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World of Darkness revisions

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Glad to have all the help I can get, so, what do you think of the verse/evidence I have given?
 
I genuinely don't know if I have much to add beyond what I said before (which is clarified with the word "if"), since I'm not very familiar with the verse. I could try and give a deeper analysis, but idk about right now.
 
Interesting how the Maya Dream Realm, Plato's Perfect World, and Ein Sof all exist within the High Umbra alongside being transcendent to worlds that are described as being 8D/10D via Superstring theory and people are doubting the Tellurian being High 1-C.
 
Not even just Plato's Perfect world, concepts that Plato thought of but never said.
 
Well, if they don't respond back within 1-2 days, you can probably politely ask them again.
 
The Jungian Archetypes exist:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/517952287537102848/unknown.png

Mages can transcend scientific possibilities:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/517554428090384394/517957863960870914/unknown.png

The Sons of Ether (A faction of Mages) can create Platonic objects:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...59710113005571/Screenshot_20181130-010652.png

^ As well as them being stated to create Platonic concepts as well, namely the Platonic concept of Quantum physics.

Quantum superposition:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...60315015659520/Screenshot_20181130-010936.png

These beings who create Platonic concepts cannot fully understand Science due to how advanced Science is:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...61672577515520/Screenshot_20181130-011457.png

The Sons of Ether are able to make Ether, Ether exists infinite number of forms and occupies all Space and Time:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...63130761117696/Screenshot_20181130-012041.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...63141141889025/Screenshot_20181130-012045.png
 
So Mages:

"Unknown, At least 4-C | At least 1-C, likely High 1-C possibly Much Higher"

Keys: Mage | Archmages

Powers and abilities: Enhanced Senses, Weapon Mastery, Fate Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Time Travel, Radiation Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Anti-Matter Manipulation, Willpower Manipulation, Vibration Manipulation, Quantum Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Magic, Power Nullification, Transmutation, Reality Warping, Void Manipulation, Regenerationn (High-Godly), Shapeshifting, Precognition, Invisibility, Mind Manipulation, Teleportation, Attack Reflection, Dimensional Travel, Water Manipulation, Weather Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction, Absorption, Extrasensory Perception, Acausality (Type 5), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 3), Causality Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Earth Manipulation, Flight, Plasma Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Petrification, Emphatic Manipulation, Empowerment, Darkness Manipulation, Density Manipulation, Vector Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Creation, Death Manipulation, Heat Manipulation, Poison Manipulation, Data Manipulation, Acid Manipulation, Morality Manipulation, Age Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Energy Projection, Life Manipulation, Light Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Possesion, Fire Manipulation, Plant Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, Technological Manipulation, Pocket-Reality Manipulation, Ectoplasm Manipulation, Elemental Manipulation, Animal Manipulation, Magma Manipulation, Magnetic Manipulation, Fusionism, Ice Manipulation, Sand Manipulation, Explosion Manipulation, Sound Manipulation, Dimensional Manipulation, Illusion Creation, Sleep Manipulation, Portal Creation, Power Bestowal, Reactive Evolution, Astral Projection, Technological Manipulation, Stat Reduction & Increase, Status Effect Inducement, Text Manipulation, Sealth Mastery, Vehicular Mastery, Mathematics Manipulation, Non-Corporeal, Perception Manipulation, Size Manipulation, Resurrection, Necromancy, One Hit Kill, Madness Manipulative, Memory Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, Healing, Summoning, BFR, Sealing, Biological Manipulation, Regenerationn and Immortality Negation (High-Godly and Immortality type 1, 2, 3, 5, 6), Resistances to Time Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Power Nullification, Curse Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Morality Manipulation, Sealing, Blood Manipulation, Chaos Manipulation, Fear Manipulation and many more | All previous abilities increased to a immense amount Higher Dimensional Manipulation, Nigh-Omniscience, Forcefield Creation, Immortality (Type 4, 5, 7, 8), Disease Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation, Absorption, all previously stated abilities.


Angels/Demons

"At least 1-C, likely High 1-C possibly much Higher | Unknown, at least 1-C, likely High 1-C possibly much Higher" Powers and abilities: Enhanced Senses, Weapon Mastery, Fate Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, Time Travel, Radiation Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Anti-Matter Manipulation, Willpower Manipulation, Vibration Manipulation, Quantum Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Magic, Power Nullification, Transmutation, Reality Warping, Void Manipulation, Regenerationn (High-Godly), Shapeshifting, Precognition, Invisibility, Mind Manipulation, Teleportation, Attack Reflection, Dimensional Travel, Water Manipulation, Weather Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction, Absorption, Extrasensory Perception, Acausality (Type 4), Immortality (Type 1, 2, 3), Causality Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Earth Manipulation, Flight, Plasma Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Petrification, Emphatic Manipulation, Empowerment, Darkness Manipulation, Density Manipulation, Vector Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2), Creation, Death Manipulation, Heat Manipulation, Poison Manipulation, Data Manipulation, Acid Manipulation, Morality Manipulation, Age Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Energy Projection, Life Manipulation, Light Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Possesion, Fire Manipulation, Plant Manipulation, Holy Manipulation, Technological Manipulation, Pocket-Reality Manipulation, Ectoplasm Manipulation, Elemental Manipulation, Animal Manipulation, Magma Manipulation, Magnetic Manipulation, Fusionism, Ice Manipulation, Sand Manipulation, Explosion Manipulation, Sound Manipulation, Dimensional Manipulation, Illusion Creation, Sleep Manipulation, Portal Creation, Power Bestowal, Reactive Evolution, Astral Projection, Technological Manipulation, Stat Reduction & Increase, Status Effect Inducement, Text Manipulation, Sealth Mastery, Vehicular Mastery, Higher Dimensional Manipulation, Nigh-Omniscience, Forcefield Creation, Disease Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation, Absorption, Mathematics Manipulation, Non-Corporeal, Perception Manipulation, Size Manipulation, Resurrection, Necromancy, One Hit Kill, Madness Manipulative, Memory Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, Healing, Summoning, BFR, Sealing, Biological Manipulation, Regenerationn and Immortality Negation (High-Godly and Immortality type 1, 2, 3, 5, 6), Resistances to All Mage abilities | All others reduced to an unknown, but minor degree, Immortality (Type 6), Corruption.

