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When The Discussion Cries - New Forum
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Does not count due to being a puppet of bern and also being the embodiment of Rika's despair.
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He said Umineko tho
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This ovy^
Umineko though personally the only two people qualify for “Pure-Evil”
Kyrie and Featherine
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I doubt Featherine'd count as pure evil, tbh.
She acts more as a true neutral character, since her only intention is to watch the story as the Witch of Theatergoing to deduce the secret of Rokkenjima by her own.
She also has shown some good actions that'd go against a pure evil nature, such as not publishing Eva's diary and consequently helping people to consider debating of the Rokkenjima accident as an insult to the victim and stop all the theories against Ange's family members.
Meanwhile:
She acts more as a true neutral character, since her only intention is to watch the story as the Witch of Theatergoing to deduce the secret of Rokkenjima by her own.
She also has shown some good actions that'd go against a pure evil nature, such as not publishing Eva's diary and consequently helping people to consider debating of the Rokkenjima accident as an insult to the victim and stop all the theories against Ange's family members.
Meanwhile:
Kyrie does love Rudolf.
Karabach-barabach
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Man, classifying Kyrie as pure evil does feel funky
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The only possible pure evil characters that I could think about of Umineko would be Ange's classmates. Though only due to their short appearence in the VN (I honestly doubt they are Pure Evil)
All other characters do indeed have their own motivations to do what they are doing, regardless if they are more or less valid.
All other characters do indeed have their own motivations to do what they are doing, regardless if they are more or less valid.
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Could be villainous pragmatism as Featherine enjoys atrocities that Bernkastek or Erica Furudo comitt and also Lambadelta and as a result she is responsible for any atrocity they commit and also Beato as Lambadelta turned Beato in to a witch in the first place and Featherine genuinely had no sense of regret in these ventures whatsoever.
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Seems to be pragmatic as she corrupted him in the first place and she is greedy so money also might be a factor. She committed a mass act of terror that blew up an island and did it for money and murdered little kids like Maria and gloated about it openly.
Karabach-barabach
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So, basically the same thing we do to ants, for example? I mean, the analogy here is that those who stand at the top of the food chain can do whatever the hell they want, so this should've been expected. Especially considering that witches most certainly don't view humans as anything special or something
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Only sadistic psychopaths enjoy inflicting pain on to sentient creatures lamo and Featherine goes out of her way to provoke Bern in to doing horrible acts for mere amusement. Also cosmic entities can be Pure Evil an example is Morgoth from LOTR.
Karabach-barabach
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Y'know, I remember one moment in a Minecraft video (it was an LP with a story made by a whole team sponsored by a guy named Lololoshka) where an old man looked at a scientist from another world (that was technologically underdeveloped compared to the world an old man was from) and called him a "cute animal", so to say that to witches we humans will be "sentient" isn't really a good justification, but I digress
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Featherine enjoys mysteries, not "atrocities". She enjoys intelectual stories that can take away her boredom and revive her.
Pretty sure Featherine has not done any act out of pure evilness. Her only interventions with the plot were when she took Ange as a miko to read the story for her, when she took the book of Truth to learn the truth of Featherine's gameboard (though she posteriously didn't show it), and the only times she "attacked" was because she was attacked first.
A true evil person would not do any of that things. Let alone put a rose to let the story rest in the Sea of Oblivion when everything was done, not intervene even when her miko and guardians got defeated to let the story progress, help Battler recover in the Human World and then let him meet Ange, etc.
Saying Lambda is true evil but Bern isn't is just wrong. Both were playing roles on the story.
Saying Lambda has no morals when in the episode 8 she literally helped the protagonist because they'd give her the "best happy ending she could imagine", risking her life due to attacking the strongest witch of the Senate is just wrong.
Not to mention that the original cause of all the suffering of Ange was Bernkastel, who promised her the only way for her to find a member of her family was not to love Eva, which caused her meta-world death in episode 4, and almost the destruction of the gameboard where all her family was living in episode 8. Not to mention the suffering Eva had due to not being loved that ended up making her crazy
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Lambdadelta and Bernkastel were, indirectly, helpers of Beatrice to let Battler learn the truth of the Rokkenjima incident.
Lambdadelta was even good enough to help Battler understand the mistery in episode 5, "creating a gameboard with lots of clues like Beatrice's".
They were just enjoying Beatrice's game. Lambdadelta even adviced Battler not to cause a Logic Error because said suffering is almost as bad as the Sea of Oblivion.
