When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)

[QuasiYuri]

I think that it seems safest to go with what Yuri thinks is best regarding truths.

I don't think taking my opinion into account would be good right now. I'm not in a state where I can make arguments or take time to consider something properly.

I do disagree though, and regret not being able to explain it better.

 

[Accelerate420]

Hmm. It seems too much like an illogical NLF to me, if the truths of a far lower level being can affect realms that perceive said being as fiction. It would require extremely good evidence to pass.

You need to let go of the misconception that Truths are restricted to 'levels'. That's never once been stated nor is there any actual proof to state it's limited to the layer it's spoken on. That's at best just an assumption. If Truths are a concept that is part of the Ladder itself, layers in of itself is irrelevant. A Truth given on one layer doesn't make it limited to the Layer itself unless specified.

Higher-beings perceive these worlds as fiction but they still recognize the truths given. As an example ; Even if one used The Red at the highest layer, it couldn't erase the existence of all witches even if you perceived them all as fiction so it doesn't quite work that way as standard hax.

Umineko is abstract in its usage of hax despite throwing the word Conceptual a lot. Further more, again, it would completely negate the point that all future concepts would be denied immediately. What would be the point of the Great Court be if Red's could just be denied after being recognized? There's no fallacy or illogicalness here, the illogical logic is in ignoring this.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think taking my opinion into account would be good right now. I'm not in a state where I can make arguments or take time to consider something properly.

I do disagree though, and regret not being able to explain it better.

Okay. We should wait until you can find the time, energy, and IRL stability to handle this topic then.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What would be the point of the Great Court be if Red's could just be denied after being recognized?

It canonically got denied a bunch of time though. Last thing I'm gonna say on the subject.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Okay. We should wait until you can find the time, energy, and IRL stability to handle this topic then.

Given the issue, it would take unreasonnable amount of waiting, which I highly not recommand.

 

[Accelerate420]

It canonically got denied a bunch of time though. Last thing I'm gonna say on the subject.

Not in any of the examples you gave it didn't. Knox are rules that's part of the entire ladder that the Red follows, Red being denied by Knox doesn't equate to anything. And if you mean looping around the Red, that's one of its weaknesses in that being overly specific will corner you with your own Red in a Witches game.

Hell, even the Red that 'Battler is dead' was never once denied and still pierced Ange. Battler stayed dead, but his body returned.

 

[Darksmash]

I partially agree to this. It's not the top, it's at the absolute bottom, though it's still sort of external to the ladder in an abstract form though it's dwarfed by the Creators themselves. Which is why I don't scale the Truths to it specifically but the Ladder.

How the hell is it the bottom? The bottom of the ladder is the human domain. Do we really need a sharp reminder that this is not a literal ladder but an analogy for a hierarchy?

We know Reds recognized by the Court of Heaven are practically immutable laws throughout the entire ladder,

You haven't posted any scans of context for this though. Where is it stated that they apply throughout the ladder?

Also, since you skimmed it, why should I take anything you say seriously now? It's like saying I understand x video game but I skipped most of the cutscenes. I don't need to take any statement you give much thought after this admittance of failure to respect my arguments.

Could have focused more on the arguments instead of wasting an entire paragraph typing this, you know.

Further more, your analogy is false because of the proof I've already stated that Truths can affect all layers if given recognition. Just like how a Human can use a Red if recognized by a Witch.

You have literally provided 0 "proof" for anything you say. They are literally just weapons shaped from facts. Their potency has no relation to the immutable nature of the facts themselves.

Okay, then where does Lambdadelta get this information to begin with? If they aren't aware of how stuff works on that level, how do they even know what happens on it? That's a logic loop hole you'll need to thread.

She is likely extrapolating, given she is in the middle of the ladder. Given that the hierarchy works with higher beings controlling the fate of the lower beings, and the lower pole of the hierarchy contains humans which have 0 control over anyone, it's natural to extrapolate that there is an extreme top which has control over everything. That is a completely understandable extrapolation that may or may not be accurate. Moreover even if there were a logic hole I wouldn't really need to explain anything since that would have been a flaw on the author's part.