Keys: Angel | Demon

The One Giver (God):

"At least Low 1-C, possibly Much Higher" | At least 1-C, likely High 1-C, possibly Much Higher"

Keys: The Demiurge (Avatar) | True Form

Power and abilities: I'll just update his current profile.
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
There's a lot of abilities missing. And where does Star level Mages come from?
Click to expand...
Them being able to mess with Sol: The embodiment of Infinity, which is stated to be the Sun.

Also, you're right, there's a lot of abilities missing.
 
You can ask all of the staff members who participated above to comment again, if they do not do so within the next day or so.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The only thing I said I accepted was 7D or so. Not higher.
Click to expand...
We have an 8-D statement.

(See Respect blog)

Each Realm is transcendant of the other by an unknown amount:

https://imgur.com/Tylvmoh

https://imgur.com/r3FkQS6

So, low ball, 8-D to 11-D.


As for the abilities, I've just went through the books, they do in fact possess these.

Adding justifications will make it even bigger, that's why I took them off.
 
There are countless statements of Platonic Forms existing in the cosmology and every other character being able to create and manipulate them, but that's not what I'm going to mention in this post. What I do intend to go over is how blatantly this mention of them, accurately describes Platonic Forms for the same reason that we consider them Outerversal.
 
 
I really hope people are aware of the fact that if Platonic Forms are in any way affected by something withi the normal verse, they are not true Platonic Forms, they are not in any way outerversal via that alone.

Even just "Platonic Forms" on its own is shaky without being extremely specific, assuming there are no contradictions whatsoever.

Something within a verse that is not on its own already fully and completely transcendent of the verse should not logically be able to affect a true Platonic concept.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
I really hope people are aware of the fact that if Platonic Forms are in any way affected by something withi the normal verse, they are not true Platonic Forms, they are not in any way outerversal via that alone.
Even just "Platonic Forms" on its own is shaky without being extremely specific, assuming there are no contradictions whatsoever.
Click to expand...
They're not, only the Mages and beings transcendant over them.

Mages create them and can manipulate them, no one below them can do that.
 
If the mages are not already being who are completely and utterly transcendent over all reality from the get-go, and are not bound by any of its concepts/do not "participate" in them, this is kinda bad evidence for true Platonic forms.

Also, this quote is kinda in the OP.

"Within the Epiphamies, you might find a Fortress of Government that represents the symbolic might and futility of that concept; a River of Language that flows with the sounds of every dialect ever spoken on Earth; a titanic chiming clock with a thousand hands, each one marking some measure of Time; the realm of Platonic ideals, which exists perhaps only because Plato imagined that it might."
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
If the mages are not already being who are completely and utterly transcendent over all reality from the get-go, and are not bound by any of its concepts/do not "participate" in them, this is kinda bad evidence for true Platonic forms.
Click to expand...
The Mages get their powers from God (The One Giver), so their power is transcendent over all reality from the get-go.
 
"Getting your powers from a transcendent being" usually isn't enough if the being doing the manipulating itself is still part of reality. The idea of a being who is part of reality manipulating a true Platonic form is kinda contradictory to what said form actually is, which is also part of the problem with treating philosophy exactly the same whenever it shows up in a fictional verse.

Also, see the quote above. Which implies these forms aren't actually exactly the same as they are in Plato's philosophy. Which kinda makes this not a real problem.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
"Getting your powers from a transcendent being" usually isn't enough if the being doing the manipulating itself is still part of reality. The idea of a being who is part of reality manipulating a true Platonic form is kinda contradictory to what said form actually is, which is also part of the problem with treating philosophy exactly the same whenever it shows up in a fictional verse.
Also, see the quote above. Which implies these forms aren't actually exactly the same as they are in Plato's philosophy. Which kinda makes this not a real problem.
Click to expand...
Thing is, God isn't bound by creation, it's been stated he's transcendant over it, but never he's bound by it.

Additionally, the first infinite realms of the Low Umbra are stated to be transcendant over the mundane reality.

With the Mundane reality (The Tapestry) is stated to be transcendant over all language.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I kinda agree with Azzy, There are a lot of... very generous interpretations here.
Click to expand...
Well, not really, if you're talking about the powers and abilities, a full justification version is being made currently with screenshots.

If you mean the Outerversal stuff, there's even more evidence.
 
I agree with Udl and Hadou here. God predates creation and is transcendent over it. Then there's the fact that it could just be part of his being and the many statements of platonic philosophy. I think that's enough for 1-A God.

When it comes to the Plato topic. I don't see how that statement with Plato contradicts the Mages manipulation of platonic concepts. It can be interpreted in different ways.
 
The issue is that if said Platonic forms are suggested to quite possibly exist only because Plato imagined them (along with other things such as Ein Sof being similar), they are very much not following what makes Platonic forms what they are. This is also part of why we have "False Platonic Concept" on the Conceptual Manipulation page.

Defying conventional dimensional physics also definitely isn't a 1-A feat for quite a few reasons, ranging from being dimensionless =/= transcending dimensions to "conventional dimensional physics" having multiple meanings depending on context.
 
I haven't been keeping up, can someone give me the rundown on the current topic? Is Udl proposing 1-A God?
 
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