Why the Phoenix Force and its Avatar's are underestimated here?

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Hmm. If even the WPotC is only one of many multiversal avatars, I suppose that 2-A might be more appropriate.

Jean with 616 Phoenix Force became the White Phoenix of the Crown. Also this Phoenix limits are yet to be seen.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Some scans

• In Phoenix Generations Galactus says that he reveres the power Green Phoenix Jean possesses. Unlike Dark Phoenix, Green Phoenix restrains her powers.
• Way back Mr. Fantastic said that Dark Phoenix was so strong that could rival the power of Galactus
• Cosmic Cube beings claimed that the Phoenix is the Mother of Stars, the source of their power..
• The Phoenix Force converses with The Living Tribunal on why Jean cannot hold the entire Phoenix Force
• The watcher from the Dark Phoenix Saga...
• The White Hot Room, resides in the M'Kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of all Realities. You destroy the M'Kraan Crystal, according to one of the guardians Jaff, you destroy the multiverse.
• X-Men Annual: White Phoenix transforming time and space
• Projecting the essense of a tower simultaneously in the Multiverse
• Rachel and Beyonder
• Necrom (Anti Phoenix) with a fraction of the Phoenix Force is capable of compressing all alternate Earths in singularity
• Rachel vs Necrom.
• Rachel has not great experience with the Force...
• Necrom a bit pissed..
• White Hot Room is in the Crystal is the Heart of the Phoenix. There many avatars reside. Its like Phoenix Corps

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Matthew?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I missed this thread. I'll look at it when I have more time tomorrow.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I missed this thread. I'll look at it when I have more time tomorrow.

Well?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Bump

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

I think Necrom's feat with a mere portion of the force is a very good one. Also Jean with a mere Phoenix portion in her X-Factor days destroyed Arishem's hand. The Celestial Judger. https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/661172-celestial_4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/661173-celestial_5.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28028/661169-celestial_6.jpg

 

[Antvasima]

That is taken out of context. That was the collective power of an entire planet full of superpowered mutants that Cyclops shot at Arishem. It simply took the form of the Phoenix. In addition, it is a low end outlier for the Celestials.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, could you take a look at the other linked feats of this thread Matthew? It is possible that we have to revise the Phoenix.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

That is taken out of context. That was the collective power of an entire planet full of superpowered mutants that Cyclops shot at Arishem. It simply took the form of the Phoenix. In addition, it is a low end outlier for the Celestials.

Hmm I remeber though that Jean used a Phoenix fragment that she received in Inferno...

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, she got rid of it in combination with the power of all the superpowered inhabitants of the planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Phoenix is very hard to judge.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it is very inconsistent. However, the above listed examples might be of help to you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will look at all scans one by one now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, I corrected a typo in an earlier post. I accidentally said the Celestials instead of the Phoenix.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Ant here. The Celestials have quite a few high-ends, even without using Arishem, who is arguably the weakest celestial (Feat wise) .

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

• If the Phoenix Force is the source of all psionic power in the Multiverse, it'd be 2-A at least.
• Phoenix being an abstract more powerful than Galactus is also At least 2-C
• Uncertain about High 1-B Phoenix
• That's at least Low 2-C, and it is for an avatar of the full Phoenix
• Good feat that proves that Phoenix Avatars are at least 4-B
• Well, obviously
• I would say that is hyperbole if not for the visuals... Low 2-C is a possibility
• Phoenix Five > Thor is a well-known feat
• 3-A / Low 2-C?
• I've seen this scan. It's one of the images that suggests that Phoenix > Other Abstracts
• Yep, another scan showing that.
• Another scan. Saying that Phoenix can destroy the whole cosmos, showing Abstracts bowing to Stranger with her power, and saying that only Oblivion will remain to consume existence and have it begin anew. This is unambiguously High 1-B, I think.
• This confirms that the Phoenix is a necessary aspect of the multiverse.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

tweet tweet

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Okay. Thanks Matt. 2 High 1-B level feats ( Both legitimate... Wow. ) ... few 2-A, and a few Low 2-C. The Pheonix has been a pretty powerful force... Although canonically they depict Celestials as being comparable to the Phoenix Force. I don't mind either 2-A or High 1-B IMO . However, just like the Abstracts, determining which one it falls under is... Tricky.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Now second batch of scans:

