Who's Destined to Win? Medaka Kurokami vs Makoto Muraki

[Agnaa]

The match will take place in Chofu. Speed will be equalised. Other than that, Standard Battle Assumptions apply.

Medaka Kurokami: 2 (@FantaRin_The_First, @Alexander)

Makoto Muraki: 2 (@JustANormalPerson01, @Dragon)

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

What does Muraki starts off with?

 

[Agnaa]

For the designated "enemies" we've heard of him fighting in order to save the world, he'd perform a miracle to be able to reach them (flying, or quantum tunneling through concrete) and then kill them with one punch.

For people that he doesn't like, he's done some combination of turning them into weak animals, BFRing them, and changing the memories of everyone else to not realize he did that. Or he stabs pencils into their foreheads and seals skin over the wound, leaving a tent of skin.

He's threatened to kill some military personnel, and threatened to turn them into idiots.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

For the designated "enemies" we've heard of him fighting in order to save the world, he'd perform a miracle to be able to reach them (flying, or quantum tunneling through concrete) and then kill them with one punch.

For people that he doesn't like, he's done some combination of turning them into weak animals, BFRing them, and changing the memories of everyone else to not realize he did that. Or he stabs pencils into their foreheads and seals skin over the wound, leaving a tent of skin.

He's threatened to kill some military personnel, and threatened to turn them into idiots.

I don't think that is enough for Medaka to not be able to use All Fiction to nope all of that way from her. Never mind all of Medaka's other abilities like Scar Dead, which might really **** Makoto up with the hole in his head, or the fact that Medaka just needs to look at Makoto to copy his ability. Discount that, Medaka can one punch Makoto due to the massive AP difference and won't be hurt by any of Makoto's attacks due to her vast Dura advantage.

 

[Agnaa]

All Fiction has never been shown to undo BFR, Transmutation, or Mind Manip.

Medaka doesn't have Scar Dead on by default, and Scar Dead only has a range of about a dozen meters.

Medaka does not copy abilities by looking at people, she needs to hear the description or see it in use.

Medaka would need to close the distance of 4km in a speed equal match against an opponent who has thought-based hax. That ain't happening lmao, physical attacks are useless here due to neither of them being able to deploy them at range.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

All Fiction has never been shown to undo BFR, Transmutation, or Mind Manip.

Medaka doesn't have Scar Dead on by default, and Scar Dead only has a range of about a dozen meters.

Medaka does not copy abilities by looking at people, she needs to hear the description or see it in use.

Medaka would need to close the distance of 4km in a speed equal match against an opponent who has thought-based hax. That ain't happening lmao, physical attacks are useless here due to neither of them being able to deploy them at range.

Eh? I would think the causality manipulation part of All Fiction kinda makes not seen undoing point moot considering that messing with cause and effect would be beyond such things. But to avoid relying on All Fiction too much... Medaka has Zapping Study, so even if Medaka gets turned into an animal, she should have some measure of thought within her to undo getting transmuted. She also has resistance to Mind Manip (probs a baseline resistance) but unless Makoto has feats of bypassing people's mind manip resistance, Medaka should be able to resist it. BFR is an unknown, but again... All Fiction.

Another thing is Kurokami Phantom. A speed amp... which doesn't get affected by speed equal to my knowledge, so Medaka can, in fact, cross the distance of 4km in an instant. So if Makoto decides to get physical first, Medaka kinda insta-wins.

... Although, if there are 4km away from each other, and under SBA, I do think Medaka would be more inclined to use All Fiction right away since it is the only thing that can reach Makoto aside from her deciding to close the distance with Kurokami Phantom.

Also, just to ask... Why did you use Medaka and not... Misogi?

 

[Agnaa]

Eh? I would think the causality manipulation part of All Fiction kinda makes not seen undoing point moot considering that messing with cause and effect would be beyond such things.

Doesn't matter what the ability can affect if you can't activate the ability (or can't activate it on the relevant thing).

Medaka has Zapping Study, so even if Medaka gets turned into an animal, she should have some measure of thought within her to undo getting transmuted.

idk how Zapping Study would help with that.

She also has resistance to Mind Manip (probs a baseline resistance) but unless Makoto has feats of bypassing people's mind manip resistance, Medaka should be able to resist it.

True!

