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If a character moves in time stop, they get a resistance on the site, even if the character does it through sheer power. Even though this would logically grant infinite speed, why does the wiki consider it a resistance?
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Why does moving through time stop grant a resistance and not infinite speed?
- Thread starter FluffyCreatureZ
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- infinite speed time stop
Vietthai96
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You need to know that time itself is the progression of event from past to future, through time. And movement require time to progress, thus you need resistance to it to move. Infinite speed still require time to progess, just that progress = 0, but that doesn't mean time is stop, time still move just your speed is so great that from your point of view time is standstill which progression of time = 0
Vietthai96
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Why not, it is normal to think that way, the wiki treat time leap as time stop. If it is treated as literal leaping through time Goku will be infinite to immeasurableFluffy z I see ur intentions....,you want Infinite speed Goku and coz right??
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Trying to push a change in the wiki just becouse you want to upgrade ur favourite character.........,well, I see no point on that
Vietthai96
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It not about push a change or something like that. What i said is point of view, perspective; the site treat time-skip as time stop, thus Goku have resistance to time stop, other treat it as literal skip through time thus Goku is infinite or immeasurable in their view. In an environment which revolved around powerscaling like this, you can't say our wiki interpretation on feat is absolutely right while other interpretation is absolutely wrong, our are the truth/fact while other are false/fake (except some ridiculous, baseless claim of course). We only aim to take the safest, closest, and the most accurate interpretation, agreed by majorities and staffs evaluation through revision but at the same time we can't say our are absolute perfect. Everyone are allowed to have their belief, we can't force our belief on other
About upgrading favorite character, everyone want that, it will be a lie, a hypocrisy if i claim that i don't want to upgrade my favorite further, even wank them to the heaven (lmao). What really matter is we being mature, draw a line between rational, reasonable, accuracy and favorism, unreasonable, bias. Anyway, that is the thing, i don't push anything though lol
Vietthai96
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- #11
Thank you.
My friend was arguing that jotaro and Jiren have infinite speed via time stop. I told him it grants a resistance but didn't actually know why.Fluffy z I see ur intentions....,you want Infinite speed Goku and coz right??
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Yee. I was asking. I didn't even know this place existed until today. I thought you only had a wiki, and that the community half got turned off. This is a whole new thing for me. BTW, thanks for asking for me, Fluffy!
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The community is needed to discuss the contents of the Wiki, so you can't just turn it off if you want to keep things functional. Besides, the Wiki has links to the forum.
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I suppose you could treat time stoppers as having infinite speed for however long they can stop time, and in their time stops range.
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The reason I was wondering for Jiren was because he pushes through in a similar manner to how Goku in Kaioken did. He just boosts his PL until he can do it, and in the English dub (Not sure if it said in japanese tho), King Kai stated that Goku was using his strength to "Push himself into the future". Wouldn't this be considered Infinite Speed?
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- #16
That would be immeasurable speed.
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And an outlier
KingEzran
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The following excerpt is taken from the section on the Speed page entitled "About Time Manipulation and Speed"
"Time Stop (which is stopping time and moving in a time stop) does not grant a user infinite speed, nor does otherwise slowing down time increase somebody's speed rating. These abilities decrease the speed of others instead, while leaving the user's speed the same, and should as such be listed in the powers & abilities sections instead. The extent to which time is slowed down should also be stated, if possible."
And in that same mindset, moving in a time stop shouldn't scale to speed because that means that they just also have the ability to move at a regular speed while everyone else is slowed down, thus, it's a resistance, heck, even an immunity, but not a speed feat.
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No, it wouldn't.
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- #20
Yeah forcing yourself into the future is in fact immeasurable speed.
Vietthai96
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Nah, he talk about goku with ssbkkx10 vs hit in english dub context, which is, in a sense Immeasurable speed context. But eng dub is not original script though
Vietthai96
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I mean, he talked about the statement in the DBS English Dub, which stated Goku forced himself into the future with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x10, which is Immeasurable speed by all mean, but English Dub is not original script.
Also about Immeasurable speed, travel through time with sheer speed is also qualify, faster than instant is also qualify,....
Also about Immeasurable speed, travel through time with sheer speed is also qualify, faster than instant is also qualify,....
