• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Why is True Shikai Ichigo not planet level?

Peter1129 said:
Exactly Arrancar Arc Toshiro has a 6-C feat that defeated Resurreccion Harribel and Fullbring Shikai Ichigo also has a 6-C feat and than there's Gran Rey Cero which is High 6-C and got no selled by Resurreccion Grimmjow. You see the problem now?
Click to expand...
Not really tbh.
 
@Sigurd Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.

Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro's Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it's probably gonna be even lower.

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo has a 14.68 feat and he is far stronger than Tsukishima who can fight and hurt Post-Timeskip Byakuya who is stronger than his Arrancar self who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form alongside Kenpachi.

@Dangai Toshiro did briefly defeat and seal Harribel using Tenso Jurin. Which was recalced at 6-C and probably gonna be recalced again with an even lower result based on Damage's reply in the comments.
 
Peter1129 said:
@Sigurd Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.
Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro's Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it's probably gonna be even lower.

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo has a 14.68 feat albeit a casual one is far stronger than Tsukishima who can fight and hurt Post-Timeskip Byakuya who is stronger than his Arrancar self who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form.

@Dangai Toshiro did briefly defeat and seal Harribel using Tenso Jurin. Which was recalced at 6-C and probably gonna be recalced again with an even lower result based on Damage's reply in the comments.
Click to expand...
How big was ichigo's feat ? I don't think it was just the clouds since the mansion behind Ginjo also got vaped away.

Which didn't kill her, despite that being the purpose of the Tenso Jurin...And the one who DID defeat her was Aizen...Toshiro is always the problem at this point. He's the jobber Captain yet he's the one who fights the 3rd strongest Espada at the time
 
Toshiro really isn't a jobber. Bankai Toshiro was having a pretty okay fight with Resurreccion Harribel going back and forth blocking and cancelling her attacks.
 
Peter1129 said:
Toshiro really isn't a jobber. Bankai Toshiro was having a pretty okay fight with Resurreccion Harribel going back and forth blocking and cancelling her attacks.
Click to expand...
Wasn't she the one cancelling his attacks though ? I may have to read it again. But really outside of his Adult form, Grimmjow's Fraccion, Yukio and in this. Toshiro jobbed a lot
 
>Exactly Arrancar Arc Toshiro has a 6-C feat that defeated Resurreccion Harribel

Not really, Hyoten Hakkaso is more of a hax ability. He just manipulates the clouds to generate snow to form the ice flowers.

>Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.

CFYOW Grimmjow did, but Arrancar Arc Grimmjow didn't. However he should scale above it through Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo.

>Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro's Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it's probably gonna be even lower.

Tenso Jurin is not Hyoten Hakkaso.

Hyoten Hakkaso is not an AP based ability.

>She and Starrk were amazed by its power...

Harribel and Starrk were amazed by the weather manipulating, nothing about power.

>she couldn't do a thing to once Tenso Jurin was activated

She couldn't do a thing once Hyoten Hakkaso activated, Toshiro literally states this right as it's happening.

>I think it's pretty self explanatory that Tenso Jurin > Resurreccion Harribel.

No, it's Hyoten Hakkaso > Resurreccion Harribel. But Hyoten Hakkaso isn't AP based.

>No they actually had a back and forth where they kept blocking and cancelling each other's attack.

That's not true. Toshiro never physically crosses blades with Resurreccion Harribel.

The only interactions are between their abilities and it's not scalable truly since it was based on freezing or melting the other's attack.

Hell, Harribel easily breaks out of Toshiro's ice when froze by his surprise attack, easily destroys his Bankai ice wings with a Cero, easily destroys his Bankai ice tail with a strike and easily takes her arm out of being frozen.
 
Fair enough about Hyoten Hyakkaso.

Yeah I messed up there I meant Resurreccion Grimmjow fought Post-Ressurection Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo who no sold Gran Rey Cero.

Fair enough here as well

The weather manipulation is the 6-C feat though.

