• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Why the Phoenix Force and its Avatar's are underestimated here?

Status
Not open for further replies.
That is what the word automatically means, but my point is that after Alan Moore let Opal Luna Saturnyne be called the omniversal majestrix, simply due to overseeing a comparatively small number of universes watched over by the Captain Britain Corps, it started to get spammed a lot in connected stories, without anywhere near the original meaning, and usually simply referred to the universes under her rule.
 
I agree with you Ant. But you have to admit, it does get confusing when everything is taken into consideration :

  1. 1: How many times Omniverse was used. FR was called an Omniverse-Level threat back when the first definition was the only one.
  1. 2 : The previous applications
Omniverse in Secret Wars = Everything other than The Outside based on Ultimates .

Omniverse in Ultimates = Exact same thing ( Considering Secret Wars is canon to Ultimates, they reference Owen Reece w/ Beyonders' powers like 3 times ) .

  1. 3: Kevin Brashear
The above kinda get even more confusing when you remember Kevin Brashear's statement. Even if he wanted to correct himself, Swing failed to realized how many realms are 1-A or High 1-B within MU [ Crossroads, Eternity's Realm , Realm that Shouldn't Be , Oblivion's Realm , Cosmic Vortex , etc. ). It's one of the many reasons I chose to ignore Swing's and most other Author Statements unless supported by previous implications. There is also a FR feat in there , but it's an obvious outlier. Using " Omniverse " is near impossible here. Omniverse Varies usually from 2-A to High 1-B depending in the story. I agree that Rachel in theory hasn't been shown anywhere near that powerful, same with the Impossible Man.
 
The problem is that different writers have extremely different standards, and for example, Al Ewing stated outright that he simply used the word because it sounded cool. It recurrently has to be interpreted as extreme hyperbole.
 
Yeah I agree with your points on what he meant by "Omniverse" . But , the MAIN problem is he only corrected on his usage of "Omniverse" as "Multiverse" . He still meant for Kevin Brashear to be the first person to go outside of the Multiverse, when we had SEVERAL other entities in MU [ Some of them he {Al Ewing} personally was a part of keep in mind ] be in High 1-B AND 1-A realities, making it interpreted that the Multiverse in Secret Wars and Ultimates as containing both, making Eternity much stronger and contradicting so many points. The only closure here is the fact that only a few people within Ultimates and Secret Wars scales to such ludicrosy.
 
Al Ewing's version of the Marvel multiverse was explicitly only referred to as a collection of universes, and the First Firmament as a larger single universe. Again, Marvel writers do not care at all about consistency.
 
We've been using that way of scaling for a LONG while . Our entire scaling , sans a few pages, do this exact method . Al Ewing's Ultimates is canon to Secret Wars. Using your logic : Let's downgrade First Firmanent to 2-A, Beyonders to 2-A , and everything else shown within those two stories that are Abstract Level to 2-A , because they haven't shown High 1-B level stuff in neither of those comics, and we use past comics to scale to it, just like i'm doing . We used the same logic i did to upgrade. Why are we giving some pages advantages [ Firmanent literally has this exact reasoning ] & The Beyonders' , but refusing to give it to things that validly scale ?
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
We've been using that way of scaling for a LONG while . Our entire scaling , sans a few pages, do this exact method . Al Ewing's Ultimates is canon to Secret Wars. Using your logic : Let's downgrade First Firmanent to 2-A, Beyonders to 2-A , and everything else shown within those two stories that are Abstract Level to 2-A , because they haven't shown High 1-B level stuff in neither of those comics, and we use past comics to scale to it, just like i'm doing . We used the same logic i did to upgrade. Why are we giving some pages advantages [ Firmanent literally has this exact reasoning ] & The Beyonders' , but refusing to give it to things that validly scale ?
Click to expand...
That also explain why the living tribunal was weaker in that story he was the embodiment of a multiverse but normally eternity is a small portion of him.
 
That is what i am saying : If Firmanent gets treatement based on former comics portrayals, why can't comics canon to that one (Secret Wars) get the exact same treatement ? Is it because it doesn't feel right ? If we use the same method we used in the past, an upgrade wouldn't actually be that bad. This is my only argument .

But i personally feel we should stop derailing this thread.
 
╬Ü╬ƒ╬£╬Ö╬× said:
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
Yeah... It is pretty inconsistent if we use evidences from those comics, LT in those comics would just be 2-A .
Click to expand...
Yes indeed... I think modern writers nerf some Cosmic Entities a lot...
Click to expand...
And now The living Tribunal is weaker then before.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
[ Pretty Much ] . The only possible argument is the mentioning of the Crossroads of Infinity, and it was said that isn't a argument to upgrade... So...
Click to expand...
Kadmon is pretty weak now too have you realise that?
 
We had to make the Beyonders and the First Firmament into High 1-B, since they explicitly were capable of destroying Multi-Eternity or the Living Tribunal in their entireties. Originally we did rate the Beyonders much lower, but it created too great inconsistencies in our profiles.
 
Again, we have to try to find some kind of rational balance where Marvel is essentially batshit insane in terms of consistency, so it isn't easy.

Regardless, unless the Phoenix Force demonstrates the ability to destroy the multiverse in its absolute entirety, we are definitely not upgrading it to High 1-B.
 
