Why do we consider the Monitor Sphere and Limbo to be a part of creation?

[Xearsay]

The Monitor Sphere is stated to be outside of creation and outside of the Multiverse in almost everyone of it's appearances. And it wasn't created by the Presence either. It's a realm that grew into existence around the Thought Robot within the Overvoid.

Another realm is Limbo. We have no clue how it was made and it's never said to be a part of creation. All we know is that it's separated by the light manifestation which represents the middle ground between reality and limbo.

So why did we consider these two realms to be a part of creation if there’s no proof they are?

 

[Deagonx]

The Monitor Sphere is stated to be outside of creation

When?

outside of the Multiverse in almost everyone of it's appearances.

Multiverse refers to different things in different contexts. In many instances, multiverse simply refers to the Orrery. However, on the DC Map of the Multiverse, the Monitor Sphere and Limbo are both clearly a part of the multiverse.

We have no clue how it was made and it's never said to be a part of creation.

Why would we assume by default that it's not a part of creation?

And it wasn't created by the Presence either. It's a realm that grew into existence around the Thought Robot within the Overvoid.

This has been retconned since the introduction of Perpetua. The idea that Dax Novu was a probe that interacted with "story" to create the Monitor race is no longer DC canon.

 

[Elizio33]

The Monitor Sphere is within Grant Morrison's Map of the Multiverse.

Limbo is the furthest edge of the manifest DC Universe. ''The manifest DC Universe'' means the story/narrative of the Material Multiverse and all other planes which are below Limbo like the Sphere of the Gods and so on. The Monitor Sphere is the edge of things within the Multiverse where form and meaning surrender to the nothingness of the Overvoid. I like to see the Monitor Sphere as the unmanifest form of the Multiverse, its most fundamental form. The Source Wall is the limit to thoughts and the Multiverse as well.

Yes, there was no Source Wall in Nil as seen in Final Crisis, but you must remember that the Source Wall was destroyed during the Death of the New Gods' storyline which happened before Final Crisis. And yes, there's some elements that contradicted Final Crisis. Yet, the Death of the Gods storyline was mentioned, which mean that the event still happened. This also means that nothing contradicts the Map of the Multiverse since the Source wall was always the limit to the Monitor Sphere, but was destroyed during an event that happened before the Final Crisis.

 

[Xearsay]

The Monitor Sphere is within Grant Morrison's Map of the Multiverse.

Limbo is the furthest edge of the manifest DC Universe. ''The manifest DC Universe'' means the story/narrative of the Material Multiverse and all other planes which are below Limbo like the Sphere of the Gods and so on. The Monitor Sphere is the edge of things within the Multiverse where form and meaning surrender to the nothingness of the Overvoid. I like to see the Monitor Sphere as the unmanifest form of the Multiverse, its most fundamental form. The Source Wall is the limit to thoughts and the the Multiverse as well.

Yes, there was no Source Wall in Nil as seen in Final Crisis, but you must remember that the Source Wall was destroyed during the Death of the New Gods' storyline which happened before Final Crisis. And yes, there's some elements that contradicted Final Crisis. Yet, the Death of the Gods storyline was mentioned, which mean that the event still happened. This also means that nothing contradicts the Map of the Multiverse since the Source wall was always the limit to the Monitor Sphere, but was destroyed during an event that happened before the Final Crisis.

I see what you’re saying but what do you consider to be “creation” in DC? I’m asking because I realize this is kind of what my question comes down to.

Also being on the map doesn’t mean it’s a part of creation. The Overvoid is highlighted on the map and it’s not a part of creation.

 

[Xearsay]

When?

During Final Crisis and the Unexpected

Multiverse refers to different things in different contexts. In many instances, multiverse simply refers to the Orrery. However, on the DC Map of the Multiverse, the Monitor Sphere and Limbo are both clearly a part of the

This doesn’t really matter because for the Monitor Sphere it’s implied to be outside of all creation that was discovered.

Why would we assume by default that it’s not a part of creation?

That’s not what I’m saying.

This has been retconned since the introduction of Perpetua. The idea that Dax Novu was a probe that interacted with "story" to create the Monitor race is no longer DC canon.