BFR is an unknown, but again... All Fiction.

You'd have to NLF All Fiction pretty hard to say it works on BFR. It couldn't even be used on someone dying Kumagawa's skin blue since that wasn't a real attack.

Another thing is Kurokami Phantom. A speed amp... which doesn't get affected by speed equal to my knowledge, so Medaka can, in fact, cross the distance of 4km in an instant. So if Makoto decides to get physical first, Medaka kinda insta-wins.

Kurokami Phantom is nowhere near that much of a speed amp. It'd take her about a minute to cross that gap.

... Although, if there are 4km away from each other, and under SBA, I do think Medaka would be more inclined to use All Fiction right away since it is the only thing that can reach Makoto aside from her deciding to close the distance with Kurokami Phantom.

tbh idk if she has the senses to accurately use AF on him at that sorta distance, I think she might need to close the distance regardless. And hey, if that's your view of her standard tactics, that's your view, we haven't seen her in too many long-distance fights.

Also, just to ask... Why did you use Medaka and not... Misogi?

Medaka and Makoto have a nice parallel in that they're both destined to win, Medaka due to being the main character, and Makoto due to being the saviour of the world. I felt like that worked better than matching Makoto up against a loser.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Medaka's base speed is Relativistic abd Kurokami Phantom is listed as Speed of Light to FTL, while Makoto's is just Athletic Human. While speed equal downgrades Medaka's speed to Athletic Human, speed equal doesn't affect the speed discrepancy of reaction time/projectiles/summons/amps, to my knowledge, so if Medaka uses KP, then Makoto gets blitz'd.

I think, anyhow.

Of course, this is assuming Medaka's CIS doesn't kick in and causes her to decide to do something dumb; which might range from not using Kurokami Phantom to close the distance or deciding to just "tank" Makoto's attack since she thinks that she would be able to fix it with All Fiction.

... She also has All Fiction's Pseudo-Teleportation and Pseudo-Time Stop thingy, but... that is mainly a Misogi thing, so she probably won't do it as a first move unlike Misogi's.

 

[Agnaa]

Medaka's base speed is Relativistic abd Kurokami Phantom is listed as Speed of Light to FTL, while Makoto's is just Athletic Human. While speed equal downgrades Medaka's speed to Athletic Human, speed equal doesn't affect the speed discrepancy of reaction time/projectiles/summons/amps, to my knowledge, so if Medaka uses KP, then Makoto gets blitz'd.

I think, anyhow.

Yeah, but what that means is that Kurokami Phantom has the same relative boost, i.e. 10-10.1x, which on Athletic Human puts her at about 77 m/s, which would cross 4km in 52 seconds. Even when she reaches Makoto, it's not a form-change; she doesn't get 10x amped speed forever. It lets her charge forward, punch/grab the opponent (if they're still in line), and maybe do a single U-turn. With his senses he'd have a decent shot at using an ability on her in the way, or flying into the air to get out of her reach.

To the rest of your post all I have to say is trueeeee.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Speed Equal is just a very confusing subject, tbh. I have seen matches which have been speed equal'd but had attacks/reaction time/summons/etc stay the same, and matches that assume everything speed-wise has been made completely equal, although, I have seen the former more often than the latter.

Going back to the match...

Medaka has a few win-cons: punch, speed amp then punch, speed amp to get close and use one of her countless abilities, or simply using All Fiction to insta-win.

Makoto has three win-cons: transmutation, BFR, and mind manip.

Medaka is held back by possibly holding the CIS ball, and Makoto is held back by the lack of knowledge of All Fiction, her stats, and mind manip resistance; and then there is Medaka's Supernatural Luck which might have Makoto decide to use mind manip first to give Medaka an opening or might make him think that it won't be a bad idea to try to punch Medaka. I.E the Medaka getting lucky win-con.

Medaka also holds the skill, experience, and intelligence advantage, but they won't be important factors here.

 

[Agnaa]

Speed Equal is just a very confusing subject, tbh. I have seen matches which have been speed equal'd but had attacks/reaction time/summons/etc stay the same, and matches that assume everything speed-wise has been made completely equal, although, I have seen the former more often than the latter.

Yeah those rules weren't codified until relatively recently, but they are written down to function as I describe them:

The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.

Speed Amplification techniques are assumed to grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.

