especially for the Wiki's purposes?

It might be relevant whether or not Kiyotaka can outthink a chess machine/engine. Maybe, IDK?

But yes, anything supernatural like manipulation of rules, or maybe even thinking of a character, if Yami Yugi does it often (or it wouldn't be applicable if he cannot) would count to be completely in the position of other side's wincons, and probably even a stomp.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean here.
I presume you mean that if supernatural powers impeded the decision-making abilities of the opponent of Yugi/the Pharaoh, that would count against Yugi/Pharaoh, & thus, in this case, be in Kiyotaka's favor?

Sorry about how wordy I got here.

 

[Robo432343]

what elo is ayanakouji

 

[Robo432343]

also how good is the chess engine ayana faced?? that engine could have been playing at a beginner level

 

[Vzearr]

also how good is the chess engine ayana faced?? that engine could have been playing at a beginner level

Context makes me think it was a high level bot, I believe somebody was trying to beat him in a chess match. There is no reason to assume they would have used a low level bot, especially considering they were also using personnel.

 

[RoggerReggor]

If you'll forgive my asking, which author do you mean? Kazuki Takahashi, who is the DM manga author, Toei who made the pre-DK anime, or NAS, who made the DM anime? Or the thread author here, maybe?

Probably the one who writes the main canon.

Yeah, IIRC, the "Capsule" part of the name comes from...?
Well, do you know where the term "Gacha" comes from? That part of the manga (& by extension, the Toei-only anime adaptation, which the main, NAS Studios adaptation did not cover.) is sort of related....

Spoiler: Me being an etymology nerd

To start with, "gacha" is from:
Japanese ガチャ (gacha), shortened form of ガチャポン (gachapon).
A ガチャ (gacha) is defined as:
1. Short for ガチャポン; a vending machine that sells random toys.
2. (slang) a lottery.

& ガチャポン (gachapon) is an alternative form of ガシャポン (“capsule toy machine”).

Likely from ガシャガシャ (gashagasha), an onomatopoeic word indicating noisy rattling, and ポンと (pon to, “pop, emerging suddenly”, adverb).

Both ガシャポン (gashapon) and ガチャポン (gachapon) are widely used for either the vending machines or the toys sold in them; both words are attested from around the same time, in the last decades of the twentieth century. The name ガシャポン (gashapon) appears in a patent application for plastic capsule vending machines filed by the Bandai corporation in 1982 and issued in 1984.

I read the entire Japanese classes lol.

More to the point, in the manga, it's called Capsule Monsters because you get 'em at random from capsule machines. Like gumball machines. Put coin in, turn crank/nob/lever/whatever, & then pray luck/physics is on your side for what is basically convenience store approved gambling.

Of course, the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga's debut of Capsule Monsters at all predates most forms of Gacha by around a decade, more or less.

I see.

The point for the gameplay is this luck is on what units you get, but I don't recall if this adds actual luck elements to the game after players have chosen pieces themselves, unless we're counting information hidden from other players as luck. (Not entirely unreasonable, IMHO.)

It might be related to luck if it happens to have a superiority between pieces like consider card, a game which happens to be based on a player's skill of choosing cards one by one and at the correct time, but they will be outshined if lady luck happens to be on a bad mood, and if they happen to have a comparatively very worse lot.

Much appreciated! Hopefully I'm not unpleasantly verbose, lol!

I am a student IRL and have to write a lot of theses, so believe me, this is much less than being verbose.

IIRC, Yugi has been a game enthusiast since childhood.

There is 1 thing that's an oddity to me....

Yugi Muto (Manga)

Yugi Muto is the main protagonist of the original Yu-Gi-Oh! series. The modern reincarnation of the ancient Pharaoh Atem, he completes the Millennium Puzzle and gains a second personality, Dark Yugi, that takes the place of Atem's sealed spirit. The two personalities must now work together to...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Genius Intelligence (It is claimed that completing the Millennium Puzzle alone requires high intelligence)

Spoiler: Stuff about how the Millennium Puzzle was solved

https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Millennium_Puzzle (The anime version.)
The puzzle is extremely complex and difficult to solve, having taken Yugi at least eight years to successfully assemble it.
Yami Yugi describes the power of the puzzle as "the power of unity", comparing a puzzle's pieces forming a whole to friends coming together. Yugi frequently credits the Millennium Puzzle with bringing him friendship with Joey Wheeler. Yugi originally used the phrase "Something that can be seen, yet cannot be seen" to describe the Millennium Puzzle before it was completed, since even though you can see the pieces, you can't see the whole puzzle since it is not complete.
Yugi showed the disassembled Millennium Puzzle to Téa Gardner and told her he did not know what the completed version looked like because he had not yet been able to solve it, but that it is "something you can show, but can't see".[1]https://yugipedia.com/wiki/Millennium_Puzzle#cite_note-ep_3-1

Joey Wheeler and Tristan Taylor taunted Yugi by taking the Puzzle from him, with Joey going as far as throwing a piece into a swimming pool. Trudge later declared himself to be Yugi's bodyguard and beat up Joey and Tristan to extort a payment from Yugi. However Yugi defended Joey and Tristan, resulting in Trudge beating him up too. Moved by Yugi's actions, Joey recovered the piece of the Puzzle he threw into the pool. Yugi solved the Puzzle shortly afterwards and came to believe that befriending Joey was the Puzzle granting his wish.[1]

Related scan of the manga linked in this Reddit comment.

