Why do we consider the Monitor Sphere and Limbo to be a part of creation?

[Garchomp777]

No one scales to the Source/Presence in the most current canon.

Mxy scales above the source and presence, so does arion, so does martian manhunters mindhax, wonder woman was stated to be stronger than any god which should include presence

 

[Deagonx]

The multiverse Perpetua made is not the current universal structure

According to what? We were given absolutely no information regarding what that meant.

Mxy scales above the source and presence

Mxy scales below WF who scales below Perpetua who scales below the Source/Presence.

 

[Garchomp777]

According to what? We were given absolutely no information regarding what that meant.




Mxy scales below WF who scales below Perpetua who scales below the Source/Presence.

Takion is literally the embodiment of the source and Perpetua would clap the source. She just uses it for energy, it doesnt mean shes weaker

Not exactly, he was just visiting the Alephs which are below the Source, and he says that there's a source out there presumably in the overvoid and that he ignored it. At the edge of creation is the source wall and the Alephs.

Destroying creation ≠ scaling to the Source. The source exists outside of creation, plus Darkseid and the Orion scaling to the source is retconed since Darkseid in his soul fire form literally was stalmating an aspect of the source.

Darkseid literally tainted the source

 

[Deagonx]

Takion is literally the embodiment of the source and Perpetua would clap the source. She just uses it for energy, it doesnt mean shes weaker

Takion hasn't appeared in DC in 13 years, and is completely uninvolved in modern cosmology.

The Source/Presence is treated as a deity by Perpetua's own sons and her fellow Super Celestials. Your interpretation of it as some kind of battery she can use flies in the face of her entire backstory.

Source/Presence>Hands>Perpetua

 

[Garchomp777]

Takion hasn't appeared in DC in 13 years, and is completely uninvolved in modern cosmology.

The Source/Presence is treated as a deity by Perpetua's own sons and her fellow Super Celestials. Your interpretation of it as some kind of battery she can use flies in the face of her entire backstory.

Source/Presence>Hands>Perpetua

Dude, the presence isnt the source. Darkseid, boomtube amped superman and diana, orion, even big barda, all scale to takion who is the source itself.

You're telling me when darkseid damaged the source badly, he was damaging the presence?

 

[Amakasu]

Mxy scales above the source and presence,

No he dosen't, lol. What evidence do you have to make such claim?

so does arion

Arion literally got negged by blue beetle.

, so does martian manhunters mindhax

Imagine saying martin manhunter > the source

, wonder woman was stated to be stronger than any god which should include presence

Bro it was john constantine who said that, plus John has ever seen the Presence on earth. Read the comic.

 

[Amakasu]

Takion is literally the embodiment of the source and Perpetua would clap the source. She just uses it for energy, it doesnt mean shes weaker

Embodying something dosen't mean you can use it's full power. I can embody something while not using the full power. Perpetua literally was ordered by the source to create the creation and wf, monitor, and the anti monitor literally called the Presence and the source to deal with perpetua. Like your headcanon of perpetua being stronger than the Presence and the source is literally unsupported. Read the comic.

Darkseid literally tainted the source

That's old comics. Clearly retconed as a much stronger soul fire Darkseid was stalmating a weakned aspect of the source.

 

[Amakasu]

Source > Hal Spectre > Darkseid

 

[Chasekilleen]

Lmao downplay much?

 

[Garchomp777]

Embodying something dosen't mean you can use it's full power. I can embody something while not using the full power. Perpetua literally was ordered by the source to create the creation and wf, monitor, and the anti monitor literally called the Presence and the source to deal with perpetua. Like your headcanon of perpetua being stronger than the Presence and the source is literally unsupported. Read the comic.

That's old comics. Clearly retconed as a much stronger soul fire Darkseid was stalmating a weakned aspect of the source.

Soul fire darkseid didn't stalemate it. And he surpassed the ALE which was stated to be equal to the source. Takion is literally the source itself, highfather is one with the source. Martian Manhunter mindhaxed mageddon who was beyond the source. And Arion being killed by beetle just means Scarab is that powerful. He straight up fused and beat the Great Darkness. That just proves my point of a lot more characters scaling above the presence and source

 

[Amakasu]

Soul fire darkseid didn't stalemate it.

Yes he was until he binded the source.

And he surpassed the ALE which was stated to be equal to the source.

Wdym by ALE? Use the full terms

Takion is literally the source itself, highfather is one with the source.

Again just embodying something dosen't mean it can use it's full power.

Martian Manhunter mindhaxed mageddon who was beyond the source.

It's never stated meggedon > the source

And Arion being killed by beetle just means Scarab is that powerful.

Lol, no. Scarab is not that powerfull that all. Arion is just that weak.

He straight up fused and beat the Great Darkness. That just proves my point of a lot more characters scaling above the presence and source

Presence is literally more powerful than geb

 

[Amakasu]

Plus the Presence and the Source in the current canon are the top dogs of DC by death Metal. The Presence/Source > the hands = perpetua/Bwl>>>> WF/Monitor/Anti monitor>>>>>>>>>> MXY.