Besides the fact that final crisis never specifies what the Monitors were actually sprung from. The story generator Dax interacted with was directly specified to be Monitor and Anti Monitor during multiversity.

 

[Deagonx]

During Final Crisis and the Unexpected

Scans?

because for the Monitor Sphere it’s implied to be outside of all creation that was discovered.

How do you figure this? You can't decide unwritten 'implications' unilaterally and expect that to he considered evidence.

that final crisis never specifies what the Monitors were actually sprung from.

What? Yes it does. "Becomes this history of a once-mighty race of Supergods." The interaction between Dax and story literally formed both the race and their history retroactively.

The story generator Dax interacted with was directly specified to be Monitor and Anti Monitor during multiversity.

Scans of this "direct specification?"

 

[Xearsay]

Scans?


How do you figure this? You can't decide unwritten 'implications' unilaterally and expect that to he considered evidence.

I'm not deciding in whatever your manner you're trying to express. I'm simply mentioning information from the issues. There's also more scans such as the one talking about Nil being the gateway to a Multiverse of positive matter.

What? Yes it does. "Becomes this history of a once-mighty race of Supergods." The interaction between Dax and story literally formed both the race and their history retroactively.


Scans of this "direct specification?"

 

[Deagonx]

I'm simply mentioning information from the issues.

So you're basing this whole "outside of creation" piece on a single statement from Superman, who didn't know Limbo or Nil existed shortly prior? He's not exactly an expert, and we have no reason to believe him saying that is meant to be some sort of verdict on the relationship between Nil and The Presence, who was never mentioned in that storyline.

Likewise, you said it was "directly specified" that the "story" Dax interacted with was Monitor and Anti-Monitor, but your scan doesn't say this in any way. It refers to Anti-Monitor as "Story Machine" not simply story, and never says that Dax interacted with him. Likewise, it doesn't make sense in context. Monitor-Mind is defined in relation to the Flaw, and of Monitor-Mind is Monitor Born and Anti-Monitor. Dax enters the Flaw and is contaminated. Why would you interpret this as Dax interacted with Anti-Monitor and Monitor if they are born of Monitor-Mind, which is an entity explicitly characterized as being separate from the flaw?

 

[Xearsay]

So you're basing this whole "outside of creation" piece on a single statement from Superman, who didn't know Limbo or Nil existed shortly prior? He's not exactly an expert, and we have no reason to believe him saying that is meant to be some sort of verdict on the relationship between Nil and The Presence, who was never mentioned in that storyline.

This isn't really a good argument. It doesn't matter if he didn't know Nil existed. Superman in that same scan could perceive the Monitors true nature as vampires. So his senses are actually heightened here.

Likewise, you said it was "directly specified" that the "story" Dax interacted with was Monitor and Anti-Monitor, but your scan doesn't say this in any way. It refers to Anti-Monitor as "Story Machine" not simply story, and never says that Dax interacted with him. Likewise, it doesn't make sense in context. Monitor-Mind is defined in relation to the Flaw, and of Monitor-Mind is Monitor Born and Anti-Monitor. Dax enters the Flaw and is contaminated. Why would you interpret this as Dax interacted with Anti-Monitor and Monitor if they are born of Monitor-Mind, which is an entity explicitly characterized as being separate from the flaw?

Story machine just means they're the machine that generated story. Also in the Final Crisis text you brought up, it just mentions legend taking root and story spreading like a contagion. It doesn't actually mention Dax doing anything to create the Monitor race.

 

[Elizio33]

I see what you’re saying but what do you consider to be “creation” in DC? I’m asking because I realize this is kind of what my question comes down to.

Also being on the map doesn’t mean it’s a part of creation. The Overvoid is highlighted on the map and it’s not a part of creation.

I was talking about the sphere of which the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall are part. Not the Overvoid, the white void on the Multiverse Map. So, i consider the whole sphere as creation.

 

[Deagonx]

It doesn't matter if he didn't know Nil existed

Why not? He doesn't know much about the multiverse so why would we interpret a phrase like that to indicate something about the Presence? Why is creation in this context being interpreted as "stuff the Presence made?"