Also, here, someone actually approximates the measurements & sizes of the puzzle & its pieces. Neat!

Millennium Puzzle (manga)

The Millennium Puzzle (千（せん）年（ねん）パッズル Sennen Pazzuru) is an item in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga. This is the original depiction of the Millennium Puzzle.

yugipedia.com

I see. So, to summarize, the Millenium Puzzle happens to be an extremely difficult puzzle which can take people years to solve. Though Yugi took years to do it as well, he supposedly is better than others as other would have probably taken a much higher time. I believe that's the context, upon how much I can remember about Yu-Gi-Oh! to this point.

Spoiler: More on that topic

The act of putting the Millennium Puzzle's pieces back together was said to be extremely complex. Pieces need to be inserted in a particular order. At least one piece needs to be given a half turn after being inserted. The front center piece, which bears the Eye of Wadjet, is the last piece to be inserted.[3]

In addition to its mechanical complexity, the Puzzle can interfere with the mind of the person trying to solve it. It can range from simply making them unable to connect pieces in ways that seem intuitive[4] to driving the individual mad.[5] This is a means of allowing only chosen individuals to solve it.[6] However this obstacle can be overcome using a machine capable of following an algorithm that goes through assembly patterns.[7]

Given that the manga establishes there's mind shenanigans impeding solving the puzzle, I'm surprised we only note Yugi solving it as an Intelligence feat, especially when it took him 8 years, & when he solved it possibly being up to fate/destiny being manipulated, or more of the mind alterating abilities to make it easier.
The point is its a dubious Intelligence feat, IMHO. & also the Anime dialogue needs to be revisited for its justification. (If you're wondering why, it's because even between YGO Manga & the YGO NAS Anime, there are several differences like plot twists, anime-only arcs, characters, duels going differently, different scaling, etc. Normally, the manga would be primary canon because it's the original material.)

I am confused about it, so, from the information, does it happen to be entirely Yami Yugi's abilities related to intellect or it also includes the luck element?

Anyway, you asked "How much is their said experience? Is Yugi skilled to the point of being able to out-think a chess machine." in response to me saying:
"In fact, going by what the Wikis say, KAIBA -Or maybe even Mokuba!- may be more experienced with chess than Yugi/Pharaoh, at least given their shown experience! (Even if much of that is from anime only content.)"

But the issue is Yugi never played against Kaiba... in chess, anyway.

So, Yugi does happen to be experienced with puzzles and mind-related games to be a competitive element, I see.

Spoiler: Chess in YGO history

Also, for the manga:
Gozaburo was the original founder and CEO of KaibaCorp and a chess grandmaster. He visited an orphanage, hoping to adopt an heir. Here he met Seto, who challenged him to a game of chess, with the stipulation that he and his brother Mokuba would be adopted by Gozaburo if Seto won. Gozaburo laughed at first, but said that Seto was an interesting kid and accepted the challenge, which Seto won through cheating.[1]

Whereas for the anime:

Gozaburo became a famous chess champion, who won the World Championship and donated the prize of $100,000 to the orphanage where Seto and Mokuba lived. The brothers heard of him on TV, so Seto developed a plan to be adopted, studied everything that he could about chess and Gozaburo, and learned his way of thinking and strategies.[6]

When Gozaburo visited the orphanage, he gave toys to the kids, and on his way out, Seto challenged him to a game of chess, and told Gozaburo that if he refused, he would tell the press that he was scared of a little kid. Confident that he would not be beaten by a child, Gozaburo agreed to a single game with Seto, and stated the stipulation that if he won, Gozaburo would agree to adopt him along with his brother.[6] Seto had spent time studying Gozaburo's strategies and how to overcome them, and thus defeated him. Gozaburo had to keep his end of the bargain.[6]

The game of Chess that happens in episode 166 is... not very documented.
Without going for alternate means of watching the subbed episode (The scene isn't in the dub.), the best source I could find was a sub & dub comparison website specifically for YGO, listing the episode by its dub name "Flight of Fear - Part 1".

& as the Wiki mentions: 1. It was an illusion, which likely extends to the location for the game, Kaiba's kid opponent, & likely the bullets/empty weapon cartridges used as pieces themselves. 2. They were interrupted as the area was bombed. Seemingly very early.

