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I think this thread is going nowhere.
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Why Are Wonder Woman, Zeus, Ares (DCEU) only 6-B?
- Thread starter Pepper14832
- Start date
- Status
- 833
- 52
@Matt, but that line of dialogue from Ares is very important to this entire discussion. Zeus potentially being the strongest character (or equal to Superman) doesn't have to be an outlier anymore and we don't need to rescale older Ares from WW as he should be comparable to Zeus in a weakened stated since he was the survivor. If we surmise that Zeus has a similar powerset to Ares ( as Ares could also manipulate lightning) plus his life creation ― the upgrade is very logical and still wouldn't exceed the tectonic tiers.
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I feel this should be closed.Antvasima said:
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Some questions are still unanswered. Hellbeast1 posted proof of Ares being (somewhat) weakened.
Anyway, it's unquantifiable, so i personally agree with you two, but i think some questions need to be answered before closing this.
Anyway, it's unquantifiable, so i personally agree with you two, but i think some questions need to be answered before closing this.
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@Matt & Ant, I hope this doesn't come off rude (not my intention) but @Hellbeast1 literally introduced a link that could resolve this scaling issue, why is it being dismissed? Was there any proof that Ares fully healed? If not then this has to be considered. We gave Superman his offscreen tectonic feat (which was considered an outlier) when WW came out due to Zeus' island feat. Here we have a line of dialogue that resolves Zeus one shotting unity, and Ares scaling to him from that feat.
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Okay to sum it up:
- Ares and Zeus were the two Gods to chase off Steppenwolf with only two attacks (albeit they didn't completely defeat him like the JL).
- It took most of the JL landing attacks on Steppenwolf, plus the destruction of his electroaxe (source of his power) to defeat him - seemingly - for good.
-Zeus one-shot the unity.
-It took both Cyborg (with his technopathy) and Superman (with his strength) to separate the unity.
-Yet only Superman is 6A but not Zeus or Ares who defeated Steppenwolf in two attacks and had Zeus one shot the motherbox unity himself.
-One of the reasons some wouldn't accept the scaling was the assumption that Ares was fully healed in Wonder Woman. The line of dialogue in the clip contradicts that assumption.
- Ares and Zeus were the two Gods to chase off Steppenwolf with only two attacks (albeit they didn't completely defeat him like the JL).
- It took most of the JL landing attacks on Steppenwolf, plus the destruction of his electroaxe (source of his power) to defeat him - seemingly - for good.
-Zeus one-shot the unity.
-It took both Cyborg (with his technopathy) and Superman (with his strength) to separate the unity.
-Yet only Superman is 6A but not Zeus or Ares who defeated Steppenwolf in two attacks and had Zeus one shot the motherbox unity himself.
-One of the reasons some wouldn't accept the scaling was the assumption that Ares was fully healed in Wonder Woman. The line of dialogue in the clip contradicts that assumption.
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How does it contradict it?
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@Matt, First consider that this dialogue (about him being weaker) was stated while he was wrapped in the Lasso of Truth.
Ares says: Mankind stole this world from us. They ruined it, day by day. And I, the only one wise enough to see it, was left too weak to stop them (after being hit by Zeus' lightning). All these years I have struggled alone, whispering into their ears."
Yadayadayada then Ares talks about the armistice, which he says "they cannot keep in the hope they will destroy themselves but it has never been enough, until you (Diana)."
So he explicitly states that he was left weakened and never implied that he returned to full power. In fact, it sounds like the only way he could destroy humanity was by having humans do it themselves, but then Diana comes along and he sees her as an ally to help him.
Why attempt to destroy humanity through slow manipulation when he hates them so much that he killed his own family? Answer: he no longer has the power to, hence why he needs humans to destroy themselves.
Ares says: Mankind stole this world from us. They ruined it, day by day. And I, the only one wise enough to see it, was left too weak to stop them (after being hit by Zeus' lightning). All these years I have struggled alone, whispering into their ears."
Yadayadayada then Ares talks about the armistice, which he says "they cannot keep in the hope they will destroy themselves but it has never been enough, until you (Diana)."
So he explicitly states that he was left weakened and never implied that he returned to full power. In fact, it sounds like the only way he could destroy humanity was by having humans do it themselves, but then Diana comes along and he sees her as an ally to help him.
Why attempt to destroy humanity through slow manipulation when he hates them so much that he killed his own family? Answer: he no longer has the power to, hence why he needs humans to destroy themselves.
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I agree with Heatforce. Zeus and Ares should receive the upgrade. The reason Ares lost to WW is because he was severely weakened after his fight against the Gods which he himself clearly states in the given clip (about being weakened) .
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Honestly, thinking that WWI humanity > Ares is absurd by any stretch of the imagination, be him 7-C or 6-B.
He said those things because he was trying to get Diana to become his ally.
He said those things because he was trying to get Diana to become his ally.
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Thing is in fiction you can't have everything perfect. Logically even a Town level guy should be above WWI humanity but then again Island-Country level superman got knocked out by a town level nuke.
