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1A characters basically automatically have irrelevant speed, which is transcending and fundamentally being above the entire speed formula conceptually. It doesn't apply to lower speed tiers
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When Creators Cry: Answer Arcs (Yes, it's a downgrade)
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
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Except for the fact that 1A characters are different in the manner where they just can't be defined by the things used to measure speed itself, so this kind of comparison doesn't work either way. Immeasurable speed is only unbound by linear time, it has nothing to do with transcendence. Irrelevant is completely to do with transcendence hence why transcending time isn't enough for immeasurable.
Well, seeing as he's not going to be 1A for much longer, the irrelevant speed tier would have never been a thing. And no, the transcendence wouldn't give him immeasurable speed. He'd be immeasurable due to scaling to characters that can traverse across several kakeras and stuff like that
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Battler is unbounded by linear time to the point he views it as fiction and can rewrite it however he likes.
What does the word "transcendence" mean to you? I think this might be the key between misunderstandings.
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Show where that's stated please.
again, statements of transcending time aren't enough for immeasurable speed. You need to outright show that he's able to traverse time however he pleases due to being unbound by its linear nature.
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The context was that the time in Battler's physical world was part of his Creation because Time is also part of the "story" he could write and rewrite anytime, if he created the concept of Time in his own gameboard, he is automatically unbounded by the linear time of the physical world he created since the time is fiction to him within his chessboard. Whatever time it is in the chess board doesn't doesn't bound Game Master Battler in anyway.
Isn't this common sense.
Darksmash
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It's relevant to the thread. Discussing all conflicts in tiering in a single thread related to the verse instead of making different threads for each is far more efficient.
Darksmash
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"Transcending time" on its own would be vague, yes. But in this case we have context that meta beings can access any time period of the lower layers and manipulate it however they want. So they can access the year 2010 and kidnap a kid and take him back in time to punch his own father before he was born. I would say that seems fine as immeasurable speed to me.
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Eeeh, this one isn't exactly true, especially for Beato's gameboard.
It also seems that Ebitan has a lot of trouble understanding the system.
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May I know how am I understanding anything wrongly when my description literally fits the Wiki's explanation?
If a person can travel to any point of time anywhere at his will, meaning he is not bounded by linear time, that person is Immeasurable in speed, isn't this exactly what the wiki means.
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So, what needs to be changed? Nuke the Creator's page and...?
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- #851
Anything done by x manipulation doesn't qualify for Immeasurable, nor does transcending time by itself.
And that's besides the fact that Immeasurable is just wanked time travel as well.
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Creators stuff nuking the page + adjusting in consequence
-The Tiering is mostly agreed (1-B Meta Beings, possibly High 1-B Great Witches/Avatar Feath, 1-A Creators/Feath)
-Witches being concepts or only drawing powers from them was discussed between Ultima and Darkmash, but then Ultima disappeared so idk what Darkmash prefers here
-Truths stops being smurf
-Oblivion is a background but nobody scales to it actually
-Bye Bye Santa Claus
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Now I am confused tbh
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The pages are locked lmao.
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why is santa getting yeeted anyway...?
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Then what qualify for immeasurable to you?
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Yuri seems to dismiss Immeasurable speed entirely and believes that it is just a way to wank Time Travel.
I am very confused at this point :shrugs:
Darksmash
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Why not? Based on context the Kakeras contain the entire worldline of the universe they represent. And we directly see Battler warping the past of a Kakera as Ebitan posted above.
Ultima said he disagrees with this point btw. Not sure if he will comment though
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- #859
One page joke in bonus.
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- #860
As some know already, I am all for Immeasurable's deletion.
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- #861
Wasn't he the one who brought it to begin with ?
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Why? A character can attack in past via sheer speed what's wrong with that?
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- #865
It's just a form of Time Travel, unrelated to the character's actual speed in itself.
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time travel linked to speed
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- #868
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if punching your opponent's dad in the dick is a wincon then immeasurable speed is good
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Tbh the Inmensurable speed rating is the most reliable rank we can go by now on the wiki. I just can't think of another way of measuring this type of speed. Anyway, I'll stop delearing the thread now.