In summary: Yugi has probably never played chess, or very little at all, with the closest we've SEEN him playing being Capsule Monster Chess. But that'd probably be enough for him to get good at it quickly, game nerd that he is.
Kaiba has played chess, but Yugi never played against Kaiba in chess.
Meanwhile, manga Kaiba might be good at chess, but the only time we know that he played it, he cheated at it because the stakes were getting adopted.

Tbh, to draw a fair comparison between Yugi and Kiyotaka, we need to know about how good Yugi is at learning things.

From what I can make out of all of what you wrote and mentioned sources from, Yugi is not experienced with chess, but a game which is related to chess, and that happens to be a good source of inspiration and learning for him to be good at chess as well, which is fine and seems likely the case for someone as smart as Yugi.

Kaiba, as you mentioned, happens to be good with chess, but it isn't mentioned how good he is, so going by that, Yugi never having played against Kaiba would mean that Yugi lacks the experience of playing against a good and well-trained person in chess. This might call for Yugi needing some preparation time to prepare for the matchup, though that itself may not be needed if Yugi happens to be very good at adapting and learning stuff, and can become very good in the matter of moments, and that too, considerably.

But anime Kaiba, paraphrasing the Wiki: at the same age (Same circumstances & stakes!) actually beat Gozaburo, a famous chess champion (Grandmaster in the manga.) after learning of him from TV before meeting him, then in his plan to be adopted, "studied everything that he could about chess & Gozaburo, & learned his way of thinking & strategies." & then challenged Gozaburo, threatening to tell the press Gozaburo (Gozaburo was a businessman primarily.) he was scared of a little kid if Gozaburo refused. Confident he wouldn't be beaten by a child, Gozaburo agreed, & Kaiba leveraged his learning & won.

Presuming that Kid Kaiba's success story isn't an English localization thing (Cheating is bad, kids! Studying is good!), this'd mean Kaiba is a far better gamer than Yugi... at chess, not Duel Monsters. (& only based on experience.)
(Also, as mentioned, Yugi being a gamer in general, & the pharaoh being "King of Games" might mean they have some skill?)

How good is Kaiba himself at learning? Can he confidently beat someone who can adapt fast to the point of learning things instantly and perfect it if they knew only some basics, or things related to it? Or does he possess the abilities to go against someone who can evolve very fast and rapidly to the point of geniuses being unable to catch up to him after 2-3 games, though they performed better before?

Interesting!
Are they separate canons, especially for the Wiki's purposes?

Not really. There's a light novel and we use other sources which the author agrees to be relevant to make the composition of the profile.

It might be relevant whether or not Kiyotaka can outthink a chess machine/engine. Maybe, IDK?

Yes, it's a great chess feat.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you mean here.
I presume you mean that if supernatural powers impeded the decision-making abilities of the opponent of Yugi/the Pharaoh, that would count against Yugi/Pharaoh, & thus, in this case, be in Kiyotaka's favor?

No, I mean that it would be against Kiyotaka, as it would obstruct his thinking.

 

[RoggerReggor]

what elo is ayanakouji

There's no specific disclosure on his ELO/rating, but I can say that it's very high, and given his abilities, he can rapidly improve his chess abilities by observing others as well, via his Accelerated Development.

Kiyotaka mentioned that he had fought with a number of White Room instructors, who all happened to be professionals at chess. Now, in Year 1 Volume 11, he was fighting against Arisu, whom he described to be better than all of those instructors.

I had learned how to play chess in the White Room when I was very young. I had played against a number of instructors considered to be professionals. But she was better than any of them.

(Year 1 Volume 11)

Now, it might be that you may consider a professional to be just anyone who is connected with a job that needs a high level of training and is skilled in that thing. A National Master like Mattew O'Brien considers the professional ELO to be 2400 (you can find his comment in that discussion by searching for it using the Find feature in your browser), but again, saying that he instantly was that good can be a stretch, so I think I would also prove that.

Now, White Room has a goal of making a perfect individual.

From now on, perhaps quite a few children will be sacrificed to the research, but that's okay. It's a small price to pay when the end result is a perfect human being. The goal is to train 100 people and make 100 people perfect.

(Volume 0)

To create perfection, it is ideal to create opportunities for children to practice playing against opponents with greater and greater abilities. Like, once, you could be fighting someone with a 1000 ELO (which is to less to be even an amateur, much less to be a professional or be considered a great player), then against someone with 1500, and then progressively increase it.

White Room in the start brought a coach who trained Olympic athletes, and that, there goal was to bring more and more geniuses in their fields so that they could create the best experiments.

In addition, we've prepared professionals in the field of studies, such as an obstetrician/gynecologist, an expert in ecology, and a coach who has trained Olympic athletes.
Of course, this is just the beginning. From here, we've expanded our reach and brought in geniuses in all kinds of fields to focus on the training of the children.

(Volume 0)

Seeing this, bringing a 2500 ELO chess master, or even a grandmaster doesn't seem like a very slim possibility, considering the obsession of White Room with creating perfect individuals.