I would rather take Ares' statement seriously instead of assuming "He said those things because he was trying to get Diana to become his ally".
I would rather take Ares' statement seriously instead of assuming "He said those things because he was trying to get Diana to become his ally".
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Superman was very weakened by Kryptonite. And yes, Ares was just trying to get Diana to join him. Once it failed, he was perfectly fine with killing her and continuing his goal by himself.
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@Matt, Remember he was under the effects of the lasso so he had to tell the truth. But if you consider what he said hyperbole, remember who exists in the DCEU that could potentially ally with humans besides Diana: Green Lanterns, Enchantress, Wizard Shazam, Black Adam, Atlanteans, etc. Either way, the fact is Ares stated he had become weaker and never implied he was fully healed or else why the subversion?
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There was literally no Green Lanterns, nor Enchantress, nor Shazam, nor Black Adam on Earth at the time.
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We don't know though. We know Waller said Enchantress was over 5,000 years old so I'm sure Ares was aware of her and Incubus. The Green Lanterns intervened in the past so just knowing they exist may have caused Ares to be cautious. Now I admit that suggesting The Wizard and Black Adam are threats may have been too much but we know their movies are coming and if their lore is close to the comics then they've been around for a long time, long enough for the old gods to be aware of them (or at least the wizard).
May I ask why you still disagree? I admitted in an earlier comment that I was using head canon (as you declared that I was) to surmise that Ares was weaker but now we have a line of dialogue and we know Ares wasn't lying as he was wrapped in the lasso. If you're still unsure we could simply state that Zeus and (prime) Ares are possibly 6A and readdress this when we have more information. Would that be a fair compromise?
May I ask why you still disagree? I admitted in an earlier comment that I was using head canon (as you declared that I was) to surmise that Ares was weaker but now we have a line of dialogue and we know Ares wasn't lying as he was wrapped in the lasso. If you're still unsure we could simply state that Zeus and (prime) Ares are possibly 6A and readdress this when we have more information. Would that be a fair compromise?
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Enhantress i think is 6,000 years old, and yeah its very likely Ares knew of her considering she was a God to the Mayans and Aztecs and Ares was probably in the area at some point.
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It should also be noted that Ares was going back to the exact same strategy, manipulating conflict in secret.
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There is nothing that indicates that Ares and Zeus are 6-A, only one feat that contradicts the overall scale of things, and now you try to force into the idea that Ares was weakened.
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^ Not a head-canon, since Ares stated that he was weakened. Just pointing this out as i watch the debate from the sidelines.
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Ares never stated he was weakened. He just says something you are interpreting as being weakened.
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Yeah i'm with Kep he straight up said he was weakened by his battle with Zeus in the War Of The Gods. There's like source and everything.
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"Mankind stole this world from us. They ruined it, day by day. And I, the only one wise enough to see it, was left too weak to stop them"
Not sure if this is a headcanon.
Not sure if this is a headcanon.
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He is talking in past tense, about the time he was imprisoned.
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@Matt, I don't recall Ares being imprisoned? Also, I am using more than just the one feat. As I stated above: It took one attack from Zeus and one attack from Ares to send Steppenwolf running but it takes a couple of good hits from Superman, a decent hit from Aquaman with his quindent and both Superman and Wonder Woman destroying the electroaxe (the source of Step's power) to defeat him the second time? True it can be argued that Steppenwolf probably fought harder against the JL since his exile was weighing on him but that still doesn't explain why Zeus could do with one-shot what it took both Superman and Cyborg to do together. I think simply saying outlier at this point is dismissive.
And even if Ares was talking in the past tense that still doesn't mean he has healed. A person in a bad car wreck can still be left with permanent injury even if most of the surface level wounds are healed. I promise to rewatch Wonder Woman this weekend and if I find any dialogue that contradicts that scene I will notify you.
And even if Ares was talking in the past tense that still doesn't mean he has healed. A person in a bad car wreck can still be left with permanent injury even if most of the surface level wounds are healed. I promise to rewatch Wonder Woman this weekend and if I find any dialogue that contradicts that scene I will notify you.
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He wasn't imprisoned he just got beat the hell up by Zeus' final bolt. Also he looks the same when he was discussing his being wounded to how he does in WW. Compare this to his appearence in JL in which he's a giant with insane definition.
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That's just a difference in actors and design style. Wonder Woman Ares is covered in full-plate armour. JL Ares is barely wearing a thing, and was also just a cameo appearance played by a bodybuilder.
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Yes, I've seen these concept arts.
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What do you reckon? Could they be utilized or no?
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No because they are not accurate to the movie designs. Zeus looks nothing like that.
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Good point but the same could be said of Ares' image
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With that said we should get back to the topic of the potential upgrade at hand.
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I am against the upgrades and agree with Matt.
That said Ares' picture is a bit out of place.
That said Ares' picture is a bit out of place.
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Like, there are 0 good pics of Ares from the movie.
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Unless you want to use a picture of him in his civilian clothing.
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