If they do not know how stuff works up there because they haven't seen it, how can Witches even acknowledge what happens in that domain to begin with? Because they're Witches and because they always have that opportunity to pick up the pen, they're aware of the dangers. It's quite literally also stated in the TIPS itself that Voyagers fear becoming a Creator BECAUSE of these reasons to begin with. Featherine is considered to be a big deal BECAUSE she's the only known Witch to have written herself back into her own story after becoming a Creator.

Because they know the nature of the hierarchy from the fact that they are climbing it? Seems like you are grasping too hard for loopholes that can facilitate your headcanon.

If you ask me, I think you're trying to devalue her words as legitimate for whatever reason I can't fathom. Lambdadelta who is a Witch of the Senate who literally governs the entire Witches Domain should most certainly have info on what that domain is like.

I give 0 ***** whether her words are accurate or not. Heck I disagree with the very base notion that you are arguing this upon(Oblivion being above Creators). The only reason I addressed that was because the idea that they can become creator whenever they want or will have any objective information on how creators work is utterly bullshit

 

[Darksmash]

Even if one used The Red at the highest layer, it couldn't erase the existence of all witches even if you perceived them all as fiction so it doesn't quite work that way as standard hax.

You do know that Red Truth can't be used to lie? Truths are literally just actual facts being used as fuel for conceptual denial weapons. It has nothing to do with reality warping. Plus it fundamentally can't deny witches from a particular layer because witches exist on all layers

 

[Accelerate420]

How the hell is it the bottom? The bottom of the ladder is the human domain. Do we really need a sharp reminder that this is not a literal ladder but an analogy for a hierarchy?

It's literally described as being the absolute bottom of the Ladder. Even if it's not 'literal' in what sense you think, it's still at the bottom and that's a point that cannot be debated regardless of how you perceive the hierarchy.

You haven't posted any scans of context for this though. Where is it stated that they apply throughout the ladder?

Reasoning. A lot of things aren't directly stated in Umineko, just like the statement that Red only applies on layers it's used on. Feel free to find that statement and prove me wrong.

Could have focused more on the arguments instead of wasting an entire paragraph typing this, you know.

Cope.

You have literally provided 0 "proof" for anything you say. They are literally just weapons shaped from facts. Their potency has no relation to the immutable nature of the facts themselves.

I posted proof, you just aren't accepting it as proof. Not my problem. These facts remain facts throughout the cosmology.
With what Ant said above, they perceive them as fiction.
So if I pick up a book and there's specific statement stated in it (Let's say it's a red statement) and I say 'Well, actually I don't think that's true.' That doesn't immute the Red stated in the book just because I don't see it that way. 'Facts' do not change depending on what layer you're observing them from. You proved it yourself with this logic.
Like, why would a fact spoken on one layer not apply to another just because it's perceived as fiction? If anything that doesn't make it any less true. It's like if I read a book again, and it had a statement of 'destroying the planet' and then the planet blew up. Just because I'm seeing it as fiction doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's factual that it happened in that fiction no matter what I say.

She is likely extrapolating, given she is in the middle of the ladder. Given that the hierarchy works with higher beings controlling the fate of the lower beings, and the lower pole of the hierarchy contains humans which have 0 control over anyone, it's natural to extrapolate that there is an extreme top which has control over everything. That is a completely understandable extrapolation that may or may not be accurate. Moreover even if there were a logic hole I wouldn't really need to explain anything since that would have been a flaw on the author's part.

You need to explain it because you're doubting it and going against it. You can't claim it's a flaw if you have no proper explanation for why it is one. Anyways, I don't remember the point of why we're debating this but it's clear this is a stalemate.

Because they know the nature of the hierarchy from the fact that they are climbing it? Seems like you are grasping too hard for loopholes that can facilitate your headcanon.

Ironic.