So, for the minimum, I would say Arisu is in the 2000s (and higher in that), Kiyotaka obviously outshines her in all aspects so his ELO would be much better. Though I would say that making a comparison with just ELOs can be a bad thing for Kiyotaka and that, he specializes in learning and adapting to stuff. If he had never got to observe professionals, then he would have never risen to that level. He also improved mid-game and went from being unable to get Arisu easily laid in a trap to outperforming a chess engine.

also how good is the chess engine ayana faced?? that engine could have been playing at a beginner level

It definitely isn't beginner level. While there can be an argument about how it should be a high-performing engine is questionable are there are no mentions, it really gets answered by just common sense.

First of all, they are in a government funded school and the engine was getting bought by them, also the personnel who would have specialized in chess were also brought by them, so it would be just not sensible and unrelated with the context if they were to buy a low-performing engine.

Secondly, they were playing at professional level, so it definitely is a high-level engine.

 

[Imaginym]

I see. So, to summarize, the Millenium Puzzle happens to be an extremely difficult puzzle which can take people years to solve. Though Yugi took years to do it as well, he supposedly is better than others as other would have probably taken a much higher time. I believe that's the context, upon how much I can remember about Yu-Gi-Oh! to this point.

Something like that.
&/or he became able to solve it when he did because of fate/destiny/mind manipulating magic.

I am confused about it, so, from the information, does it happen to be entirely Yami Yugi's abilities related to intellect or it also includes the luck element?

Yami Yugi = The Spirit of the Pharaoh, AKA Atem, AKA Pharaoh
Yugi Muto = The high schooler who solved the puzzle

If superpowers were involved in the Puzzle's difficulty, it COULD have been Atem's doing, but IIRC, his spirit may've been partially or wholely dormant before solving it.
So any powers involved in the puzzle's difficulty might not be the Pharaoh's decision to use, at least not consciously. Or maybe they were? I don't remember the details well.

But the puzzles' power are his powers. He is the spirit of it.

Solving the puzzle -However much of a feat that may be given the supernatural elements- would be a feat for Yugi Muto's intelligence. His mind & the pharaoh's are technically separate, even if they do share a lot of things with each other.

But based on what I've checked in the manga, I'm not sure how much supernatural/fate/luck stuff was involved in solving the puzzle, though it does have stuff to make it difficult.

So, Yugi does happen to be experienced with puzzles and mind-related games to be a competitive element, I see.

If we're considering the experience of the Pharaoh, Atem, AKA Yami Yugi, it may be worth it to go over the variety of games played in the early manga, which, as said, the Toei Anime covered, but not the NAS Anime.

Many of those games, Yugi participated in, at least before the Spirit of the Puzzle (Atem) made the games become Shadow Games/Penalty Games.
During that time, Yugi generally did not stay conscious when Yami Yugi took over, including for most Shadow Games/Penalty Games & hardly knew of the puzzle's spirit at all.

For an idea of what games those parts cover, you could go through the summaries here.

These may provide more detailed information:

School (arc)

Section 1: School arc (第（だい）一章（しょう） 学（がく）園（えん）編（へん） Daiisshō Gakuen hen) is the first arc in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga.

yugipedia.com

Death-T (arc)

Section 2: Death-T arc (第（だい）二章（しょう） ＤＥＡＴＨ（デス）－Ｔ（テイー）編（へん） Dainishō Desu-Teī hen) is the second arc in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga.

yugipedia.com

Duelist Kingdom (manga arc)

Section 4: Duelist Kingdom arc (第（だい）四章（しょう） 決闘者（デュエリスト）の王（おう）国（こく）編（へん） Daiyonshō Dyuerisuto no Ōkoku-hen) is a story arc in the Yu-Gi-Oh! manga.

yugipedia.com

Tbh, to draw a fair comparison between Yugi and Kiyotaka, we need to know about how good Yugi is at learning things.

A good question. I might assume he's got some form of remarkable ability as a protagonist to improve in skill rapidly.

Though, most of Duel Monsters (The card game centric portion that starts around Duelist Kingdom.) takes place over 2 to 3 years, with the movie that's canon to the manga, Dark Side of Dimensions happening around Yugi's graduation.
So I'm not sure if he improves rapidly.
Proof of that is probably something that requires combing for statements I'm not even sure would be present. Maybe something to do with the Egyptian Gods or the at-the-time, new rules of the Battle City tournament??