Story machine just means they're the machine that generated story

This is never indicated in the scan and it's never indicated that the "story machine" is why the flaw contaminated Dax.

it just mentions legend taking root and story spreading like a contagion. It doesn't actually mention Dax doing anything to create the Monitor race

I'm aware, Dax didn't do anything to create the Monitors. The story spreading like contagion became the history of the Monitors, creating them retroactively.

 

[Xearsay]

I was talking about the sphere of which the Monitor Sphere and the Source Wall are part. Not the Overvoid, the white void on the Multiverse Map.

I know. I'm just asking for if the giant sphere on the map was ever specified as creation. To me it seems more like the map is the DCU and the manifested or created part of it is limited at limbo and the Monitor Sphere is outside functioning as a gate way.

 

[Elizio33]

I know. I'm just asking for if the giant sphere on the map was ever specified as creation. To me it seems more like the map is the DCU and the manifested or created part of it is limited at limbo and the Monitor Sphere is outside functioning as a gate way.

Well, we know that the limit of the "Sphere"/Multiverse is the Source Wall. Outside of the wall there's other Creations/Multiverses which are part of the Greater Omniverse. The Sphere on the Multiverse Map represents the main Multiverse nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Deagonx]

and the manifested or created part of it

Why are you equating these two terms? "Manifest" as an adjective means clear or obvious. It has nothing to do with creation or the word create.

 

[Elizio33]

The Monitor Sphere is the unmanifested and the most fundamental form of the Multiverse beyond Limbo which is the furthest edge of the manifest reality created by Perpetua.

 

[Xearsay]

Why not?

Whether or not he knew Nil existed prior to entering the Thought Robot plays plays no role in invalidating his description of the jar that Nil is outside of.

This is never indicated in the scan and it's never indicated that the "story machine" is why the flaw contaminated Dax.

That's not what I'm saying.

I'm aware, Dax didn't do anything to create the Monitors.

Well then why did you say he did?

The story spreading like contagion became the history of the Monitors, creating them retroactively.

Yes.

 

[Deagonx]

Whether or not he knew Nil existed prior to entering the Thought Robot plays plays no role in invalidating his description of the jar that Nil is outside of.

Okay, then why are we interpreting him calling it "creation" as a reference to something Presence related?

That's not what I'm saying.

You said Dax interacted with Anti-Monitor, but you haven't provided any evidence.

Well then why did you say he did?

I didn't. The interaction created the Monitor race, hence "to" but it was not an intentional action or creation feat from Dax.

 

[Xearsay]

Okay, then why are we interpreting him calling it "creation" as a reference to something Presence related?

Well isn't creation what was created by God?

You said Dax interacted with Anti-Monitor, but you haven't provided any evidence.

I didn't mean to say that. I accidently got caught up in what you were saying. What I meant to say was the story generator is Anti monitor and Monitor.

I didn't. The interaction created the Monitor race, hence "to" but it was not an intentional action or creation feat from Dax.

That's never said in the scan. After Monitor Mind became haunted while looking at the Thought Robot, legend took root and story spread. No where does it mention some interaction with Dax that created the Monitors.

 

[Deagonx]

Well isn't creation what was created by God?

What is your basis for that in the context of Superman saying that, or even DC in general? Creation just means "that which was created."

What I meant to say was the story generator is Anti monitor and Monitor.

I mean, that's fine, but that doesn't really change anything about the fact that Dax's origin changed.

After Monitor Mind became haunted while looking at the Thought Robot, legend took root and story spread. No where does it mention some interaction with Dax that created the Monitors.

"Blinded, split in two, the probe withdraws." It was the probe's interaction with the flaw, and it's subsequent contamination, that preceded the legend taking root. It doesn't just happen coincidentally right after Dax looked at it.

 

[Xearsay]

This is going a little off topic. What do you mean by basis of the context? I don’t understand what you’re asking. Why would all of creation mean something other than all of creation? And the Yahweh part I presumed that’s how it was being treated on the wiki. If it’s not then my mistake on that part.

You never proved Dax’s origin was retconned.

I already debunked that. Legend takes root after Monitor Mind becomes haunted by the Thought Robot.

 

[Deagonx]

Why would all of creation mean something other than all of creation?

Well we know factually that there are multiverses outside of Nil, so it's wrong either way.

You never proved Dax’s origin was retconned

Yes, I have. He was given a new origin in Unexpected and Justice League.

