Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 2

[Ovy7]

Ok, so this is part 2 of this thread based on this original thread. Anyway:

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Even higher than the Witch Domain​

We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain. Furthermore, it seems that her Study and City of Books seem to also be outside the Witch Domain, very likely being situated in this higher domain.

Additionally, it is noted that the difference between the domains is trivial to her, and Tohya Hachijo and Featherine Augustus Aurora are just roles of an indescribable actor entity. Featherine's main power also allows her to see the entirety of Creation as a story and rewrite it at will. And, finally, Piece also mentions that Featherine is the "Great Pillar that supports the World".

Based on this, I think this world that Featherine reached, including her Study and the City of Books, along with Featherine's True Form should all qualify for High 1-A.

Auau and Creators ​

All mentions of Featherine being a Creator should be purged from her profile. In Umineko Saku - Last Note, the final Umineko entry we got (excluding the Higurashi Mei colabs), we are directly told that she is not a Creator, just the closest one to it. Featherine chose to not become a Creator because the final restriction is that of identity, so she would have lost herself and disappeared.

Also, I think the Creator key for Maria should also be removed, as it’s all just a “maybe she’ll reach that level someday” thing.

Conclusion​

Featherine's Study/City of Books - All the characters who have keys for this should have said key become High 1-A.

Featherine’s True Form - Featherine’s True Form key would become High 1-A, based on the reasoning for her profile.

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Just came here to say that Ultima disagreed with High 1-A in the latest thread by saying that the entire Umineko is one hierarchy, the creator 's domain at the top of that hierarchy. It means they can't be High 1-A no matter how transcendent they are. As long as they're still in the same hierarchy/framework , it will not be High 1-A. And two other staff agreed with him. I'm done and cya.

Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 1

This thread is a repost of this original thread, due to the many replies in that thread which made it hard for staff to keep up with the discussion. I also split the original thread in 2, with this thread focusing on the 1-A stuff, while the next will focus on a possible High 1-A/0 stuff, and...

vsbattles.com

 

[Robo432343]

Just came here to say that Ultima disagreed with High 1-A in the latest thread by saying that the entire Umineko is one hierarchy, the Witch's domain at the top of that hierarchy. It means they can't be High 1-A no matter how transcendent they are. As long as they're still in the same hierarchy/framework , it will not be High 1-A. And two other staff agreed with him. I'm done and cya.

Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 1

This thread is a repost of this original thread, due to the many replies in that thread which made it hard for staff to keep up with the discussion. I also split the original thread in 2, with this thread focusing on the 1-A stuff, while the next will focus on a possible High 1-A/0 stuff, and...

vsbattles.com

its not the same argument
there is new evidence

 

[Wankbreaker]

Could @ExcelsisBerny be allowed to speak here? She’s pretty knowledgeable on the franchise.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Just came here to say that Ultima disagreed with High 1-A in the latest thread by saying that the entire Umineko is one hierarchy, the creator 's domain at the top of that hierarchy.

It’s an oversimplification that honestly surprises me to still see used on this wiki, considering the absurd amount of evidence that there isn’t just one single hierarchy in the verse.

Anyways, the argumentation is different this time. You won’t be able to dismiss the thread just by appealing to those words unless you actually elaborate more on the point.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems reasonable, but we need further input, and Ultima is on a study break for the next 3 months.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint

Your input would be appreciated here.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Also, I think the Creator key for Maria should also be removed, as it’s all just a “maybe she’ll reach that level someday” thing.

I disagree with this. It’s not a “maybe”— it’s a predestined role due to her status as the daughter of the Holy Spirit from a meta perspective.

There’s no reason to remove that key.

Everything else looks fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Could @ExcelsisBerny be allowed to speak here? She’s pretty knowledgeable on the franchise.

I think so, yes.

 

[Ovy7]

I disagree with this. It’s not a “maybe”— it’s a predestined role due to her status as the daughter of the Holy Spirit from a meta perspective.

There’s no reason to remove that key.