Meanwhile, Bernkastel threw by her own will Furudo Erika to the Sea of Oblivion because she couldn't defeat Battler.
This is just bias to Bernkastel lol.
Bernkastel is the one who acts on her own to revive her master, even if their relationship seems bad.
Oh, and btw, pretty sure Featherine did not ask Bernkastel to play the truth of the gameboard in Episode 7. She just asked for a story to let her reach the truth, it was Bernkastel who did let that part play and who took the gameboard Featherine offered to her to "have her revenge with Beatrice due to her humiliation"
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I never said lamba was PE I said that Featherine similar to Don Eladio from Breaking Bad is responsible for every terrible act all the villains do and Bern does not qualify due to lacking agency and free will as a result of her being the embodiment of Rikas inner evil aka she is evil by nature and cannot change herself to do good acts.
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But she isn't.
Unless you wanna use the argument that all narrative is written by her. In which case, all good things also are made by her, so she ain't pure evil
Also, being the personification of inner evil of someone does not discredit you being pure evil. If anything, it'd support it
Unless you wanna use the argument that all narrative is written by her. In which case, all good things also are made by her, so she ain't pure evil
Also, being the personification of inner evil of someone does not discredit you being pure evil. If anything, it'd support it
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Did you miss the part where I said Bern lacks true moral agency due to only being made of evil and not having the choice for good deeds due to her nature being hardwired for evil? Featherine turned Rika in to Bern to begin with so that point is moot.
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If Bernkastel couldn't do anything but bad actions actions, she wouldn't expect to get a role different of that of the bad guy in a different story.
Not to mention that her attaching Lambda's arms and legs to her body shows she can, indeed, have some benevolence.
Not to mention that her attaching Lambda's arms and legs to her body shows she can, indeed, have some benevolence.
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She only keeps Lamba around as a sadistic chew toy to mess around with due to her inherent makeup she can never love or anything and is a sentient organic AI pretty much in this case.
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I have but you seem adamant on treating Bern as a normal person with moral agency when she is not and your insisting on defending Peychopaths like Featherine.
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Have you actually read what I sent you? Literally 3 different examples of Bernkastel having emotions I remembered right after reading your comment. Now tell me how this:
Makes sense if you actually have.
I'm not defending Featherine. I'm saying you can't hold your bias to Bernkastel saying she's not a bad witch and "that she only does bad things because she cannot do anything else", even saying she is a machine without emotions (when she's not) while critisizing other witches.
Either all of them are true evil or none is, stop nitpicking.
And no, none of them is true evil. At least, they do not fit what you've described as true evil
Karabach-barabach
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At some point in time I had been simping on Bern, and even then will I not say she's "not a bad witch"
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I'm not knowledgeable enough in higurashi since I watched the original anime long, long ago and I'm leaving the VN aside for now. But, how would that prove Sotsu not being Canon? That scene most likely refers to when Hanyuu used her power to prevent a bullet to kill the protagonists
And given that Ryukishi07 said that Gou and Sotsu are "culminations of Higurashi" to him, I doubt he'd consider them noncanon.
And given that Ryukishi07 said that Gou and Sotsu are "culminations of Higurashi" to him, I doubt he'd consider them noncanon.
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The meaning of redirecting (or diverted in other translation) is quite straightforward to be referred to what she did in that scene of anime version. That scene also got a remake in Gou and Satokowashi is a sequel from that scene.
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Yeah, but I don't get how that'd prove that Sotsu is Non-Canon
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A sequel from non-canon = non-canon
Hanyuu didn't redirect a bullet in VN
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Ryukishi's on supervision of the plot of every adaptation of his work, from manga to anime, and often make changes that did not appear in the original work.
The most obvious example of this is the 8th episode of Umineko, which, even if entirely different to its VN counterpart, still is Canon and "an answer written directly by him".
The canonicity of its work is not limited to the visual novels, but to most the media of his works
The most obvious example of this is the 8th episode of Umineko, which, even if entirely different to its VN counterpart, still is Canon and "an answer written directly by him".
The canonicity of its work is not limited to the visual novels, but to most the media of his works
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Ok, I misunderstood the definition of Canon. Both are canon because they were supervised by R07 but Sotsu is no different from "What if story" because it didn't happen in the main storyline (VN) like many fan service chapters
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I wouldn't call it a what if story.