I already debunked that. Legend takes root after Monitor Mind becomes haunted by the Thought Robot.

This doesn't conflict with what I'm saying. This occurred because of Dax's interaction with the flaw.

 

[Xearsay]

Yeah well the greater Omniverse has nothing to do with my post.

No he isn’t. The justice league origin was redefined for the Monitors but it excludes Dax Novu because his origin is completely separate from the rest of the Monitors.

Where does it express on the scan that legend took root because of Dax Novu’s interaction with the flaw?

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah well the greater Omniverse has nothing to do with my post.

Cool? It has to do with the term creation. This isn't a response to the error in your argument.

The justice league origin was redefined for the Monitors but it excludes Dax Novu because his origin is completely separate from the rest of the Monitors.

There is no indication of this. Likewise Unexpected also altered the origin.

Where does it express on the scan that legend took root because of Dax Novu’s interaction with the flaw?

Thats the series of events as described in the comic.

 

[Xearsay]

Cool? It has to do with the term creation. This isn't a response to the error in your argument.

There is no indication of this. Likewise Unexpected also altered the origin.

Thats the series of events as described in the comic.

What does it have to do with the term creation?

lol this is going so off topic. you don’t believe me you can make a whole control thread talking about it. However right now I’ll stick to using the established origins we have on the site.

No it’s not. The scan explicitly showcases the flaw being sealed and Monitor Minds interaction with Thought Robot right before legend took root and story spread. You’re literally cutting out what’s happening in the scan.

 

[Deagonx]

What does it have to do with the term creation?

You said "why would all of creation not mean all of creation" and then dipped and dodged when presented with the fact that the omniverse exists outside that jar.

So again, why are you defining creation in this context as presence related? He's far above it anyways.

However right now I’ll stick to using the established origins we have on the site.

Lol. Or you can go with DC canon.

The scan explicitly showcases Monitor Minds interaction with Thought Robot right before legend took root and story spread. You’re literally intentionally leaving that part out.

And you see the part where that interaction is followed by the probe splitting in two?

 

[Garchomp777]

The source is the highest point in creation. What are you even talking about?

 

[Xearsay]

You said "why would all of creation not mean all of creation" and then dipped and dodged when presented with the fact that the omniverse exists outside that jar.

So again, why are you defining creation in this context as presence related? He's far above it anyways.



Lol. Or you can go with DC canon.



And you see the part where that interaction is followed by the probe splitting in two?

Last comment because I’m not wasting time with you anymore.

I didn’t dodge anything. The Omniverse was never used interchangeably with that description. So what you brought up doesn’t even make sense.

Funny because DC Canon saids the opposite of what you’re saying.

Ok. And? Are you trying to imply that the probe split into the Monitor race? If so that’s literally never expressed panel.

 

[Xearsay]

The source is the highest point in creation. What are you even talking about?

The Source sits at the center of the Omniverse. I don’t know where you’re getting that it’s point within creation from.

 

[Garchomp777]

The Source sits at the center of the Omniverse. I don’t know where your getting from that it’s point within creation.

When Lucifer went beyond the source he literally said its the highest point of creation. And characters like S'ivaa were going to destroy all creation, and S'ivaa scales to orion and darkseid who can destroy the source

 

[Xearsay]

When Lucifer went beyond the source he literally said its the highest point of creation. And characters like S'ivaa were going to destroy all creation, and S'ivaa scales to orion and darkseid who can destroy the source

Can I see a scan of Lucifer stating that?

 

[Deagonx]

I didn’t dodge anything. The Omniverse was never used interchangeably with that description

Okay? But clearly all of creation doesn't mean all of creation, as it ignores the creation outside of it. You've repeatedly failed to resolve this error in your theory.

Funny because DC Canon saids the opposite of what you’re saying

No, it doesn't. It says the Monitors were born from Mar Novu. Mandrakk was a Monitor.

Are you trying to imply that the probe split into the Monitor race?

No. The interaction with story became the history of Monitors.

 

[Amakasu]

When Lucifer went beyond the source he literally said its the highest point of creation.

Not exactly, he was just visiting the Alephs which are below the Source, and he says that there's a source out there presumably in the overvoid and that he ignored it. At the edge of creation is the source wall and the Alephs.