Yeah I kinda mixed up Hyoten Hyakkaso with Tenso Jurin. But isn't Hyoten Hyakkaso powered by Tenso Jurin?

But isn't that the whole reason they are scaled to each other in the first place? You made the High 6-C thread and said they are comparable to each other because of the back and forth.

But yeah anyways after all the calcs will be finalized we'll probably discuss which calcs are usable on another thread.
 
>The weather manipulation is the 6-C feat though.

All they can tell is the sky is changing randomly and someone is doing it.

They don't have powers that change nature, so it's not surprising that they are amazed by a sudden change in the weather over them by an enemy.

>Yeah I kinda mixed up Hyoten Hyakkaso with Tenso Jurin. But isn't Hyoten Hyakkaso powered by Tenso Jurin?

Tenso Jurin manipulates the weather and Toshiro makes it form snow.

The snow is unique in that it instantly freezes into ice flowers that aren't AP based.

>But isn't that the whole reason they are scaled to each other in the first place? You made the High 6-C thread and said they are comparable to each other because of the back and forth.

That's on me for doing that CRT in a rush to push it out and make it end quickly.

Bankai Toshiro was physically contending with a serious Base Harribel, so Resurreccion being x 5 her Base explains why he could not contend with her Resurreccion. We should take the Resurreccion rating, divide by 5 to get her Base and then scale Bankai Toshiro to that.

That is if we don't find a replacement rating for Toshiro's Shikai or Bankai. Recall that that there is no difference between Toshiro's Shikai and Bankai except for the amount of ice per his own words.
 
I guess that makes sense.

Alright.

Bankai Toshiro contending with Base Harribel does seem much more consistent with him fighting Resureccion Luppi just a few days prior.

I'd assume his Bankai also boost his AP but if he really did say there's no difference other than the amount of ice he controls than I guess we won't consider it a 5x multiplier.

Although to be honest we probably would need to consider Gran Rey Cero an outlier. Even assuming all the multipliers are 10x there would still be a huge gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters now. Which makes no sense as we see that Soul Society Arc Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can injure Base Grimmjow. Which means the gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters isn't that big and could be closed up with the multipliers. But right now if we use Gran Rey Cero Arrancar Arc chracters like Base Grimmjow would be a couple million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

Not to mention there's the whole thing with Fullbring Arc only having a 6-C feat and Arrancar Arc Toshiro's 6-C Storm calc begin incorrect.
 
Unless...Toshiro in Soul Society really took his L from Aizen really badly and then went on a massive training arc until the Arrancar arc, which he kinda was when we see him training Jinzen with Ikkaku, well Ikkaku was doing Jinzen and Toshirou was just sitting there
 
Thing is we know the gap between stronger Soul Society Arc characters and the weaker Arrancar Arc characters aren't that big based on Ichigo and Grimmjow's fight. This isn't like the Post-Timeskip Arcs where nobody can scale to Pre-Timeskip characters as they never fought anybody from the previous arcs and going by scaling they are way stronger. Toshiro only went from Fraccion Lvl (Shawlong) to Privaron Espada Lvl (Luppi) with his training and Tenso Jurin is broken enough to allow him to briefly defeat Espada lvl (Harribel) characters.
 
For a lot of captains there is almost no difference in progression within the series.

For example Shunsui, dude is pretty lazy and never trains and Jushiro is always sick.

Unohana just drinks tea all the day with Yama lol.
 
I mean they are the oldest and strongest captains I the series they have pretty much reached their peak strength. Shunsui and Jushiro scales to the Post-Timeskip characters while Unohana and Yamamoto scales to Post-Muken Kenpachi.

But the younger captains have been shown to get stronger same with the lieutenants. Speaking of it's really stupid to think the lieutenants never got stronger through the series. All the lieutenants need more keys.
 
>I'd assume his Bankai also boost his AP but if he really did say there's no difference other than the amount of ice he controls than I guess we won't consider it a 5x multiplier.

Yep, Toshiro explains to Bazz-B that his Shikai and Bankai only have a difference in the amount of ice made.