If it's any consolation, he consistently beats or matches Kaiba, even being acknowledge as on par with him by the final duel, as opposed to the Pharaoh Kaiba usually is rivals with.
Kaiba's only profile (An anime one.) has this Intelligence justification:

Spoiler: Long Intelligence justification

Intelligence: Extraordinary Genius (One of the most accomplished and formidable businessmen in the world. A child prodigy and polymorphic genius, he excels at virtually any skill or area of study he applies himself to. With natural aptitude and raw talent, he has both successful reinvented and ran his worldwide cooperation while also pursued his passion for games, having spent years as an undefeated world champion in various games including Duel Monsters and chess. In addition to his shrewd business acumen and gaming aptitude, while having no known degrees, Kaiba is incredibly skilled with science and technology, most noticeably programming and engineering. He specializes mainly in computer software programming and building cutting edge technology software and hardware such as the development of KaibaCorp's high-tech Duel Disks and advanced Solid Vision technology, which is literally hologram technology. He invented a method to travel between dimensions so that he could duel his rival in the 3000 year past, since his rival moved on to the afterlife. He also invented a device that prevented an opponent from magically sending him to a lesser dimension. He is a very advanced hacker, skillfully making his way through the Duelist Kingdom network.)

So there might be some comparability, though Yugi's not a tech genius, businessman, nor a chess champion who studied & beat another chess champion as a kid like Kaiba (Although Kaiba won that by cheating in the manga.), so how much relevant comparability there is is questionable....

From what I can make out of all of what you wrote and mentioned sources from, Yugi is not experienced with chess, but a game which is related to chess, and that happens to be a good source of inspiration and learning for him to be good at chess as well, which is fine and seems likely the case for someone as smart as Yugi.

Reasonable.

Kaiba, as you mentioned, happens to be good with chess, but it isn't mentioned how good he is, so going by that, Yugi never having played against Kaiba would mean that Yugi lacks the experience of playing against a good and well-trained person in chess.

Technically, they've played against each other multiple times. Just not in chess.

How good is Kaiba himself at learning? Can he confidently beat someone who can adapt fast to the point of learning things instantly and perfect it if they knew only some basics, or things related to it? Or does he possess the abilities to go against someone who can evolve very fast and rapidly to the point of geniuses being unable to catch up to him after 2-3 games, though they performed better before?

I'm not too sure about that off the top of my head. Other than the feat of studying Gozaburo, not too sure.
I recall he, IIRC, put great effort into making a program to study Yugi's deck & Exodia, but IIRC, he still didn't understand how he lost. IIRC, it's meant to be more proof about destiny or magic or such, a conclusion which he resented.

 

[RoggerReggor]

(the message)

So, from how much I can understand, these are the main points (and probably enough to draw conclusions) and if we were to compare the characters, I will give and handle out the points to them in the format of (Ayanokouji Kiyotaka's points - Yami Yugi's points).

1. Knowledge: Chess knowledge matters a lot in a game of chess. Grandmasters can be not smarter than their opponent but still outthink them massively just upon them being in numerous situations in chess. Kiyotaka possesses a very high level of knowledge about chess, to the point where he can out-think a chess engine, think of entire game and predict moves, and has beaten a number of professionals. In Arisu's words, he overwhelmed them. Yugi on the other hand, is not that experienced with chess, or presumably has never played it. However, just for the sake of match, it would be obvious that Yugi would possess some knowledge about chess, including the move-set, board and basic rules. But yes, to compare the knowledge, it wouldn't be that close, so Kiyotaka definitely gets this one. (1 - 0)
2. Thinking Speed: Chess is also dependent on time, and a person's thinking speed and formulation time matters a lot in a game of chess, as they are also racing against time. Kiyotaka, for the record, in one volume could process all his memories and look out for Arisu's presence in them. This would include memories from his lifetime as he has the ability to think clearly from his childhood (@TheHuntsman1001 prepared a document for explaining the feat. It is not wiki-accepted as wiki doesn't take extra-justifications, but the document is based on canon information, and the ability of Kiyotaka to rapidly process and think about stuff and also not forget anything).
   Yami Yugi on the other hand is supposedly better and very good and fast at solving puzzles (though I remember it was mentioned that he wasn't the one who did it, but yes, it is still a feat and I presume he upscales from that. So, he has the ability to solve a puzzle which took many years for others but for him, just a mere 8 years. Considering the complexity of the puzzle and how much of data is mentioned, it took many years to lifetime for people, and they still couldn't solve it. For an estimate, average human lifespan is about 75 years, him being able to do it in 8 years would mean he has the thinking speed 10 times better than that of a normal person at the least.
   But, if this was to be compared to Kiyotaka, it is almost nothing, even if he possessed 100 times better thinking speed, Kiyotaka would still be much better, as he could process a large part of his noticed life in mere instants, many calculations suggest that he's around millions to trillions times better than a normal person, though they happen to be not so reliant, but it is easy to say that he is incredibly good at it. (2-0)
3. Strategizing: Kiyotaka is a master strategist. He was able to think of the Year 2 Volume 7 strategy by just knowing Nagumo's presences in the Student Council room, created an opportunity for Ryuuen and others to be there, and expelled Takuya. He created a multi-layered trap to trap Kei and also achieve his goal by terrorizing Ryuuen in Year 1 Volume 7. Yami doesn't happen to have something on the same degree, or even close as he's primarily not known for playing psychological games with others. (3-0)
4. Learning Ability: Learning is very important, as it can help a person to improve upon their techniques mid-game and become better than previously. Yami Yugi possesses an incredible learning ability, as said before, he can learn things very fast, and can also solve a puzzle very fast with primary knowledge, he takes a lesser amount of time than other game experts to learn things and is a good learner.
   But again, let's talk about Kiyotaka. In Year 2 Volume 8, Kiyotaka noticed Kitou and Ryuuen's movements, mimicked them, and instantly learnt skiing and above what even Ryuuen and Kitou knew, by connecting it with his own knowledge and improving above it. In Year 2 Volume 11, he learnt archery by watching tutorial videos, and got 4 perfect shots out of 5 and easily won against Ichika Amasawa, who is also another White Room subject and a very fast learner, who learnt archery to a high level by practicing it for just a day. In Volume 0, it is mentioned that Kiyotaka was very slow at learning things first, but after a few retries he could easily cover the wide gap left between him and others, and become better than even the other subjects who were very fast at learning. (4 - 0)
   To explain White Room, it's simply a facility which aims to make perfect individuals and train children from birth. Information about it may also be found on the verse page.
   So, in learning ability as well, I believe Kiyotaka is better and much better at taking raw information, connecting it with his own knowledge, and mimick someone.