I give 0 ***** whether her words are accurate or not. Heck I disagree with the very base notion that you are arguing this upon(Oblivion being above Creators). The only reason I addressed that was because the idea that they can become creator whenever they want or will have any objective information on how creators work is utterly bullshit

Well again you clearly have no clue what I was arguing because I never said that, so like...from the get go, I don't need to acknowledge any of this. Have a good one.

 

[Tarang123]

It's literally described as being the absolute bottom of the Ladder. Even if it's not 'literal' in what sense you think, it's still at the bottom and that's a point that cannot be debated regardless of how you perceive the hierarchy.

Pretty sure it isn’t. It’s the place where witches fall to if they don’t properly define their restrictions if I’m not mistaken

 

[Accelerate420]

You do know that Red Truth can't be used to lie? Truths are literally just actual facts being used as fuel for conceptual denial weapons. It has nothing to do with reality warping. Plus it fundamentally can't deny witches from a particular layer because witches exist on all layers

It has nothing to do with reality warping

Have we read the same series

Also the fundamental reason is because of the Devil's Proof, not because of whatever headcanon you just said lol

 

[Accelerate420]

Pretty sure it isn’t. It’s the place where witches fall to if they don’t properly define their restrictions if I’m not mistaken

You aren't, but you also are wrong. They fall there because it is the depths of the ladder. It's like slipping on half way up and then falling back down to the ground.

Like all mentions of the sea of oblivion and the depths are the exact same thing, it's always at the bottom and described in such terms.

 

[Tarang123]

You aren't, but you also are wrong. They fall there because it is the depths of the ladder. It's like slipping on half way up and then falling back down to the ground.

Well, it’s more of a metaphysical ladder of restrictions, so technically what I said still seems to work

It being the bottom also wouldn’t work cause the human domain is always depicted as the absolute bottom hence why there’s no danger of falling into oblivion from there.

 

[Accelerate420]

Well, it’s more of a metaphysical ladder of restrictions, so technically what I said still seems to work

It being the bottom also wouldn’t work cause the human domain is always depicted as the absolute bottom hence why there’s no danger of falling into oblivion from there.

See it this way : if they hit that ground, they aren't in the Human Domain. They're more like...in the ground, or the earth metaphorically. As in they hit the ground and die. Hence = non-existence / non-life.

Though really it doesn't matter wherever it is since I don't think it's beyond the Creators and my argument is on the ladder itself.

 

[Darksmash]

It's literally described as being the absolute bottom of the Ladder. Even if it's not 'literal' in what sense you think,

Scans?

Cope.

Bruh

So if I pick up a book and there's specific statement stated in it (Let's say it's a red statement) and I say 'Well, actually I don't think that's true.' That doesn't immute the Red stated in the book just because I don't see it that way. 'Facts' do not change depending on what layer you're observing them from. You proved it yourself with this logic.

You aren't even reading what I am typing. Red Truths when used as conceptual denial weapons aren't the facts themselves, but the facts being used as a medium to shape weapons of conceptual denial. An abstract fact cannot take the form of a wedge or a spear. That should be clear as day.

Like, why would a fact spoken on one layer not apply to another just because it's perceived as fiction? If anything that doesn't make it any less true. It's like if I read a book again, and it had a statement of 'destroying the planet' and then the planet blue up. Just because I'm seeing it as fiction doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's factual that it happened in that fiction no matter what I say.

Multiple flaws can be pointed out in this:
-As I already said above, truths when used as weapons aren't the facts themselves but something that's shaped from the facts and used as a weapon
-Something that's factual on a lower layer can indeed be vague on a higher layer because of how the Umineko cosmology works. Catboxes.

You need to explain it because you're doubting it and going against it. You can't claim it's a flaw if you have no proper explanation for why it is one. Anyways, I don't remember the point of why we're debating this but it's clear this is a stalemate.

Oh wow so you literally ignored the extremely detailed explanation that I provided while focusing on the last sentence that was completely unrelated to the argument? Just how desperate are you?

Ironic.

Ok

Have we read the same

How does that prove Red Truths warp reality? Posting a scan without elaborating doesn't mean anything.