• Another proof of Phoenix > Galactus
• I think that Dark Phoenix is potentially 3-A but never reached her full power in the 616 Universe
• That doesn't say much but cool
• Phoenix conversing with the Tribunal is more proof of her being a Multiversal Abstract
• Watcher saying the Phoenix is second only to the Creator is definitely exaggeration
• Not sure the significance of this
• Proof that White Phoenix is Low 2-C
• Rachel Phoenix hurting Pre-Retcon Beyonder seems very much nonsense
• Fusing all universes into one is 2-A

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think "At least 2-A" for the full Phoenix Force is okay.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Matt

What should we do about entities like the Goblin Force? It devoured both the Phoenix Force and Galactus in the Mutant X timeline.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

It still tricky. Should we do something like " At least 2-A , likely Far Higher " ? It's just a suggestion. I also noticed that twice they referred to the Celestials as the Creators of the Universe [ In one of the scans posted here , the Stranger one w/Phoenix, i noticed they can seemingly somewhat control " All of creation " and gives every creation " the potential to end everything". ] . Can you even tier that ? It kinda helps Phoenix because they are comparable, that's why i am asking.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Okay. Thanks. Feel free to update the Phoenix Force page accordingly then.

Should the Jean Grey (Marvel Comics) and Rachel Summers pages be updated as well? They are only avatars after all.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

Galactus who stated that Impossible man is a threat for the 'omniverse' stated also that he would be almost phoenix avatar level.

 

[Antvasima]

However, from what I could see of the "X-Men Forever" scans of the Stranger in the first post, only the universe was threatened, not the multiverse. Can you link to the possible High 1-B scans, in case I missed them?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

He's making that decision based on the context of " All of creation " and Oblivion returning everything to once it was, to revert it to nothing.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This one. Says that Phoenix will bring the end of all there is and Oblivion will consume creation.

 

[Antvasima]

@LuckyCharmingStar

That was a joke story spoofing "Acts of Vengeance", and Captain Britain-related stories tend to inappropriately spam the word "Omniverse" without remotely being warranted. The Impossible Man is nowhere near a threat to all of fiction and reality combined.

 

[Reppuzan]

The Phoenix Force and Galactus got devoured in one timeline by the Goblin Force.

Should we count this for anything?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

"All that is" here seems to refer to the earlier sentence mentioning the universe, not all higher dimensions of reality. The stories tend to be inconsistent about this.

In addition, from what I remember of "X-Men Forever", the Stranger wanted to consume all of humanity's inherent potential for evolution to higher levels of power. It was not a story about the Phoenix Force.

 

[Antvasima]

@Reppuzan

I do not think that the awful and obscure alternative reality storyline "Mutant X" is enough to warrant a profile for the Goblin Force, which has since been ignored, as far as I am aware. In addition, we do not know the intended power levels of Galactus and the Phoenix within this story, only that the Goblin Force was here stated to have destroyed galaxies.

 

[Reppuzan]

Fair enough. I just wanted clarification on this.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I can edit the profiles once I'm back from class later today.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

Should Jean and Rachel be upgraded as well?

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

Galactus who stated that Impossible man is a threat for the 'omniverse' stated also that he would be almost phoenix avatar level.

Interesting. So the Phoenix Avatars are not just 4B...

About Necrom's feat. Yes its 2A but with a mere fraction of the Force!

Question: Is Scarlet Witch Low 2C? Because that would make Dark Phoenix Cyclops low 2C.

 

[Antvasima]

Necrom used the nexus within the Excalibur lighthouse. He did not merge any universes through raw power, if at all.

During the fight between himself and Rachel he was able to detonate stars and the like, but nothing of higher scale than that.