(All of these are accepted on Kiyotaka's profile, so you can take a look at it for scans.)

So, I will be voting Kiyotaka based on this. Though yes, I am open to changing my opinion when there are enough and convincing arguments for Yami Yugi's part.

 

[Imaginym]

So, from how much I can understand, these are the main points (and probably enough to draw conclusions) and if we were to compare the characters, I will give and handle out the points to them in the format of (Ayanokouji Kiyotaka's points - Yami Yugi's points).

1. Thinking Speed: ...Yami Yugi on the other hand is supposedly better and very good and fast at solving puzzles (though I remember it was mentioned that he wasn't the one who did it, but yes, it is still a feat and I presume he upscales from that.

Yami Yugi indeed did not solve the puzzle, because Yami Yugi is the spirit who was mostly dormant inside the puzzle until Yugi Muto solved it.

1. So, he has the ability to solve a puzzle which took many years for others but for him, just a mere 8 years. Considering the complexity of the puzzle and how much of data is mentioned, it took many years to lifetime for people, and they still couldn't solve it.

Well, the puzzle was only unearthed by Yugi's grandpa from a tomb after being there untouched for thousands of years. This happened some time in the 1900s.
So it was only found but unsolved for some decades.
In Ancient Egypt, it was known as the Millennium Pendant before it got put into the pieces (Under circumstances which I do not recall.) & became known as the Millennium Puzzle from then on.

So of the thousands of years it's existed, it's only been found by humans as a puzzle for some decades, & how Yugi found it sitting in his grandpa's stuff in the shop implies it wasn't getting much attention, then, so who's to say how much grandpa even tried to solve it.

1. For an estimate, average human lifespan is about 75 years, him being able to do it in 8 years would mean he has the thinking speed 10 times better than that of a normal person at the least.

Arguable, but okay.

1. Strategizing: Kiyotaka is a master strategist. He was able to think of the Year 2 Volume 7 strategy by just knowing Nagumo's presences in the Student Council room, created an opportunity for Ryuuen and others to be there, and expelled Takuya. He created a multi-layered trap to trap Kei and also achieve his goal by terrorizing Ryuuen in Year 1 Volume 7. Yami doesn't happen to have something on the same degree, or even close as he's primarily not known for playing psychological games with others. (3-0)

"or even close as he's primarily not known for playing psychological games with others."
Pardon?
NOT KNOWN for playing psychological games with others?
The bulk of the first several dozen chapters are Yugi Muto playing a variety of games, & in most of them, getting possessed unaware of it where Yami Yugi takes over, often making them into Shadow Games, with Penalty Games for the loser, usually because the opponent "deserved" it.
& Yami Yugi's title was "King of Games", which Yugi Muto eventually took from him.

Admittedly, a lot of the Shadow Games didn't involve psychology, even with their supernatural effects, even if the Penalty Games did often relate their punishments to the loser's psyche.

So, I will be voting Kiyotaka based on this. Though yes, I am open to changing my opinion when there are enough and convincing arguments for Yami Yugi's part.

I have no other opinions on the other things in your recent post.
Though there may be a case for him learning well based on Duel Monsters (the card game) stuff like statements or such, but there's often like, months or other long periods between various events, with the manga's canon taking about 2 to 3 years in-universe. So it might not be the fastest learning.

Just waiting for your response(s) on the matters I've brought up in this post.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Yami Yugi indeed did not solve the puzzle, because Yami Yugi is the spirit who was mostly dormant inside the puzzle until Yugi Muto solved it.

I see. Thanks for the clarification. So, it is feat for Yami Yugi or not?