That's not a hill I want to die on, so sure, we can keep it I guess.

 

[FinePoint]

Assuming there's no missing context, the argument for High 1-A seems fine (being two layers of R>F).

I don't know enough about the verse to really comment on the second thing.

 

[Livinaa]

I don't know if anyone can just reply here, so if staff wants to, they can just delete my reply.

Anyways, i disagree with High 1-A for Featherine (unless it's Creator Featherine with no restrictions left) and by extension, City of Books and everything on that level (Everything that isn't on the same level as the Creator).

From the original thread: The Witch Domain is akin to an endless ladder, with its layers or “steps” being called Endeavors. The higher on the ladder they go the fewer restrictions they have proportionally, until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.

The above means that as long as you still have restrictions, you're still a part of the Witch Domain, still in the framework of 1-A.

Since Featherine still has one restriction left, she's not a Creator, and therefore not High 1-A, though she would scale to the highest 1-A+ possible.

 

[FinePoint]

Snip.

To me this is essentially the core piece of evidence I consider important: "Just as witches look down at and mock humans from a higher world, calling them pieces on a game board... So she looks down at and mocks the territory of witches from an even higher world."

You're saying this is more metaphorical than stated, and that Featherine is simply many steps above the Witch World, but doesn't truly trivialize it into fiction?

 

[Ovy7]

Featherine being beyond the Witch Domain is clearly stated in those scans, and this is also one of the most important things about her and why she has the standing she does in the story. The entire Witch Domain is fiction to her, the same as how the Human Domain is to the Witches, and she has author authority over all of Creation including the Witch Domain.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Anyways, i disagree with High 1-A for Featherine (unless it's Creator Featherine with no restrictions left) and by extension, City of Books and everything on that level (Everything that isn't on the same level as the Creator).

This argument is extremely weak for multiple reasons, and like I mentioned earlier, it’s an overly simplified way of understanding the cosmology. But I guess it has to be tackled now to avoid the thread getting closed in four months like the last one.

For starters, that stance is based on a clear case of cherry-picking and a hasty generalization — because it’s drawing the conclusion that everything operates under the same conceptual framework based on literally one decontextualized line of dialogue, while ignoring the broader context and all the information we have about the evolutionary path.

Lambdadelta, in her memoirs, explains quite clearly that the ultimate goal of 07th Expansion’s cosmological journey is to reach a state of pure nothingness, free from all metaphysical restrictions — in other words, to achieve absolute free will, to no longer be limited by anything: to become, essentially, one with God (apotheosis)

You say “as you still have restrictions, you're still a part of the Witch Domain,” but it’s obvious that everything short of Creatorhood is subject to “restrictions” — precisely because Creatorhood represents absolute omnipotence within this fictional universe. To pretend that this fact alone proves that everything along the journey belongs to a single framework is, quite frankly, absurd. By that logic, we’d have to downgrade literally any fictional verse that includes an omnipotent absolute being/state in its cosmology, because everything below that being would inherently have restrictions, and therefore, by this same reasoning, the entire cosmology would be one single framework aimed at evolving into God.

Sounds incredibly stupid, doesn’t it?

The important point here is that literally ANY cosmology can be represented as a hierarchical succession of planes.

Let’s use DC Comics as an example to explain this point, though it could really be any tier 0 verse.

In DC, the Orrery of Worlds, the Bleedspace, Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, among others, appear on Morrison’s Multiversity map as a hierarchical chain leading to the Overvoid, which is the void lacking all narratives.
Does that mean all these planes share a single ontological framework?

Obviously not; it’s a narrative simplification meant to convey a global view of the cosmology.

This is exactly the same case. Lambdadelta states that all beings on the evolutionary path can be generalized as occupying a specific position between the two poles of being carried by fate and create fate, but that’s nothing more than a simplification meant to explain how humans are beings with infinite limitations inherent to their existence, and that the Creator is an entity that is beneath nothing, while witches are those who journey toward that nothingness.