Just a continuation of the events of the anime, which'd be canon due to Ryukishi07 being in constant supervision, not only of the original anime, but also of Gou and Sotsu, and directly admiting that all of the media, be it anime, manga or vn serve to enter and understand the world of Higurashi/Umineko, and has added references that both the ones who watched the original anime and those who read the VN would understand and enjoy
If anime and manga were not canon, "what if stories with no relevance to the plot", he wouldn't state that.
If I had to locate the several, different events on the cosmology, I'd say they are a different kakera from the Sea of Fragments of Eua's cat box, as she stated to have met a different itineration of Satoko already, which also called her Eua.
All in all, they are different formats telling the same story. Canon, of course, for the reasons above. Such as how in other VN originated series like Nasuverse the canon is not limited to the original VNs, but also includes the anime, manga or light novel version of said works. Even if the events in some of them are different
Just a continuation of the events of the anime, which'd be canon due to Ryukishi07 being in constant supervision, not only of the original anime, but also of Gou and Sotsu, and directly admiting that all of the media, be it anime, manga or vn serve to enter and understand the world of Higurashi/Umineko, and has added references that both the ones who watched the original anime and those who read the VN would understand and enjoy
If anime and manga were not canon, "what if stories with no relevance to the plot", he wouldn't state that.
If I had to locate the several, different events on the cosmology, I'd say they are a different kakera from the Sea of Fragments of Eua's cat box, as she stated to have met a different itineration of Satoko already, which also called her Eua.
All in all, they are different formats telling the same story. Canon, of course, for the reasons above. Such as how in other VN originated series like Nasuverse the canon is not limited to the original VNs, but also includes the anime, manga or light novel version of said works. Even if the events in some of them are different
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I just used the word "what if" to make it has lower priority than the main storyline because it can't fit to the main storyline. (I don't know how to call this type of work, spin-off??)
Some chapters in WTC are like that such as Another End, anime storyline is just one of them.
Some character in Nasuverse has a separate key/profile for that so WTC should be the same (??)
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Pretty sure the different Keys for Nasuverse characters are there for the same reason of normal Keys in profiles like Goku's (i.e., the characters suffered some kind of "progression" from one key to another), or because they are different itinerations of the characters (such as how the characters from Fate/Grand Order are treated as different versions than their canon counterparts).
Unlike Fate, Ryukishi treats their meta-world version as somewhat "absolute" between all works. You wouldn't say anime or manga Meta-Battler is different to VN Meta-Battler, since they are literally the same character, just in a different media (as acknowledged by stories in which the characters from Umineko and Higurashi recognize the anime, or in the story of Game Master BATTLER! with Eva-Beatrice asking Battler to be "the most OP character of a fighting game", despite being a VN/manga, not a fighting game in which the scene was made)
Most of the abilities of Meta-Beings are capabilities they have by being a Meta-Being, such as their capability of manipulating kakeras, their existence of nothingness, their usage of truths (in case they have them), etc. Not something inherent by some story that only happened to that itineration of them from that specific media.
If characters have suffered something specific that another version of them hasn't and as thus they have obtained specific abilities that the original key should not have because they have not earned it, then yeah, they should warrant a different key. Though pretty sure there a little examples where that'd apply, the only ones I could think of are Hanyuu's distinction between the Human World counterpart and Kotohogushi and Rika and Satoko's witch form earning the abilities of said form as well as the usage of Onigari-nō-Ryūō. Since those characters are the only ones who suffered changes significant enough to warrant another key and gained abilities that are not inherent of their state of being (I'm not counting Hanyuu using Onigari-no-Ryuo, since her using it is not something exclusive of the anime/manga version of Hanyuu. Said sword already existed and was bestowed by her and she just chose to summon it in the anime because she used it to fight).
Beside the obvious, like the 07th Theater version of all the characters representing a Meta-Being manifestation of all of those, including characters who originally do not have one like Higanbana and granting them the usage of Red Truth, which should be listed as a new key for their Meta-Being form (there is no reason fo characters from Higurashi or Umineko, as that'd be their normal Meta-Being manifestation).
All in all, I don't think Meta-Beings would need to have different Keys representing which work they are from, as they represent an unification, actor-like entity that represents the roles of the different works (works in the Meta sense of the word, i.e., irl manga, anime, vn…)
But for pieces? Yeah.