>Although to be honest we probably would need to consider Gran Rey Cero an outlier.

Don't see how, doesn't contradict anything given.

> Even assuming all the multipliers are 10x there would still be a huge gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters now.

There is a 1 month time-skip training for Ichigo's Hollowfication in which others are also training during.

Also, many background characters don't seem to be training like Yama, Unohana, Shunsui, Urahara and Ukitake while also being characters who don't display feats in the SS arc. There can't be outliers for them.

>Soul Society Arc Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can injure Base Grimmjow.

Soul Society Arc Bankai Ichigo literally had his attacks no-sold by Base Grimmjow except for his Getsuga. And even then, Grimmjow said it was weak and 100 of them wouldn't defeat him.

There's a clear difference in AP between his physicals and his Getsuga, and even the Getsuga barely did anything.

>But right now if we use Gran Rey Cero Arrancar Arc chracters like Base Grimmjow would be a couple million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

Well first of all Base Grimmjow doesn't scale to Gran Rey Cero, only Resurreccion Grimmjow does. Also, Base Grimmjow casually no-sells beginning of Arrancar Arc Shikai Ichigo's strikes, so he's much higher anyways.


Another thing is there really isn't much AP feats in the SS arc, we don't really know the level of power of most characters since the feats are so few and don't scale to many.

We have Toshiro's cloud feats and destroying a small building.

Kenpachi and Ichigo destroying half a small city.

Komamura and Tosen destroying part of a small building with Shikai.

Byakuya and Ichigo shaking a hill and such in their fight.

In the end, we're most likely going to have to backscale for SS arc ratings given the lack of feats and the few feats we have don't scale far at all. Plus the fact that many characters in the SS arc have the same level of power to the Arrancar arc anyways or even till the Timeskip (Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara and Unohana are pretty much the same power level through the series).

>Not to mention there's the whole thing with Fullbring Arc only having a 6-C feat

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo, but that doesn't matter since Fullbring Shikai scales from Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo of the Arrancar arc.
 
@IMade

Alright so I guess no AP multiplier for Toshiro's Bankai.

Soul Society Arc Toshiro performed the storm feat while being pissed at Gin which pretty much means he's serious. So that's his best feat in the Soul Society Arc. I would be fine with Gran Rey Cero if there were more feats supporting it but right now there aren't.

After that training Toshiro was still struggling against Luppi who we learned in CFYOW was actually a privaron Espada. Those background characters already scale far above the characters in the Pre-Timeskip arcs.

It was Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo that injured Base Grimmjow not Bankai Ichigo. He very clearly states that the black Getsuga was White's ability so that time he was briefly using Hollowfication. And I wouldn't say this barely did anything, the attack was still strong enough to give him a scar. Also Grimmjow said those Getsugas wouldn't be able to defeat him in Resureccion not Base.

Base Grimmjow would still be over a million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo either way.

Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo scales to Soul Society Arc Toshiro who lets say scales to the 2.5 Megatons end of the new calc. And we also assume the multipliers are 10x rather than 5x. So Base Grimmjow would be 12.1 Gigatons for being 10x weaker than Gran Rey Cero via multipliers from Resureccion. While Soul Society Shikai Ichigo is 2.5 Megatons, Bankai would be 25 Megatons and Hollowficarion would be 250 Megatons.

Shikai Ichigo would be 4.84M times weaker, Bankai would be 484K times weaker and Hollowfication would be 48.4K times weaker than Base Grimmjow which makes no sense as we saw that Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can impress and injure Base Grimmjow. And this was assuming the multiplier was 10x even though the accepted end is 5x which means the gap in actuality is even bigger.

Toshiro's cloud feat was done while he was pissed at Gin that pretty much shows he is likely going serious right off the bat so we do have a feat to scale Soul Society Arc characters to.

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo who is much much stronger than his Arrancar Arc self only having a 6-C feat makes High 6-C Arrancar Arc characters seem like even more of an outlier. But yeah like I said we should put this off and discuss it after all the calcs have been made or revised.
 