 

[Garchomp777]

Yes he was until he binded the source.

Wdym by ALE? Use the full terms

Again just embodying something dosen't mean it can use it's full power.

It's never stated meggedon > the source

Lol, no. Scarab is not that powerfull that all. Arion is just that weak.

Presence is literally more powerful than geb

The Presence always stalemates the great darkness. Why does it mean that Arion is just that weak, and not because scarab is strong? Mageddon was literally stated to come from beyond the source. They don't just embody the source but straight up control it and can become one with the source and even badly damaged it

Arion even used his magic to create a tear of extinction that can kill the presence

 

[Amakasu]

The Presence always stalemates the great darkness.

They never fought even once.

Why does it mean that Arion is just that weak, and not because scarab is strong?

What feats does scarab to say that? It's literally an anti feat for arion

Mageddon was literally stated to come from beyond the source.

Beyond ≠ above

don't just embody the source but straight up control it and can become one with the source and even badly damaged it

Again becoming one with th source is nothing. Spectre became one with the Presence does that mean spectre = the presence?

Arion even used his magic to create a tear of extinction that can kill the presence

Again GEB ≠ the Presence.

 

[Garchomp777]

They never fought even once.

What feats does scarab to say that? It's literally an anti feat for arion

Beyond ≠ above

Again becoming one with th source is nothing. Spectre became one with the Presence does that mean spectre = the presence?

Again GEB ≠ the Presence.

Do you even read comics? Remember the comic where presence had to team up with hell to fight GEB? Or when they fought with each other and they had to call for a truce at the end? Presence has to seal GEB. And what do you mean its an anti feat for Arion? The scarab has a feat that puts him above GEB, the feat is him beating Arion
Beyond literally means above dude. That's the literal definition of the word

 

[Amakasu]

Do you even read comics? Remember the comic where presence had to team up with hell to fight GEB?

Yes I did, geb and the Presence never fought they just agreed to work with each other.

Or when they fought with each other and they had to call for a truce at the end? Presence has to seal GEB.

Presence had to seal GEB? When

And what do you mean its an anti feat for Arion? The scarab has a feat that puts him above GEB, the feat is him beating Arion

It's not consistent for the scarab at all. It's an anti feat for the scarab

Beyond literally means above dude. That's the literal definition of the word

No it dosen't.

 

[Garchomp777]

Yes I did, geb and the Presence never fought they just agreed to work with each other.

Presence had to seal GEB? When

It's not consistent for the scarab at all. It's an anti feat for the scarab

No it dosen't.

Why is it not consistent with the scarab

You agree that Mageddon is beyond the source right?

 

[Amakasu]

You agree that Mageddon is beyond the source right?

No

 

[Deagonx]

Dude, the presence isnt the source.

There is ample proof otherwise.

You're telling me when darkseid damaged the source badly, he was damaging the presence?

No, I'm telling you that relying solely on stories from 2008 to get your information rather than actual ongoing storylines is always going to be erroneous. Death of the New Gods should not be your first and foremost source for information about DC cosmology over actual event comics and storylines that have overwritten/retconned it.

 

[Garchomp777]

There is ample proof otherwise.


No, I'm telling you that relying solely on stories from 2008 to get your information rather than actual ongoing storylines is always going to be erroneous. Death of the New Gods should not be your first and foremost source for information about DC cosmology over actual event comics and storylines that have overwritten/retconned it.

Prove that its retconned

 

[Deagonx]

Prove that its retconned

The Source's position is the cosmology is now 3 or 4 tiers above Darkseid. Source>Hands>Perpetua>Hecate>Darkseid

 

[LuciferDC099]

What do you mean by "Creation" ? Morrison uses "Creation" and "Multiverse" to describe the Orrery of Worlds, but Mike Carey uses "Creation" to describe everything in the Map of the Multiverse. Monitor Sphere is beyond the Orrery of Worlds, but it isn't beyond the entire Creation (Mike Carey's definition).

 

[Garchomp777]

What do you mean by "Creation" ? Morrison uses "Creation" and "Multiverse" to describe the Orrery of Worlds, but Mike Carey uses "Creation" to describe everything in the Map of the Multiverse. Monitor Sphere is beyond the Orrery of Worlds, but it isn't beyond the entire Creation (Mike Carey's definition).

Writer's intention doesn't matter

 

[LuciferDC099]

It isn't about writer intention it's about definitions of words.

 

[Garchomp777]

It isn't about writer intention it's about definitions of words.

Show scans of creation having different meaning

 

[LuciferDC099]

Here and here "Creation" means Orrery of Worlds while in Carey's Lucifer (2000) series it means everything on the Map of the Multiverse (i don't think i should provide examples for that for obvious reasons).