And characters like S'ivaa were going to destroy all creation, and S'ivaa scales to orion and darkseid who can destroy the source

Destroying creation ≠ scaling to the Source. The source exists outside of creation, plus Darkseid and the Orion scaling to the source is retconed since Darkseid in his soul fire form literally was stalmating an aspect of the source.

 

[Deagonx]

No one scales to the Source/Presence in the most current canon.

 

[Xearsay]

The Monitor Sphere is the unmanifested and the most fundamental form of the Multiverse beyond Limbo which is the furthest edge of the manifest reality created by Perpetua.

I see what you're saying.
Also I have another question. Why do the Endless scale to the Monitor Sphere?

The reasoning was this scan, but as we know the Monitor Sphere wasn't made by the Presence. So I'm confused as to why they would compose the Monitor Sphere.

 

[Deagonx]

but as shown the Monitor Sphere wasn't made by the Presence.

You haven't shown that. The only evidence you provided was Superman calling the Orrery "all of creation" and then failing to expand upon why this says anything about the Presence's relationship to Nil.

 

[Xearsay]

You haven't shown that. The only evidence you provided was Superman calling the Orrery "all of creation" and then failing to expand upon why this says anything about the Presence's relationship to Nil.

There's a scan stating the Monitor Sphere formed with the current universal structure and you know this scan so idk why you're bugging me over it. And we know it formed at some point around the Thought Robot after the flaw was made.

Also that scan about the Nil wasn't meant to say anything about the Presence's relationship to Nil. So I don't know where you're getting that intention from.

 

[Deagonx]

There's a scan stating the Monitor Sphere formed with the current universal structure and you know this scan so idk why you're bugging me over it

Okay. What exactly do you believe that indicates as it relies to the Presence and Nil, and what is your logical basis for that belief? You seem to be implying this proves a point of yours, but haven't elaborated why that's the case.

Also that scan about the Nil wasn't meant to say anything about the Presence's relationship to Nil. So I don't know where you're getting that intention from.

A few comments ago you were literally arguing that "creation" is the stuff God made and therefore the Orrery being all of creation meant Nil wasn't made by the Presence. Then you evaded the argument when presented with the fact that the Omniverse exists outside the Orrery and still constitutes creation.

 

[Xearsay]

Okay. What exactly do you believe that indicates as it relies to the Presence and Nil, and what is your logical basis for that belief? You seem to be implying this proves a point of yours, but haven't elaborated why that's the case.

My point is that the scan mentions nothing about the Presence being the creator of Nil. Which means there's no evidence to prove he created it.

A few comments ago you were literally arguing that "creation" is the stuff God made and therefore the Orrery being all of creation meant Nil wasn't made by the Presence. Then you evaded the argument when presented with the fact that the Omniverse exists outside the Orrery and still constitutes creation.

What are you talking about? All I did was ask you a question, "Well isn't creation what was created by God?" in response to you randomly asking me "why are we interpreting him calling it "creation" as a reference to something Presence related?" Which is funny because when I brought up that scan about creation, I never even mentioned the Presence lol. In my next comment I would then state that this is going "off topic." No where did I confirm that I was arguing because they're outside creation that they weren't created by God. You just started assuming this was my argument from the beginning.

 

[Deagonx]

My point is that the scan mentions nothing about the Presence being the creator of Nil. Which means there's no evidence to prove he created it.

Okay? He gave Perpetua the energy to create the multiverse. He was responsible for resetting it when Perpetua was sealed away. Why would we exclude Nil from any of this when it's part of the DCU?

Which is funny because when I brought up that scan about creation, I never even mentioned the Presence lol.

This thread is literally about the Presence, and you offered it as evidence in relation to your claim.

 

[Xearsay]

Okay? He gave Perpetua the energy to create the multiverse. He was responsible for resetting it when Perpetua was sealed away. Why would we exclude Nil from any of this when it's part of the DCU?

The multiverse Perpetua made is not the current universal structure. The Monitor Sphere formed into the current one around the Thought Robot.

This thread is literally about the Presence, and you offered it as evidence in relation to your claim.

This thread isn’t just about the Presence lol. Also once again that isn’t what I was arguing.