Makoto has three win-cons: transmutation, BFR, and mind manip.

I'd remove mind manip entirely because of Medaka's resistance, tbh.

and then there is Medaka's Supernatural Luck

I'd point out that Makoto has something similar. Since he's destined to win, if there's only one way to win, even if it's very unlikely, that outcome will occur.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Won't they cancel each out or smth, then? Idk. What happens when Makoto's thingy and Medaka's Luck go against each other belong in a discussion of metafiction than a verse-board, so I won't touch on it and just assume they cancel each other out.

Personally, I am on the side of Medaka FRA since if Makoto ***** up once, he kinda loses; but if Medaka ***** up, she has a chance of being able to recover from it since Makoto has only three notable combat hax and she resists one of them - she essentially has a 33% chance of recovery, more or less.

 

[Agnaa]

Counted.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

How to is Makoto's luck? Because Medaka is able of easily do things of 1/(1,000,000^1,000,000)% (guessing at first time a code with 1-in-a-million posibility and being able to do so a million of times in a row), and scales way above abnormals which are able to do the same

 

[Agnaa]

How to is Makoto's luck?

Ignoring the physically impossible (and thus unquantifiable) stuff of using his luck to fly, travel through time, or warp space. He used it to quantum tunnel through the concrete roof of a building. I can't find the exact odds of this (although it should be possible to calculate). I found some websites saying that the chance for a human to quantum tunnel through a wall is around 1 in e^10^35 (for those unfamiliar, e is a number roughly equal to 2.72).

guessing at first time a code with 1-in-a-million posibility and being able to do so a million of times in a row

I would caution that Zenkichi stated that (and Akune agreed) rather than it coming from a feat, and that neither of them utilized that, instead opting to break down the door. Whether that's because of Akune's whim, neither of them being able to figure out which number Medaka forced it to, or Medaka not actually being able to force it more than two times, we can't say.

But if we do take that at face value, I think it's around 1 in 10^6^10^6, solidly above Makoto's value.

and scales way above abnormals which are able to do the same

Other Abnormals are not able to do that. Medaka has way better luck than other Abnormals, and she's the only one with a statement like that.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I would caution that Zenkichi stated that (and Akune agreed) rather than it coming from a feat, and that neither of them utilized that, instead opting to break down the door. Whether that's because of Akune's whim, neither of them being able to figure out which number Medaka forced it to, or Medaka not actually being able to force it more than two times, we can't say.

It is used on his profile, so it should be at least considered.

Other Abnormals are not able to do that. Medaka has way better luck than other Abnormals, and she's the only one with a statement like that.

Others abnormals can pass through that door all days without a problem. Even if we don't consideer they being able to do it a million time in a row, they should be able to do so many times in a row, otherwise they couldn't enter to the base as commonly as they do.

Anyway, if I've read correctly, Makoto starts by either Mind Manipulation, Transmutation or BFR. Medaka does not start with hax, she usually leads with talking or Kurokami Phantomp, and once those abilities are shown useless he proves all his haxes as he did against Iihiko.

So, if both lucks nullify each other, I think Makoto has more chances to winning than Medaka

 

[Agnaa]

Others abnormals can pass through that door all days without a problem. Even if we don't consideer they being able to do it a million time in a row, they should be able to do so many times in a row, otherwise they couldn't enter to the base as commonly as they do.

Maybe some; we know that there's an elevator which requires a particular combination of kanji and hiragana, and that only a few Abnormals can get through it, although the pan get through it, although this is quite impressive since the password length is unlimited. They prolly don't all hit a million in a row like her due to how much variance there is, and how much better Medaka's luck is than anyone else's.

Also, rereading through the relevant chapters I did a bit of an oopsie; even though Zenkichi didn't use it, the door's number was changed to his birthday, so even just going by feats, Medaka's luck is at 10^6^3

Also, I don't usually see this brought up in threads, but Medaka doesn't luck-hax into always winning immediately. In the main series, she was sealed away for a week because she let the opponent attack first. And in Medaka Box Juvenile, she lost to an ordinary middle-schooler; when recounting that time she says that while Zenkichi hypes her up as an undefeated person that would never lose, she sometimes loses; she just wins when she needs to win, which imo casts a bit of doubt on Zenkichi's statement up there.