Also the fundamental reason is because of the Devil's Proof, not because of whatever headcanon you just said lol

You can't use red truth to lie. Witches being part of the Cosmology is a fundamental truth, so you can't deny it. It's quite simple and honestly I kinda lost you halfway through your first post and have no idea what you are even arguing anymore.

You aren't, but you also are wrong. They fall there because it is the depths of the ladder. It's like slipping on half way up and then falling back down to the ground.

Like all mentions of the sea of oblivion and the depths are the exact same thing, it's always

First of all Lambda literally never mentions Oblivion in memoirs. Also it seems there has been a misunderstanding, in Lambda's analogy going "down" actually means ascending the hierarchy.

 

[Accelerate420]

You aren't even reading what I am typing. Red Truths when used as conceptual denial weapons aren't the facts themselves, but the facts being used as a medium to shape weapons of conceptual denial. An abstract fact cannot take the form of a wedge or a spear. That should be clear as day.


Multiple flaws can be pointed out in this:
-As I already said above, truths when used as weapons aren't the facts themselves but something that's shaped from the facts and used as a weapon
-Something that's factual on a lower layer can indeed be vague on a higher layer because of how the Umineko cosmology works. Catboxes.

Catboxes are just personal sea of fragments for the possibilities of that world the Territory is based on. That's not inherently true because Battler is definitely dead on all lower layers and it's impossible for Ange or anyone else to claim he isn't. Even as ANGE-BEATRICE, a Witch, she had to rely on the Golden Truth instead to tank that Red. So 'Vague' here is not really true. There ARE Red's that affect the entire cosmology as Facts.

?
Everything you just said about the truth is semantics. Here's what happens :

I said a fact in Red. I conceptualize it into a blade. I strike you with it. That blade will not weave any red if I do not produce a Red Truth, meaning my blade only gains power via those Facts to begin with. I'm not debating the blades themselves, I'm stating the Red itself which is the facts that can be used as weapons are scalable to the ladder bar Creators.

Oh wow so you literally ignored the extremely detailed explanation that I provided while focusing on the last sentence that was completely unrelated to the argument? Just how desperate are you?

Sure lol if you wanna think that's how this went

Ok

How does that prove Red Truths warp reality? Posting a scan without elaborating doesn't mean anything.

Man if I have to spoon food you on this one...you know what, you can figure this out on your own, right? Think of it as a visual learning lesson.

You can't use red truth to lie. Witches being part of the Cosmology is a fundamental truth, so you can't deny it. It's quite simple and honestly I kinda lost you halfway through your first post and have no idea what you are even arguing anymore.

That's probably a fault of your own reading comprehension, so let me post why Witches can't be denied and not because of whatever headcanon you just said.

If you can't understand this I'll dumb it down for you :

Because one cannot prove for certain that Witches don't exist in any extension of reality, you cannot use a Red Truth to eliminate their existence on any layer

It's not that it's a fundamental truth, it's that it's impossible to say for certain on any layer or reality.

First of all Lambda literally never mentions Oblivion in memoirs. Also it seems there has been a misunderstanding, in Lambda's analogy going "down" actually means ascending the hierarchy.

That's interesting, but again regardless it's irrelevant to my point because I'm not scaling to Oblivion.

 

[Accelerate420]

Anyways this has been fun, I'll leave it to Ant to make the decision here.

 

[Darksmash]

Catboxes are just personal sea of fragments for the possibilities of that world the Territory is based on. That's not inherently true because Battler is definitely dead on all lower layers and it's impossible for Ange or anyone else to claim he isn't. Even as ANGE-BEATRICE, a Witch, she had to rely on the Golden Truth instead to tank that Red. So 'Vague' here is not really true. There ARE Red's that affect the entire cosmology as Facts.

Catboxes contain possibilities based on vagueness of a limited scope of events. Battler's death just exceeds that scope so it happens in all possibilities of the catbox, and hence is true. Also again "entire cosmology" still has to be proven. It affected Ange because, you know, it was used by Bern on the same layer.