I never said upgrade into high 1-B. However, by the time of after Secret Wars, Eternity was completely whole. Nothing suggested he was not whole in Ultimates, except the balance of power was shifted. Albeit, everything in Eternity was 2-A at that minute . Wouldn't you think they would've said something like Eternity was incomplete or something ? Ewing never stated that. I honestly believe we just made that up as a form of head canon Any to adjust to his downgrade.

If he was portrayed in ultimates as 2-A, for rules of consistency due to the canonicity of ultimates and it's connect to Secret Wars, unless explicit proof is shown, Secret Wars Eternity is 2-A as well.
 
Both "Time Runs Out" and the Ultimates versions of the multiverse were separately presented as just 2-A. In the former case because the multiverse was destroyed by mere universes colliding, and in the latter case because it was created by a larger universe being fragmented into smaller universes.

However, given that the multiverse had previously been defined as infinite-dimensional, and the Tribunal and Multi-Eternity were embodiments of it, we were forced to scale the Beyonders and the First Firmament from them for the sake of consistency, even though it technically felt wrong to do so.
 
No problem. I have repeatedly told Seed to stop bothering us about Marvel and DC, but he keeps persisting.
 
In some cases 1-A or High 1-A.

Anyway, he does not seem to realise that we do not have limitless time and energy to constantly deal with him by repeating ourselves.
 
Why are you guys saying that is my motivation here ? I simply asked why you guys are using 2 ways to scale simultaneously, when you can use just one by itself. If I was trying to upgrade, every thread I made will be " Content Revision " but none of them were. I wanted to discuss it,plain and fricking simple. And the only way for me to get your attention is through such threads . I tried to be as respectful as remotely possible to address the flaws you both made, but you guys are somewhat ignoring the points I made and giving me " It is impossible " & " Another Upgrade " vibes again and again, when it wasn't my reason to ask. I'm asking this for sake of consistency and decency's sake. If they got upgraded or downgraded , I wouldn't mind. But this topic isn't about upgrading... It's about which is more consistent. If you bought scans to prove Ultimates and Secret Wars are both just a specific tier,I would immediately admit defeat. I have a feeling this will be ignored or still written off as " another upgrade " , but I wanted to let both of you know that was not my intention.
 
We are just using High 1-B for the abstract embodiments of the multiverse and the beings capable of defeating them in their entireties.

If we went by the most recent portrayals, virtually all of them would be 2-A, with the exception of pre-retcon Beyonder and Oblivion.
 
@Matthew

Should we create two different statistics keys for the higher Marvel abstract entities? One with High 1-B ratings for their traditional portrayals, and another rated as 2-A for their current portrayals. It would take into account an awful lot of inconsistencies in the storytelling.
 
How exactly can you beat them in their entirety ? They don't have High 1-B portrayals feat wise at that point. It is why I stated that for Firmament's tier, you had to use preexisting notions to determine it. Now I know why you guys did it before

Another thing we basically agree on. It's seemingly why LB Galactus, Seed Celestials , and quite a few others in Ultimates are 2-A .
 
Well, I am actually leaning towards agreeing with Seed that we might have to give the Marvel multiversal abstracts a variable tier to take into account the insanely inconsistent storytelling. "Varies between 2-A and High 1-B depending on the story" or something similar, while the Beyonders and the First Firmament might be rated as 2-A, due to the stories that they appeared in portraying them at that level.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I am actually leaning towards agreeing with Seed that we might have to give the Marvel multiversal abstracts a variable tier to take into account the insanely inconsistent storytelling. "Varies between 2-A and High 1-B depending on the story" or something similar, while the Beyonders and the First Firmament might be rated as 2-A, due to the stories that they appeared in portraying them at that level.
Click to expand...
I also agree. It will solve many problems...

@Matthew so what do you think of the Phoenix? The tier is ok?
 
Matthew seems to be busy IRL. He has been slow to reply to another conversation.
 
My main problem is do we ignore the Breasher statement that I addressed a few times beorr ? I m not trying to make it more inconsistent, but since it was consistently stated in Ultimates , Secret Wars , and confirmed via WoG... I'd like opinion on it here.
 
Ultimates. Kevin Brashear was referred to as the only person in MU to go outside the Multiverse... Literally making every High 1-B and 1-A reality a part of the Multiverse in Ultimates... And considering they mention the Crossroads, an attempt to downgrade that is unfortunately unlikely.
 
I do not think that your interpretation seems reliable. The First Firmament was explicitly just a large universe, and still stronger than Multi-Eternity.
 
Anyway, perhaps we should close this thread, so I and Matthew can deal with the Marvel revisions at our own pace
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Hirotoswnn1x
Jean grey base form upgrade
Replies
6
Views
2K
Excellence616
Excellence616
LordTracer
  • Locked
Marvel Comics: Jean Grey Justification Addition
Replies
14
Views
2K
LordTracer
LordTracer
Hirotoswnn1x
Jean grey and nightmare up to High1-A !!!
Replies
12
Views
2K
BunBun
BunBun
Abu2411
Strongest Marvel Superheroes
Replies
5
Views
2K
IDrey
IDrey
RoTt35
  • Locked
Phoenix Jean Grey (Pre-Retcon) Additions
Replies
18
Views
1K
RoTt35
RoTt35
Back
Top