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Just don't invent shit like it being a definite speed when fiction just makes you time travel at whatever speed they want.
It's that easy.
Anyway, back to thread.
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But none of that is done with actual speed. It would just be time manipulation
Darksmash
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Manipulating something that's already infinitesimal from their POV.
Considering the meta world physically embeds the timelines of the lower worlds I would say any movement in it would qualify for immeasurable speed anyway
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Lmao
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I can assist with applying this revision, though I do have to ask for one of the supporters within this thread to give a quick summarization on the exacts of what's being applied since it looks like it has been lost within the last few dozen messages or so.
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These kinda stuff take time, especially when I'm asked to wait for stuff.
Anyway, I'll write the names in the next comment, but here's the justifications changes for the characters (blogs n stuff later). Note that it only is for the keys with 1-A stuff and above in them.
Also, since the Voyagers' concept form (last key) is being discussed, it should be better to wait or just put it at 1-B with a justification explaining it being at least CoB level, which is what I did (although imo these should be removed).
William, Dlanor + every characters in the Humans (besides Black Battler) and Furnitures (besides Theory Goats, Chiesters Sisters n Wild Cats) sections of the verse page all should have their 1-A stuff changed to 1-B with the following justification for their AP section:
Hyperverse level (Manifested in the City of Books, one of the highest places in the Witch Domain, above the majority of the infinite layers of existence leading to the Creator Domain)
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Wild Cats would be their current justifications but with Outerverse replaced by Hyperverse level:
Hyperverse level (Transcend the hierarchies of the Human Domain and exists as conceptual beings of the Witch Domain. Tore Will apart in the Witch's Theatre. Scared Sorcerer Battler and Meta Ange. Can manifest on their master's plane of existence) | Hyperverse level (As the Leviathan they are the combination of all of Bernkastel's cats, over 10 quadrillions. Dwarfs entire constructs which house books that contain entire worlds within them, as well as other beings who are larger than these constructs themselves. Bit off Lambdadelta's limbs)
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Chiester Sisters should keep their justifications with a slight change where it matters, giving us:
Hyperverse level (Capable of manifesting and being summoned in the same plane of existence as their master, and were eventually brought to the same level of existence as Ange-Beatrice in the City of Books, one of the highest realm in the World of Witches, in which Umineko's tale is seen as one story among countless others, and where Voyager Witches store any fragments they find in their endless travels)
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Erika is a similar case, giving us:
Hyperverse level (Capable of manifesting wherever her masters allows her to, including realms such as the City of Books, one of the highest places in the entire World of Witches
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Eva-Beatrice's last key would be:
Hyperverse level (Manifested in the City of Books, one of the highest places in the Witch Domain, above the majority of the infinite layers of existence leading to the Creator Domain, where she killed all of Bernkastel's Cats, overwhelming them even after they merged together into a single entity)
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Virgilia would be:
Hyperverse level (Allowed manifest within Aurora's Study, and was later brought to the City of Books, both of which are realms among the highest places among the infinite layers of existence)
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Battler Ushiromiya would be:
Hyperverse level (Manifested in the City of Books, one of the highest realm in the World of Witches, above the majority of the infinite layers of existence leading to the Creator Domain, with a a single book in it being able to record all of Umineko, with the lives of individual characters taking up little more than a single line. The world of his territory eventually came to encompass the City of Books as well, allowing him to fight against Bernkastel and completely overpower her to the point she was forced to abuse the rules of the gameboard to defeat him, making her "writhe in anguish" with a punch and vomit blood with a kick)
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Beatrice two last keys would be:
Hyperverse level ((Manifested in the City of Books, one of the highest realm in the World of Witches, above the majority of the infinite layers of existence leading to the Creator Domain, with a a single book in it being able to record all of Umineko, with the lives of individual characters taking up little more than a single line) | Hyperverse level, will eventually become far higher (Would completely transcends the Witch's Domain, quickly ascending and evolving through the last steps of the infinite ladder and eventually reaching Featherine's level of existence)