So, if both lucks nullify each other, I think Makoto has more chances to winning than Medaka

Should I count that as a vote for Makoto, or nah?

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

So, if both lucks nullify each other, I think Makoto has more chances to winning than Medaka

Should I count that as a vote for Makoto, or nah?

Yes

 

[Agnaa]

Counted.

 

[Dragonite007]

I'm voting in Makoto too

 

[Agnaa]

Counted!

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

bump

 

[Agnaa]

Bump!

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Agnaa]

Bump :3

 

[Agnaa]

Bump!

 

[Alexander]

ok I'm here, one question, how the hell exactly will the luck nullification work on medaka, if literally the devil style didn't work on her either. Also, because she just couldn't use scar dead to just open makoto's wounds and make him kill him, or even other abnormalities and skills that are useful. also how she can't just imitate and surpass anything makoto does. BFR, she copies and then escapes from the BFR, or uses All Fiction to get out, transmutation, same as All Fiction and negates the effect of transmutation, practically the combat is decided by medaka skills too broken, copy and strategy.
medaka wins,vote for medaka

 

[Dragonite007]

ok I'm here, one question, how the hell exactly will the luck nullification work on medaka, if literally the devil style didn't work on her either. Also, because she just couldn't use scar dead to just open makoto's wounds and make him kill him, or even other abnormalities and skills that are useful. also how she can't just imitate and surpass anything makoto does. BFR, she copies and then escapes from the BFR, or uses All Fiction to get out, transmutation, same as All Fiction and negates the effect of transmutation, practically the combat is decided by medaka skills too broken, copy and strategy.
medaka wins,vote for medaka

Did you read the full conversation?

 

[Alexander]

Did you read the full conversation?

was that a real question or was it a wonder question

 

[Agnaa]

ok I'm here, one question, how the hell exactly will the luck nullification work on medaka, if literally the devil style didn't work on her either

It wouldn't be nullification, it would just be another character's luck, which does seem to still function as shown by Iihiko (a hero) being able to beat her when Ajimu couldn't, despite both of them being able to nullify Medaka's skills. Also, Devil Style did work on her; she only got 2% of the vote in the election without it, while Zenkichi, a normal, got 62%, when at the start of the series with it active she got 98% of the vote.

Also, because she just couldn't use scar dead to just open makoto's wounds and make him kill him, or even other abnormalities and skills that are useful.

She could, but that's not how she's ever opened a fight. She tends to go literally nothing > physical strikes > minor abilities > strong abilities if everything else does literally nothing (i.e. Iihiko).

also how she can't just imitate and surpass anything makoto does.

She probably could, but that's not very helpful if she's incapped. I do say "probably" because Makoto's powers may be too dissimilar to equalise to MB's skills.

BFR, she copies and then escapes from the BFR, or uses All Fiction to get out, transmutation, same as All Fiction and negates the effect of transmutation

I don't really understand how she'd use them to get out. I guess copying BFR and BFR'ing herself back makes sense, but idk how she's use AF under transmutation. Hell, we explicitly saw that Kumagawa and Medaka were unable to use their skills when they were de-aged, they're not the sort of thing that gets kept no matter their form.

 

[Alexander]

ok I'm here, one question, how the hell exactly will the luck nullification work on medaka, if literally the devil style didn't work on her either

It wouldn't be nullification, it would just be another character's luck, which does seem to still function as shown by Iihiko (a hero) being able to beat her when Ajimu couldn't, despite both of them being able to nullify Medaka's skills. Also, Devil Style did work on her; she only got 2% of the vote in the election without it, while Zenkichi, a normal, got 62%, when at the start of the series with it active she got 98% of the vote.

Also, because she just couldn't use scar dead to just open makoto's wounds and make him kill him, or even other abnormalities and skills that are useful.

She could, but that's not how she's ever opened a fight. She tends to go literally nothing > physical strikes > minor abilities > strong abilities if everything else does literally nothing (i.e. Iihiko).

also how she can't just imitate and surpass anything makoto does.

She probably could, but that's not very helpful if she's incapped. I do say "probably" because Makoto's powers may be too dissimilar to equalise to MB's skills.