It’s currently accepted on the wiki that the world of witches trivializes the human world via an R>F relation, qualifying as 1-A. Meanwhile, Featherine’s world is directly and blatantly said to trivialize the world of witches in the same way that the witches’ world trivializes the human world — which is literally a 1:1 description of High 1-A:

“Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system.”

Based on the very logic already accepted for the verse, how is it possible that Featherine’s world shares a conceptual framework with the witches’ world, if it transcends it in the exact same way a 1-A realm transcends all lower tiers? Isn’t that a direct contradiction of that idea?

That entire argument falls apart on its very basis.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Excel seems to make sense here.

 

[RigelBR7]

I agree!

 

[Elizhaa]

The proposals look fine.

 

[Antvasima]

So will we get a profile for The Creator of Umineko as well? The concept does seem similar to that of real world Buddhist Nirvana.

 

[Robo432343]

So will we get a profile for The Creator of Umineko as well? The concept does seem similar to that of real world Buddhist Nirvana.

wasn't it accepted that the creator does not actually exist?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So will we get a profile for The Creator of Umineko as well?

I think the best approach would be to simply leave that topic for the next cosmology revision thread, since it’s potentially the most complex subject to address and needs a detailed explanation behind it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, wouldn't any concept based on Nirvana incorporate but transcend the concepts of existence and nonexistence?

 

[Antvasima]

I think the best approach would be to simply leave that topic for the next cosmology revision thread, since it’s potentially the most complex subject to address and needs a detailed explanation behind it.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Ovy7]

Forgot to mention this in the OP, but I guess the Sea of Oblivion will also become High 1-A for being the bottom of the Sea of Fragments and where Voyagers go if they "miss their footing".

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine, if it scales to Featherine.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

How many staff agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, btw?

So far we’ve got 3 (Antvasima, Elizhaa, and FinePoint).

 

[Wankbreaker]

How many staff agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, btw?

So far we’ve got 3 (Antvasima, Elizhaa, and FinePoint).

3 is needed, so it could actually just be applied.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Yep. 3 staff votes already.

 

[FinePoint]

How many staff agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, btw?

So far we’ve got 3 (Antvasima, Elizhaa, and FinePoint).

Only three are technically required, but:

The review and approval of content revisions that affect Tier 1 and/or Tier 0 ratings or that are highly controversial should preferably be conducted by a larger number of staff members in order to ensure that all relevant parties are aware of and agree with the proposed changes.

So as many as we can reasonably get is preferred.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So as many as we can reasonably get is preferred.

It’s fine by me, as long as the thread doesn’t fall into the depths of Oblivion like the last one—

 

[FinePoint]

It’s fine by me, as long as the thread doesn’t fall into the depths of Oblivion like the last one—

Well if that happens we can apply it with just three.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with Featherine's true self being High 1-A, but am very reluctant to allow it for the City of Books and everybody who were brought there, as I thought that it was nowhere near as high as her true self, and should not scale to her.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Just out of curiosity: in this case, can the part about Featherine specifically be applied to her profile? In the character's case, it's something that has been discussed for a whole year since the first CRT. The vast majority of staff who read the justifications agreed with the proposed tiering for her (H1-A).

 

[Ovy7]

Honestly, I'm fine with the City of Books remaining as 1-A, if that's what the staff considers. High 1-A Featherine was the main thing I wanted to do with this CRT anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Honestly, I'm fine with the City of Books remaining as 1-A, if that's what the staff considers. High 1-A Featherine was the main thing I wanted to do with this CRT anyway.

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Antvasima]

Just out of curiosity: in this case, can the part about Featherine specifically be applied to her profile? In the character's case, it's something that has been discussed for a whole year since the first CRT. The vast majority of staff who read the justifications agreed with the proposed tiering for her (H1-A).

That seems fine to me at least.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well, I am fine with Featherine's true self being High 1-A, but am very reluctant to allow it for the City of Books and everybody who were brought there, as I thought that it was nowhere near as high as her true self, and should not scale to her.