KingEzran
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Not disagreeing with you, just going to point out that if travelling through time off of sheer speed isn't immeasurable, there are quite a few Flash pages that need revisions. (Specifically, all the comics ones)
Edit: I still think in Goku's case, it's just a resistance to Time Stop.
KingEzran
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In my opinion, they probably meant that he forced himself out of the time stop, thus in the flow of time, which would mean as opposed to everyone else stuck in a past state, he would be in the future.
Like I don't think it means that a Goku in that state is like "Don't mind me Trunks, you stay in the time machine, I'll meet you there."
Vietthai96
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Hit skip through time, not stop time, he only start to stopping time when Goku throw the kamehameha to the roof
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- #32
No it's not. You don't need to already have infinite speed to get immeasurable speed. Time travel through sheer speed is literally immeasurable speed.
KingEzran
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Overall, this can't be applied to Hit. These are quotes taken from the Speed page of the Vs Battles wiki that I'll be using.
"The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly."
Hit can't travel everywhere instantly, meaning he's not even infinite. Travelling at your average speed when time is stopped isn't a speed buff, and even with how Time Skip is described, it's not travelling through time via sheer speed, but rather that the technique is sending him slightly forward in time and he's able to move around while doing so. (Lower than infinite, thus lower than immeasurable) Hit also can't go everywhen as he can only go forward and only by a small amount. (Not immeasurable)
"For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period."
Hit doesn't move faster than time can flow. Even if you were to say that's what Time Skip is doing, it still doesn't operate at any period, it operates in a very short, specific, defined period. (Not Infinite, thus not immeasurable)
"They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. "
Hit hasn't shown any of these abilities with Time Skip. (Not infinite, thus not immeasurable)
"Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. "
As shown, Hit is not.
"They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right."
Once again, Hit cannot travel backwards, and he cannot travel that far in time.
"They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed."
If Hit had such speed, dodging Jiren after Jiren already struck him would be very helpful, just saying.
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- #34
What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about Goku. Goku.
He was able to force himself into the future and attack hit within his time skip just by powering up via sheer speed. That is in fact an immeasurable speed feat.
KingEzran
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Let's go Goku then. He still can't travel everywhen, he doesn't move faster than the flow of time at any period, he doesn't perceive other finite speed characters as frozen, he still takes time to react to objects of finite speed, there isn't a single character of infinite speed he's perceived as frozen, he can't hop from the beginning to the end of time, he can't travel backwards in time, and he's never dodged an attack after it's been struck. He still doesn't meet the criteria. :/
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- #36
Those are literally examples of what an immeasurable speed character can do, they are not criteria. The criteria is moving faster than linear time, which is what he was doing if you count time skip as literal time skip.
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That's because we bricks have a tendency to "write something misleading and by that meant something more complex explained somewhere else", it's not a good practice and I'm already in process to fix part of it in other thread.
Don't be stubborn about the text saying "Movement beyond linear time." in the meanwhile.
Don't be stubborn about the text saying "Movement beyond linear time." in the meanwhile.
KingEzran
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First off, it's not just a list of what some immeasurable speed characters can do, it's literally a "further explanation." The page says it. Thus, it's just as relevant, if not more so than the statement you took from the speed page. To discount that is like trying to make a counterclaim against an essay while only reading the first sentence.
Even if I were to ignore the fact that it's a further explanation, what you're saying is that he can't do almost any of the other things people with such speed can do, but because he was able to resist one technique on one occasion, and no other feat in the verse even scales near that, but he should still scale?
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- #39
Mate. This is immeasurable speed.
It's that simple, the page even qualifies time travel through sheer speed through an independant rating if it's inconsistent with a character.
Those "further explanations" are not criteria, that's why they are called "further". They just explain what a immeasurable speed can do. If they were all criteria, then I guarantee you that every single character indexed on vs wiki will not be rated immeasurable speed. However that is not the case and characters have gotten immeasurable speed via just being able to satisfy one of those. For example, an immeasuable speed feat would be the ability to react across the entire time axis, but does that mean every character should have performed this feat to be rated that tier? No.
Goku has performed an immeasurable speed feat, it being an outlier is a completely separate discussion.
KingEzran
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I mean, a further explanation is literally a further part of an explanation. Like if you go further walking on a trail, it's still the same trail, just another part. It's like cropping an image and calling it the full picture. But eh, go ahead and run with it if that's what you want to do. :/
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