BFR, she copies and then escapes from the BFR, or uses All Fiction to get out, transmutation, same as All Fiction and negates the effect of transmutation

I don't really understand how she'd use them to get out. I guess copying BFR and BFR'ing herself back makes sense, but idk how she's use AF under transmutation. Hell, we explicitly saw that Kumagawa and Medaka were unable to use their skills when they were de-aged, they're not the sort of thing that gets kept no matter their form.

the things is medaka is manage to beat zenkichi(even though he has the devil style)so maybe medaka adapt to that and become stronger(like figthing Lihiko)in the end she equal to him,even before she needed end god mode in the maximum power to beat Lihiko.
I accept the second.
As I said, if you can copy a BFR, you can reverse the BFR exerted on you (it's like with garou cosmic fear mode that I managed to get out of the other dimension by copying blast's ability to travel between dimensions)
by the way, the reason why medaka and kumagawa were de-aged is because of a style, and a style uses sounds (words) to generate vibrations, this sometimes causes an alteration in reality with some styles.
that is why the age one worked, because it is a style and a style is almost the only thing that can really be effective against Lihiko, and All Fiction is not effective against Lihiko.
so normally,it will not work or be as effective has normally will be.

 

[Agnaa]

the things is medaka is manage to beat zenkichi(even though he has the devil style)so maybe medaka adapt to that and become stronger

This doesn't prove that the nullification stopped; Devil Style just lets Zenkichi fight people without supernatural luck interfering. They can still just be stronger and/or have better abilities.

Also, while Zenkichi "lost", he was just knocked down and made to bleed a little bit, he was still alive and conscious; a blow like that wouldn't save you from an opponent with hax trying to kill you.

in the end she equal to him,even before she needed end god mode in the maximum power to beat Lihiko.

That isn't the real Iihiko; just an echo of him, we can't say that's as strong as the real one.

As I said, if you can copy a BFR, you can reverse the BFR exerted on you (it's like with garou cosmic fear mode that I managed to get out of the other dimension by copying blast's ability to travel between dimensions)

Yeah fair.

by the way, the reason why medaka and kumagawa were de-aged is because of a style, and a style uses sounds (words) to generate vibrations, this sometimes causes an alteration in reality with some styles.
that is why the age one worked, because it is a style and a style is almost the only thing that can really be effective against Lihiko, and All Fiction is not effective against Lihiko.
so normally,it will not work or be as effective has normally will be.

This is bad reasoning; Iihiko has an immunity to skills but not styles, but skills can work on styles directly. We see this in their fights; Naze's Ice Fire worked, and Kumagawa's Book Maker worked. Skills and styles can compete with each other just fine.

btw, I've counted your vote in the OP

 

[Alexander]

the things is medaka is manage to beat zenkichi(even though he has the devil style)so maybe medaka adapt to that and become stronger

This doesn't prove that the nullification stopped; Devil Style just lets Zenkichi fight people without supernatural luck interfering. They can still just be stronger and/or have better abilities.

Also, while Zenkichi "lost", he was just knocked down and made to bleed a little bit, he was still alive and conscious; a blow like that wouldn't save you from an opponent with hax trying to kill you.

in the end she equal to him,even before she needed end god mode in the maximum power to beat Lihiko.

That isn't the real Iihiko; just an echo of him, we can't say that's as strong as the real one.

As I said, if you can copy a BFR, you can reverse the BFR exerted on you (it's like with garou cosmic fear mode that I managed to get out of the other dimension by copying blast's ability to travel between dimensions)

Yeah fair.

by the way, the reason why medaka and kumagawa were de-aged is because of a style, and a style uses sounds (words) to generate vibrations, this sometimes causes an alteration in reality with some styles.
that is why the age one worked, because it is a style and a style is almost the only thing that can really be effective against Lihiko, and All Fiction is not effective against Lihiko.
so normally,it will not work or be as effective has normally will be.

This is bad reasoning; Iihiko has an immunity to skills but not styles, but skills can work on styles directly. We see this in their fights; Naze's Ice Fire worked, and Kumagawa's Book Maker worked. Skills and styles can compete with each other just fine.

btw, I've counted your vote in the OP

i am not gonna say more of this for a moment,i was only gonna give medaka another vote.
so ok

 

[Agnaa]

Bump.

 

[Alexander]

Bump.

no one is gonna come any more

 

[Agnaa]

I believe they will, and so I bump.

 

[Alexander]

I believe they will, and so I bump.

one day