I can elaborate on this in more detail, since I understand the doubts around it.

The statement that Featherine perceives the witches’ realm as a game board doesn’t refer to her true form — it directly alludes to her manifestation in her study (the one that we actually see writing the story in the EP8 of the manga), which shares the same "framework" as the City of Books.

Together, these and other higher planes make up what’s known as the “world of the great witches,” which lies beyond all the typical witch Territories like the ones seen in Episode 7.

When Ange accesses the City of Books through an invitation (i.e., a summoning), she discovers (through Erika) that the great witches of the Senate consider everything that’s happened up until that point (Beatrice’s catbox, Bernkastel, and basically all that “lower domain”) so insignificant that it doesn’t even amount to a single book within the City of Books.

That statement isn’t a standalone — Umineko Saku reinforces this through the Ange acting as a piece on Featherine’s board, who confirms that the entire witches’ world is perceived by Featherine (Great Witch of the Senate) as text written on a mere sheet of paper (using the background of the CoB).

And we know it’s referring to her manifestation because the same statement refers to the great witches of the CoB, and Ryukishi07 himself has said that Featherine’s manifestation exists in a collaborative world shared with other witches of that level [ 3rd scan of the Imgur]. That can’t be Featherine’s true form — because Featherine True Form is verbatim described as the highest goddess of existence [Excelsis Dea], dwelling in a plane where she’s on the verge of losing her identity and dissolving, making her a one-of-a-kind case and the reason she’s a legendary witch.

Alright then…

The underlying reason of the tier is that Territories operate on the basis of a dialectical ground from which worlds are created. For example, Beatrice’s catbox admits as a valid current world any theory expressible through language regarding the events on Rokkenjima.

This catbox is entirely disconnected from the mortal plane by a 1-A gap, as it not only contains every possible combination of human language usable to approach the mystery, but also because the world of the gods (the witches) operates using a transcendental language that surpasses the entire human framework. In other words, it’s impossible to express in human language the meaning of a phrase written in the language of the gods, no matter how many possible combinations are attempted.

The plane where both Featherine’s study and the City of Books (CoB) exist is so absurdly superior that even to formulate the possibilities of a board/fragment/book, it requires a language only great witches can comprehend. This language is described as hyperdense from the perspective of a being like Meta Ange.

That’s precisely why the City of Books functions as the Akashic record of the witches’ world, capable of storing all possible worlds in the form of books. It represents the metafictional version of the Library of Time, which acts as the Akashic record of the human world.

So in summary: the City of Books completely transcends the conventional framework of the witches’ world, and it’s from that plane that the High 1-A level begins.

Regarding your question about why so many characters manage to manifest at that level — the reason is that all of them are emanations of the heart / golden essence of Ange Beatrice, who is one of the highest-level entities in the entire verse, having reached the level of a true Golden Witch. Therefore, they necessarily scale to High 1-A as well.

As for their true forms, Featherine and the Creator María occupy higher layers of High 1-A, respectively. For simplicity, let’s say the first and second layer within High 1-A — since I plan to make an extremely detailed post about this in the future, and I think defining it right now is unnecessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I am not sure if your reasoning is sufficient to upscale the City of Books to High 1-A in comparison with our previously set tiers. We need input from more knowledgeable members here.

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Everything12 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @GrathOfLux @Udlmaster @FinePoint

What do you think?

 

[FinePoint]

Well I'm conceptually fine with the City of Books being High 1-A assuming that explanation isn't missing context.

However, could someone please elaborate on what it means for a character to "manifest at that level" in this context?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

However, could someone please elaborate on what it means for a character to "manifest at that level" in this context?

Like I said, in this context, the reason several characters can manifest in the CoB is because they’re emanations of Ange’s essence, who was able to access the CoB in the first place because Featherine (a High 1-A being) allowed it, elevating her existential level up to that point.

And in Umineko, the higher you ascend, the more powerful you are, so there’s really no argument against that. It’s as clear as water.