That was done by early Arrancar Arc Ikkaku before the training so that should still count as Soul Society Arc Ikkaku which scales to Soul Society Arc lieutenants.
 
We already have SS Captains who scale to HM Captains though. Post Ichigo fight Kenny is the same one who fights and beats Nnoitra. Tosen and Sajin can fight and wound this guy. Tenso Jurin isn't Shiro's limit or anything like that, just his passive reiatsu.
 
Late Arrancar Arc Kenpachi isn't Soul Society Arc Kenpachi. Also Kenpachi is a weird thing so we don't even know if he was at Nnoitra's Lvl when he fought Sajin and Tosen. Like we literally saw him go from struggling against Resureccion Nnoitra to soloing Resureccion 1st Form Yammy in the span of a few minutes to at most an hour.

Tenso Jurin isn't his passive reiatsu it's pretty clear that it's an active ability that is more powerful than his normal Bankai. It is clearly his limit in his unmatured Bankai and it's only 6-C if not lower according to Damage in the comments.
 
Pretty sure we are just leaving it for the end and waiting for the Pre-Timeskip parts of the verse to be revised first. The Post-Timeskip parts can be left for later. Also we are still waiting for more calcs I guess.
 
No. Kenny zenkai boosts whenever he is near death. He almost died to Ichigo and amped to Nnoitra level unless you wanna tell me of a time in between those two fights he came close to dying? Because he dabbed on Tosen and Sajin ran off leaving him nowhere close to dying. He states he was gonna die against Nnoitra if it continued any longer meaning he was close to death, ergo he amped and then bullied Yammy.

He never states it's active, he states it is an ability, of which passives exist. Tenso Jurin is passive except he is actively holding it back as there are allies around, not that it's his limit.
 
>Soul Society Arc Toshiro performed the storm feat while being pissed at Gin which pretty much means he's serious. So that's his best feat in the Soul Society Arc.

What's this in response to?

>I would be fine with Gran Rey Cero if there were more feats supporting it but right now there aren't.

Nothing contradicts it, at the same time the Resurreccion of 4-1 support it.

>After that training Toshiro was still struggling against Luppi who we learned in CFYOW was actually a privaron Espada.

What? Struggling? Luppi's attack did no damage to Toshiro and then Toshiro purposefully prepared an attack to one-shot Luppi.

>It was Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo that injured Base Grimmjow not Bankai Ichigo. He very clearly states that the black Getsuga was White's ability so that time he was briefly using Hollowfication.

That's not Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo.

Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo is the one with the mask.

Hollowfying Bankai Ichigo is when Zangetsu is in control and the Hollow body is forming.

>And I wouldn't say this barely did anything, the attack was still strong enough to give him a scar.

A shallow cut isn't much.

>Base Grimmjow would still be over a million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo either way.

That doesn't really matter since Base Grimmjow no-sells Shikai Ichigo and Bankai Ichigo's physical strikes.

>Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo scales to Soul Society Arc Toshiro who lets say scales to the 2.5 Megatons end of the new calc. And we also assume the multipliers are 10x rather than 5x. So Base Grimmjow would be 12.1 Gigatons for being 10x weaker than Gran Rey Cero via multipliers from Resureccion. While Soul Society Shikai Ichigo is 2.5 Megatons, Bankai would be 25 Megatons and Hollowficarion would be 250 Megatons.

>Shikai Ichigo would be 4.84M times weaker, Bankai would be 484K times weaker and Hollowfication would be 48.4K times weaker than Base Grimmjow which makes no sense as we saw that Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can impress and injure Base Grimmjow. And this was assuming the multiplier was 10x even though the accepted end is 5x which means the gap in actuality is even bigger.

Well first, Soul Society Arc Ichigo's power changes through the arc. He goes from struggling to fight Kenpachi, stalemating Kenpachi, struggling with Byakuya, stalemating Shikai Byakuya and taking hits from Bankai Byakuya.

He only gets stronger over time.