Unlike Fate, Ryukishi treats their meta-world version as somewhat "absolute" between all works. You wouldn't say anime or manga Meta-Battler is different to VN Meta-Battler, since they are literally the same character, just in a different media (as acknowledged by stories in which the characters from Umineko and Higurashi recognize the anime, or in the story of Game Master BATTLER! with Eva-Beatrice asking Battler to be "the most OP character of a fighting game", despite being a VN/manga, not a fighting game in which the scene was made)
Most of the abilities of Meta-Beings are capabilities they have by being a Meta-Being, such as their capability of manipulating kakeras, their existence of nothingness, their usage of truths (in case they have them), etc. Not something inherent by some story that only happened to that itineration of them from that specific media.
If characters have suffered something specific that another version of them hasn't and as thus they have obtained specific abilities that the original key should not have because they have not earned it, then yeah, they should warrant a different key. Though pretty sure there a little examples where that'd apply, the only ones I could think of are Hanyuu's distinction between the Human World counterpart and Kotohogushi and Rika and Satoko's witch form earning the abilities of said form as well as the usage of Onigari-nō-Ryūō. Since those characters are the only ones who suffered changes significant enough to warrant another key and gained abilities that are not inherent of their state of being (I'm not counting Hanyuu using Onigari-no-Ryuo, since her using it is not something exclusive of the anime/manga version of Hanyuu. Said sword already existed and was bestowed by her and she just chose to summon it in the anime because she used it to fight).
Beside the obvious, like the 07th Theater version of all the characters representing a Meta-Being manifestation of all of those, including characters who originally do not have one like Higanbana and granting them the usage of Red Truth, which should be listed as a new key for their Meta-Being form (there is no reason fo characters from Higurashi or Umineko, as that'd be their normal Meta-Being manifestation).
All in all, I don't think Meta-Beings would need to have different Keys representing which work they are from, as they represent an unification, actor-like entity that represents the roles of the different works (works in the Meta sense of the word, i.e., irl manga, anime, vn…)
But for pieces? Yeah.
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I wonder, does trapping someone inside a world a Reality-Fiction below quantity count as "Minus 1-A" BFR by default?
I remember one verse, idrk if it was FF or something in the lines, had said ability and iirc it was considered OP or something.
I mention that because some characters from Umineko can BFR you to a qualitatively inferior world
I remember one verse, idrk if it was FF or something in the lines, had said ability and iirc it was considered OP or something.
I mention that because some characters from Umineko can BFR you to a qualitatively inferior world
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I wonder if the "higher world" many pieces scale to (like Dlanor or Erika) should be 1-A instead of low 1-C
Points in favor:
Possible points against it:
Though all those counterpoints could be solved if the Meta-World has a Reality-Fiction transcendence over that higher plane. Specially since catboxes have shown to have more than 1 Reality-Fiction layers. The most obvious being Bernkastel's
Points in favor:
- It is a "higher level" world from which pieces cannot interact
- It exists outside of the game board. Proof of that is that Truths (which cannot be used inside the game board) can be used here
- When talking about Erika meeting Beatrice, Erika mentioned that the existence of parallel worlds and the detective arguing on a meta-space is pretty common in detective novels, comparing that to Beatrice appearing in front of her on said space.
Possible points against it:
- The Beatrice that appears here is Piece Beatrice, not Meta-Beatrice, controlled by the Game Master, Lambdadelta.
- Battler appearing here also isn't his Meta self, but his… piece? A manifestation of him? It's not really his piece since Beatrice distinguished piece Battler (the one inside the Game Board that cannot interact with him) to the Battler that appeared there (which seems to have knowledge over the previous games, can interact with the higher world beings as well as use truths). But it isn't his meta-self either, as it is directly stated that said version of him was being controlled by Lambda.
Though all those counterpoints could be solved if the Meta-World has a Reality-Fiction transcendence over that higher plane. Specially since catboxes have shown to have more than 1 Reality-Fiction layers. The most obvious being Bernkastel's
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Is anyone here working on revising the characters' abilities?
Edit: Lmao, just checked it and since this thread is dead af it seems weird me being the only one constantly talking and getting no response
Edit: Lmao, just checked it and since this thread is dead af it seems weird me being the only one constantly talking and getting no response
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I would like to help but i dont know how to edit profiles and you probably already have every scan i have lol
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I'm not working on it rn.
I'm planning on first creating a blog to solidify the evidence for Outer and avove stuff, then maybe I'm gonna create a canonicity page and then for powers and abilities.
Though it depends how much free time and will to do so I have
I'm planning on first creating a blog to solidify the evidence for Outer and avove stuff, then maybe I'm gonna create a canonicity page and then for powers and abilities.
Though it depends how much free time and will to do so I have