I said a fact in Red. I conceptualize it into a blade. I strike you with it. That blade will not weave any red if I do not produce a Red Truth, meaning my blade only gains power via those Facts to begin with. I'm not debating the blades themselves, I'm stating the Red itself which is the facts that can be used as weapons are scalable to the ladder bar Creators.

The jump from "The blades are powered by the facts" to "Their potency would scale to the literal immutable abstract facts that are used to power them" is a massive leap of logic.

To give an analogy, suppose there is a verse with a similar cosmology where you can perform a fire spell from a certain chant. The same chant is used to cast the fire spell on every layer. What you are arguing is akin to saying "The fire spell has the same potency on each layer because the same chant is used to power it on every layer"

Sure lol if you wanna think that's how this went

Considering you completely ignored my explanation as if it didn't even exist I am leaning towards thinking that you had no counters.

Man if I have to spoon food you on this one...you know what, you can figure this out on your own,

Since your attitude isn't really helping I will take this as a concession

That's probably a fault of your own reading comprehension, so let me post why Witches can't be denied and not

If you can't understand this I'll dumb it down for you :

Because one cannot prove for certain that Witches don't exist in any extension of reality, you cannot use a Red Truth to eliminate their existence on any layer

It's not that it's a fundamental truth, it's that it's impossible to say for certain on any layer or reality.

That's literally what I said though? From the perspective of Battler he is saying that you cannot use the Red truth to state that witches don't exist because you can only state facts using it, and the devil's proof makes it so that you can't declare the nonexistence of something as factual, while you can declare their existence as factual from a simple example.

While we, as readers, know that the existence of witches is factual to the entire cosmology. So we don't really need to apply Devil's proof from our perspective because we already know.

 

[Tarang123]

Anyway, it's best to discuss the tiering of truths on a different thread, as we've already prolonged this thread enough. Just finish the changes and close the thread

 

[Pepsiman25th]

how the truths coming along

 

[Tarang123]

how the truths coming along

Discussions are still going on

 

[Darksmash]

Just unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats

 

[Tarang123]

Just unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats

Just nuke the verse

 

[Odinson]

Just nuke the verse

Y ?

 

[Tarang123]

Y ?

was a joke, my dude

 

[Odinson]

Bruh, you type anything and then slash is out to make it a joke

 

[PrinceofPein]

was there any instance of truth from lower world affecting a higher world or something?

 

[Darksmash]

was there any instance of truth from lower world affecting a higher world or something?

I don't think so. Pieces can affect GM with truths but that's mostly because GMs are subject to the rules they create for the gameboard as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Given the issue, it would take unreasonnable amount of waiting, which I highly not recommand.

Well, I don't want us to risk making unreliable NLF additions without anybody I know to be reliable to evaluate them.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Darksmash seems to make better sense to me above regarding the truths.

Both he and Accelerate need to try to be polite though.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, what do I need to help out with here, regarding locking and unlocking pages for example?

 

[Darksmash]

Both he and Accelerate need to try to be polite though.

I apologise for my behaviour. I feel like Accelerate was being a bit aggressive which kinda pushed me to take an aggressive stance as a defense. I tried to tone it down near the end.

 

[Darksmash]

Also, what do I need to help out with here, regarding locking and unlocking pages for example?

Unlock Black Battler and Theory Goats

 

[Darksmash]

Unlock Hanyuu Furude and Rika Furude as well

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the pages.

I would appreciate if somebody tells me here when I should re-lock any of the currently unlocked pages.

 

[Antvasima]

I apologise for my behaviour. I feel like Accelerate was being a bit aggressive which kinda pushed me to take an aggressive stance as a defense. I tried to tone it down near the end.

No problem.

 

[Darksmash]

I would appreciate if somebody tells me here when I should re-lock any of the currently unlocked pages.

You can lock the 4 profiles above now as well as all the other character profiles that were mentioned by Yuri previously. Leave truths though

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will handle it.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, can somebody write a list with all of the EXACTLY worded titles for all of the Umineko pages that I unlocked previously please? That would simplify things a lot for me.

 

[Ebitan34]

I agree with Accelerator.