Base Grimmjow was far above what Beginning of Arrancar Arc (thus End of Soul Society Arc) Shikai and Bankai could physically do. His Getsuga was able to hurt him, but nothing physical.

Ichigo should not be scaling from Toshiro ever as they never interact and Ichigo lacks actual feats in the Soul Society Arc. He should be backscaling from Grimmjow if anything since we have better consistent feats in the Arrancar Arc.

>Toshiro's cloud feat was done while he was pissed at Gin that pretty much shows he is likely going serious right off the bat so we do have a feat to scale Soul Society Arc characters to.

Toshiro's cloud manipulation is a basic ability of his Shikai and Bankai. It's not a display of his strength, but a basic side ability of his Shikai and Bankai. We see him then actually fight Gin and restrain him.

>Fullbring Shikai Ichigo who is much much stronger than his Arrancar Arc self only having a 6-C feat makes High 6-C Arrancar Arc characters seem like even more of an outlier.

That doesn't make it an outlier, otherwise we would have to downgrade a lot of characters across the wiki.

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo literally only appears for about 15 chapters in the entire series of Bleach.

It's feats are mainly scaling from Ginjo (who had Ichigo's powers) and figthing Quilge.
 
@IMade That's in response to you saying there's no feat in the Soul Society Arc.

That's why I said we should wait cause right now we still need to wait for more calcs to be made and revised before deciding what is more consistent in a separate thread.

Yeah I messed up there my knowledge of the Luppi fight is a bit rusty. Misremembered Luppi briefly beating Bankai Toshiro before getting surprise attacked.

That page clearly states he's using White's power which means he's partially in a hollow field state.

It was still strong enough that Grimmjow was impressed.

I'm just saying based on the calcs the gap is way too big.

We literally have every single captain scaling to Soul Society Arc Toshiro and now you're saying Ichigo should never scale even though he scales to Byakuya and Kenpachi in the Soul Society Arc? Although having Ichigo and the stronger Soul Society Arc captains backscale from Arrancar Arc Base Grimmjow rather than scale from Toshiro does fix the scaling.

After looking at the fight again it does seem like the Storm was just a side effect. But You do realize that Gin scales above Post-2nd Resurrection Bankai Ichigo right he was clearly just playing around with Toshiro as even Rangiku can block his attack.

It would've been if there was only one High 6-C calc. But now that you brought up the 4-1 Resurrección there is a possibility that it isn't an outlier.

Fullbring Shikai Ichigo is stronger than Fullbring Ichigo who is comparable to Pre-Power Absorption Base Ginjo who is comparable to Tsukishima who can fight Post-Timeskip Bankai Byakuya who is stronger Arrancar Arc Bankai Byakuya who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form alongside Kenpachi. So yeah he has a really long scaling chain that puts him far above his Arrancar Arc self. So anyways like I said let's just put this off until all the calcs have been made or remade after that we'll have this discussion again on a separate thread.
 
Wrath Of Itachi said:
He accepted the low end of the calc, but was still unsure of it. Yet the calc page has the high end as accepted, which is wrong.
Click to expand...
This really doesn't matter if you read his argument, he also choose to no longer engage with us in the discussion which is a sign of concession. He has an issue with parallel worlds he can take it up in a thread to change the standards.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

ReaperAndBlues
  • Locked
Simple Additions For Pre-timeskip and Post-timeskip Ichigo
Replies
18
Views
2K
ReaperAndBlues
ReaperAndBlues
AppleLord
Yhwach Repacles Thanos in the MCU - search for the Stones
Replies
15
Views
2K
AppleLord
AppleLord
Guacamolefletcher
  • Locked
Royd revision
Replies
34
Views
4K
Guacamolefletcher
Guacamolefletcher
Spectra_Schiffer
  • Locked
Some Bleach additions
2
Replies
46
Views
3K
UchihaSlayer96
UchihaSlayer96
Guacamolefletcher
  • Locked
Kenpachi's upgrade
2 3
Replies
88
Views
6K
UchihaSlayer96
UchihaSlayer96
Back
Top