Well, the puzzle was only unearthed by Yugi's grandpa from a tomb after being there untouched for thousands of years. This happened some time in the 1900s.
So it was only found but unsolved for some decades.
In Ancient Egypt, it was known as the Millennium Pendant before it got put into the pieces (Under circumstances which I do not recall.) & became known as the Millennium Puzzle from then on.

Alright.

So of the thousands of years it's existed, it's only been found by humans as a puzzle for some decades, & how Yugi found it sitting in his grandpa's stuff in the shop implies it wasn't getting much attention, then, so who's to say how much grandpa even tried to solve it.

Okay, so is there anyone who is smart, has tried to solve the Millenium puzzle and ultimately failed?

Arguable, but okay.

I pretty much tried to do the "8/75 = what?" thing, but yes, I tried to do the 10 times "at the least" argument for now.

"or even close as he's primarily not known for playing psychological games with others."
Pardon?
NOT KNOWN for playing psychological games with others?
The bulk of the first several dozen chapters are Yugi Muto playing a variety of games, & in most of them, getting possessed unaware of it where Yami Yugi takes over, often making them into Shadow Games, with Penalty Games for the loser, usually because the opponent "deserved" it.
& Yami Yugi's title was "King of Games", which Yugi Muto eventually took from him.

By psychological games, I meant using Social Influencing of high levels by manipulating people, deceiving them or causing any psychological effects as such. By psychological games, I didn't mean simply playing a game which involved mind usage, I am sorry for being unclear with my words.

Admittedly, a lot of the Shadow Games didn't involve psychology, even with their supernatural effects, even if the Penalty Games did often relate their punishments to the loser's psyche.

I guess so that can be slid.

I have no other opinions on the other things in your recent post.
Though there may be a case for him learning well based on Duel Monsters (the card game) stuff like statements or such, but there's often like, months or other long periods between various events, with the manga's canon taking about 2 to 3 years in-universe. So it might not be the fastest learning.

Just waiting for your response(s) on the matters I've brought up in this post.

Ok.

His learning is definitely really good, but Kiyotaka is just very observant and does things "almost instantly" then doing them in relatively smaller amount of time or something as such. Though that might be just my opinion.

 

[Imaginym]

I see. Thanks for the clarification. So, it is feat for Yami Yugi or not?

Unless Yami Yugi while semi-dormant as the spirit of the puzzle used the magic to make solving the puzzle easier for Yugi Muto when Yugi Muto was "ready" to solve it, it's probably not much of a feat for Yami Yugi.
The two are usually separate minds; Before Yugi Muto was aware Yami Yugi even existed, as I said, Yami Yugi usually manifested by possessing Yugi Muto's body, & the events of these possessions were often not remembered for Yugi Muto.

When they dueled Pegasus, a mind reader, they realized to play by not looking at their cards, even those they just drew, & trusting that they knew what their partner would do & their partner knew what they would do. That way, when they switched to the other mind a moment later, Pegasus wouldn't be able to read their mind because the active player wouldn't have any memory/knowledge of what the previous player did. Yugi wouldn't KNOW for sure what Atem played face-down, nor would Atem know for sure what Yugi played face-down, for example. "Mind shuffle" they called it.

Okay, so is there anyone who is smart, has tried to solve the Millenium puzzle and ultimately failed?

Possibly Yugi's grandpa? He is a game shop owner, & a veteran duelist.
Technically, the one who originally found the puzzle also happened to be a British Archaeologist... but then that was retconned to be Yugi's grandpa, Solomon/Sugoroku Muto.

He was much younger when he found it, to the point his currently pure grey hair was blonde then. So there is time he could have tried to solve it.
But we don't know if they did.

There was also Seto Kaiba, sort of?
The end of the Duel Monsters manga has all of the Millennium Items returned to the slab & the pharaoh/Atem/Yami Yugi moves on to the afterlife. But the story is continued from by the Dark Side of the Dimensions movie.

Some excerpts:

Spoiler: Excerpts about Manga Kaiba and the Manga Millennium Puzzle

In another effort, he commissioned an excavation at the Shrine of the Underworld to retrieve the pieces of the Millennium Puzzle. After the puzzle had been recovered, Kaiba traveled to the site, where the puzzle was being scanned by a computer.
Although it took Yugi Mutou eight years to solve the Millennium Puzzle, Kaiba had a computer in his space station perform the reconstruction, with an estimate of a few hours to complete. The machine reported two pieces were missing, which Kaiba realized Aigami must have stolen.[55]
Kaiba approached Yugi at a crossing and demanded that he take part in a Kaiba Land exhibition for his new Duel Disk model. He showed Yugi the near-reassembled Millennium Puzzle and informed him of his goal is to face "the other Yugi", deeming Yugi alone to be of little interest to him.[55]
He disregarded Yugi's arguments about the Duel being pointless and Atem no longer being inside the puzzle, until Yugi demonstrated it by inserting the last two pieces.
Yugi and Kaiba teamed up to Duel Aigami in a Shadow Game. Kaiba was defeated, but before disappearing, he gave the Millennium Puzzle to Yugi and said before dissipating, "Bring him back, Yugi". Kaiba returned after Yugi, having successfully reincarnated Atem momentarily, defeated Aigami. Kaiba expressed interest when Yugi mentioned seeing Atem. He remarked, "I said he'd be back. Hate to say I told you so, but, 'told you so". When Yugi exclaims that Kaiba never stopped believing, Kaiba mentioned, "You have your bond with him, and I have mine." As Yugi looks at him with surprise, Kaiba leaves, saying "Take care, Yugi, until our paths cross again."[55]

