I don't think taking my opinion into account would be good right now. I'm not in a state where I can make arguments or take time to consider something properly.
You need to let go of the misconception that Truths are restricted to 'levels'. That's never once been stated nor is there any actual proof to state it's limited to the layer it's spoken on. That's at best just an assumption. If Truths are a concept that is part of the Ladder itself, layers in of itself is irrelevant. A Truth given on one layer doesn't make it limited to the Layer itself unless specified.
Okay. We should wait until you can find the time, energy, and IRL stability to handle this topic then.
It canonically got denied a bunch of time though. Last thing I'm gonna say on the subject.
Given the issue, it would take unreasonnable amount of waiting, which I highly not recommand.
Not in any of the examples you gave it didn't. Knox are rules that's part of the entire ladder that the Red follows, Red being denied by Knox doesn't equate to anything. And if you mean looping around the Red, that's one of its weaknesses in that being overly specific will corner you with your own Red in a Witches game.
How the hell is it the bottom? The bottom of the ladder is the human domain. Do we really need a sharp reminder that this is not a literal ladder but an analogy for a hierarchy?
You haven't posted any scans of context for this though. Where is it stated that they apply throughout the ladder?
Could have focused more on the arguments instead of wasting an entire paragraph typing this, you know.
You have literally provided 0 "proof" for anything you say. They are literally just weapons shaped from facts. Their potency has no relation to the immutable nature of the facts themselves.
She is likely extrapolating, given she is in the middle of the ladder. Given that the hierarchy works with higher beings controlling the fate of the lower beings, and the lower pole of the hierarchy contains humans which have 0 control over anyone, it's natural to extrapolate that there is an extreme top which has control over everything. That is a completely understandable extrapolation that may or may not be accurate. Moreover even if there were a logic hole I wouldn't really need to explain anything since that would have been a flaw on the author's part.
Because they know the nature of the hierarchy from the fact that they are climbing it? Seems like you are grasping too hard for loopholes that can facilitate your headcanon.
I give 0 ***** whether her words are accurate or not. Heck I disagree with the very base notion that you are arguing this upon(Oblivion being above Creators). The only reason I addressed that was because the idea that they can become creator whenever they want or will have any objective information on how creators work is utterly bullshit
You do know that Red Truth can't be used to lie? Truths are literally just actual facts being used as fuel for conceptual denial weapons. It has nothing to do with reality warping. Plus it fundamentally can't deny witches from a particular layer because witches exist on all layers
It's literally described as being the absolute bottom of the Ladder. Even if it's not 'literal' in what sense you think, it's still at the bottom and that's a point that cannot be debated regardless of how you perceive the hierarchy.
Reasoning. A lot of things aren't directly stated in Umineko, just like the statement that Red only applies on layers it's used on. Feel free to find that statement and prove me wrong.
Cope.
I posted proof, you just aren't accepting it as proof. Not my problem. These facts remain facts throughout the cosmology.
You need to explain it because you're doubting it and going against it. You can't claim it's a flaw if you have no proper explanation for why it is one. Anyways, I don't remember the point of why we're debating this but it's clear this is a stalemate.
Ironic.
Well again you clearly have no clue what I was arguing because I never said that, so like...from the get go, I don't need to acknowledge any of this. Have a good one.
Pretty sure it isn’t. It’s the place where witches fall to if they don’t properly define their restrictions if I’m not mistaken
You aren't, but you also are wrong. They fall there because it is the depths of the ladder. It's like slipping on half way up and then falling back down to the ground.
Well, it’s more of a metaphysical ladder of restrictions, so technically what I said still seems to work
See it this way : if they hit that ground, they aren't in the Human Domain. They're more like...in the ground, or the earth metaphorically. As in they hit the ground and die. Hence = non-existence / non-life.
Scans?
Bruh
You aren't even reading what I am typing. Red Truths when used as conceptual denial weapons aren't the facts themselves, but the facts being used as a medium to shape weapons of conceptual denial. An abstract fact cannot take the form of a wedge or a spear. That should be clear as day.
Multiple flaws can be pointed out in this:
Oh wow so you literally ignored the extremely detailed explanation that I provided while focusing on the last sentence that was completely unrelated to the argument? Just how desperate are you?
Ok
How does that prove Red Truths warp reality? Posting a scan without elaborating doesn't mean anything.
You can't use red truth to lie. Witches being part of the Cosmology is a fundamental truth, so you can't deny it. It's quite simple and honestly I kinda lost you halfway through your first post and have no idea what you are even arguing anymore.
First of all Lambda literally never mentions Oblivion in memoirs. Also it seems there has been a misunderstanding, in Lambda's analogy going "down" actually means ascending the hierarchy.You aren't, but you also are wrong. They fall there because it is the depths of the ladder. It's like slipping on half way up and then falling back down to the ground.
Like all mentions of the sea of oblivion and the depths are the exact same thing, it's always
Catboxes are just personal sea of fragments for the possibilities of that world the Territory is based on. That's not inherently true because Battler is definitely dead on all lower layers and it's impossible for Ange or anyone else to claim he isn't. Even as ANGE-BEATRICE, a Witch, she had to rely on the Golden Truth instead to tank that Red. So 'Vague' here is not really true. There ARE Red's that affect the entire cosmology as Facts.
Sure lol if you wanna think that's how this went
Man if I have to spoon food you on this one...you know what, you can figure this out on your own, right? Think of it as a visual learning lesson.
That's probably a fault of your own reading comprehension, so let me post why Witches can't be denied and not because of whatever headcanon you just said.
That's interesting, but again regardless it's irrelevant to my point because I'm not scaling to Oblivion.
Catboxes contain possibilities based on vagueness of a limited scope of events. Battler's death just exceeds that scope so it happens in all possibilities of the catbox, and hence is true. Also again "entire cosmology" still has to be proven. It affected Ange because, you know, it was used by Bern on the same layer.
The jump from "The blades are powered by the facts" to "Their potency would scale to the literal immutable abstract facts that are used to power them" is a massive leap of logic.
Considering you completely ignored my explanation as if it didn't even exist I am leaning towards thinking that you had no counters.
Since your attitude isn't really helping I will take this as a concession
That's literally what I said though? From the perspective of Battler he is saying that you cannot use the Red truth to state that witches don't exist because you can only state facts using it, and the devil's proof makes it so that you can't declare the nonexistence of something as factual, while you can declare their existence as factual from a simple example.
Discussions are still going on
was a joke, my dude
I don't think so. Pieces can affect GM with truths but that's mostly because GMs are subject to the rules they create for the gameboard as well.
Well, I don't want us to risk making unreliable NLF additions without anybody I know to be reliable to evaluate them.
I apologise for my behaviour. I feel like Accelerate was being a bit aggressive which kinda pushed me to take an aggressive stance as a defense. I tried to tone it down near the end.
No problem.
You can lock the 4 profiles above now as well as all the other character profiles that were mentioned by Yuri previously. Leave truths though