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Ange Ushiromiya would be:
Hyperverse level (Allowed to manifest in Aurora's Study, an even higher realm which exists above the entire World of Witches, and was later brought to the City of Books, which exists on a far higher plane than everything else in the series and could contain her entire life and journey so far as a single line of a book) | Hyperverse level (Awakened to her true nature as a Witch of Resurrection and gained dominion over Battler's gameboard, which had extended to encompass even the City of Books, allowing her to revive all of her friends and family and bring all of them to her own level of existence, something said to be only possible for a witch of the Senate. Her golden truth completely negated Bernkastel's Red Truths and made her family invulnerable to all of her attacks, and her golden eagle ultimately overpowered the Witch of Miracles completely and caused her to revert into a cat form, creating an earthquake which shattered the ceiling of the City of Books)
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Bernkastel would be:
Hyperverse level (Manifested within Aurora's Study and the City of Books, and stood as the game master of her own territory that encompassed both realms. Her casual battle against Lambdadelta created Big Bangs and Big Crunches on the scale of the City of Books, destroying large structures capable of containing countless stories as large as the entirety of Umineko. Exists in a state of eternal evolution through the layers of the sea of fragments, constantly ascending to higher and higher realms until she eventually becomes a Creator) | Hyperverse level (Exists as a purely abstract, universal law whose influence extends at least up to the City of Books)
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Lambdadelta would be:
Hyperverse level (Manifested in the City of Books, where her casual fight against Bernkastel created several Big Bangs and Big Crunches that damaged shelves capable of containing countless stories, with Umineko as a whole being only one of them and repeatedly described as "short" in comparision to some of the tales contained there. Exists in a state of eternal evolution through the layers of the sea of fragments, constantly ascending to higher and higher realms until she eventually becomes a Creator) | At least Hyperverse level (Exists as a purely abstract, universal law whose influence extends at least up to the City of Books)
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Piece would be:
Hyperversal level (As a Voyager Witch, Piece is immensely superior to Territory Lords such as Battler and Beatrice and exists on one of the highest plane in existence, being part of the Senate, the highest-ranking witches in existence who administer and decide the worth of all tales, and thus comparable or superior to Bernkastel and Lambdadelta. Exists in a process of continuous evolution through the ladder of infinite steps that is the Witch Domain, being able to adapt her own existence to deeper and deeper layers with increasingly less limitations and restrictions until she becomes a Creator. Compared herself to a candle whose flames are derived from [[Featherine Augustus Aurora]], referring to the power granted to her by the latter) | Hyperverse level (Exists as a purely abstract, universal law whose influence extends at least up to the City of Books)
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Maria Ushiromiya's last two keys would be:
Hyperverse level (Manifested in the City of Books, one of the highest places in the Witch Domain, above the majority of the infinite layers of existence leading to the Creator Domain) | Outerverse level (Would become the greatest Creator of all time , with a total inability to be bored, putting her above even [[Featherine Augustus Aurora|Featherine]])
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Featherine Augustus Aurora keys would be:
Hyperverse level (Stands above everyone in the Umineko story, and perceives its entirety as the script of a book which she can edit and modify at will, seeing Witches and their territories as being mere pieces on a chessboard. Resides in the highest layers of existence, possibly the one right before the Creator Domain, where a true self resides) | Outerverse level (Exists as a fundamental principle of the world, being described as the pillar that sustains the universe, from which universal laws and forces are derived and through which they are sustained. The difference between the Human World and the Higher Domains is described as being meaningless to her, with both Featherine Augustus Aurora and Tohya Hachijo being stated to be equally trivial and temporary roles being played by an indescribable "actor" entity, who exists independently from both identities. As a Creator, she is completely boundless and devoid of any existential limits and restrictions, transcending the infinite layers that make up the world of Umineko).
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The Creator and Santa Claus would be:
Y E E T E D
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Rikimarox2
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I could help as well, btw.
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