Yugi and Atem split into separate bodies and faced each other for a moment. With a final nod from Yugi, Atem touched the Millennium Puzzle, making it and himself disappear.[7]

Still determined to Duel Atem, Kaiba combined the Quantum Cube with his KaibaCorp technology. This enabled him to travel to the afterlife, where he located Atem in the Pharaoh's palace. Atem was wearing the Millennium Puzzle and smiled confidently when approached by Kaiba.[7]

TL;DR - After the Millennium Puzzle was returned to the slab, Kaiba, overzealous rival that he is, went graverobbing, & had his computer scan the pieces to solve it.
Through following circumstances not entirely caused by Kaiba's efforts, he did briefly get to see Atem reappear for a moment.
Later, Kaiba used his technology along with stuff from the movie's villain to transport himself to the afterlife (& AFAIK, this is NOT meant in a "he died" sense.) so he could go face Atem again, & did.

The Wiki says this on the matter of the mechanical solving:

In addition to its mechanical complexity, the Puzzle can interfere with the mind of the person trying to solve it. It can range from simply making them unable to connect pieces in ways that seem intuitive[4] to driving the individual mad.[5] This is a means of allowing only chosen individuals to solve it.[6] However this obstacle can be overcome using a machine capable of following an algorithm that goes through assembly patterns.[7]

By psychological games, I meant using Social Influencing of high levels by manipulating people, deceiving them or causing any psychological effects as such. By psychological games, I didn't mean simply playing a game which involved mind usage, I am sorry for being unclear with my words.

Fair enough.

I guess so that can be slid.

"Slid"?

Apologies if this is a bit tedious.

 

[Undylan]

Hmmm should I change chess to duel monsters to make it more fair?

 

[Imaginym]

Hmmm should I change chess to duel monsters to make it more fair?

They're not on the profile, so maybe not, but Fate/Destiny/Luck Manipulation powers go brrr.

Also, Duel Monsters would mean decks need to be decided for the participants, & even then it's still heavily luck-based. If either of them "bricks", lol....

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I will be voting on Koji due to Reggor's reasons, I am willing to change opinion too

I remember Yugi as being very op at games when i was a kid lol

 

[Imaginym]

I will be voting on Koji due to Reggor's reasons, I am willing to change opinion too

I remember Yugi as being very op at games when i was a kid lol

He's a good gamer in general, but further from infallible than Kiyotaka, whom, AFAIK, is a very OP specialist.

 

[DeltaStriker22]

Koji fra

 

[Undylan]

Hm, how would Koji deal with Yugi's luck Manipulation at these games?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Hm, how would Koji deal with Yugi's luck Manipulation at these games?

His luck is just drawing cards he needs

I don't see how that affects chess

 

[Imaginym]

Hm, how would Koji deal with Yugi's luck Manipulation at these games?

As already discussed, he likely wouldn't need to.

Chess is a fully public information game with no RNG.

Also, I'm surprised neither of his profiles cover the supposed ability of the Puzzle/Pharaoh to manipulate destiny to assure victory or whatever that was.
Not that that would help much in a no luck, practically solved, fully public information game like Chess.
Unless that extends to like, making his opponent make mistakes, lol. That or outside intervention are the only kinds of "luck" I can think of being involved in chess. Maybe influencing which versions of the rules they end up using/consulting for some reason, if that doesn't count as cheating?

Chess doesn't happen to be a luck-based game, yes, it is more oriented with trying to have someone make a mistake or out-think them and play moves.

But yes, anything supernatural like manipulation of rules, or maybe even thinking of a character, if Yami Yugi does it often (or it wouldn't be applicable if he cannot) would count to be completely in the position of other side's wincons, and probably even a stomp.

In theory, maybe his Luck Manipulation could affect outside factors, but I'm not sure that'd result in a valid win at the game of chess.
According to the reply I've seen, it seemingly wouldn't be.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Hm, how would Koji deal with Yugi's luck Manipulation at these games?

In theory, maybe his Luck Manipulation could affect outside factors, but I'm not sure that'd result in a valid win at the game of chess.
According to the reply I've seen, it seemingly wouldn't be.

As Imaginym pointed out, chess isn't particularly luck based on its part, while it does go with manipulation of external factors, but I can't think of how that would lead to Kiyotaka losing, considering how it would also depend upon a variety of things such as the extent of manipulation. I am completely unknown with the "extent", however.