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Whats with Buu saga Goku being 4-B? It is stated in the daizenshuu that he is slightly stronger than kid buu at ssj3.

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Ghostofthesea

Ghostofthesea

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In kai, the reviewed edition, it is stated buu is destroying galaxies. Not to mention, kai specifically cut out whats non-canon: it was made to be the precise(canon-only) final edition. But that arguement is not gonna work here because of the rules of this wiki or whatever is denying this feat.

With that out of the way, read this: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:SSJRyu1/Kid_Buu_the_galaxy_buster by SSJRyu1

Keep in mind thats an arguement for just destroying grand-kaio's planet not entire heaven.


Also look:https://imgur.com/a/2H7D9zV

In the anime it was stated kid buu would destroy the entire universe, including heaven. Buuhan and Vegito clashing also caused a rift between both dimensions...

Manga chapter 510 is called the a battle with the universe at stake...


Some people argue that buu destroys the universe gradually; that in itself is a contradiction. If he can destroy it gradually it means he has the potential to destroy the whole universe. It means he has ENOUGH ENERGY to destroy the universe. Buu does NOT absorb energy from other living beings except by absorption of powerful warriors. This only leads to the conclusion that if buu can do it gradually, this is his attack potency. If required, and not for just random fun, he will unleash all that energy at once.

Conclusion: Anime-only: No debate exists, buu is atleast multi-galaxy, with buuhan and vegito universe level+

Manga: The manga 510 title and the dialogues clearly confirm that the universe is at risk.
 
The original manga is the source material. That's what's considered canon. Also, there's still contradictory filler scenes in Kai, such as Goku falling into lava instead of water, or Vegeta seeing SS Goku vs Frieza fight on Namek.

In the original manga, Buu never teleported to the afterlife, he went straight to Goku and Vegeta and no such statement about destroying the Grand Kai's Planet was given. This "feat" doesn't even occur at all outside the anime.

Frieza was also given the same acolades, yet he's not shown to be capable of destroying the universe, and neither is Kid Buu.
 
@ByAsura

Sure, I'll give you that. In the manga there's no evidence supporting that buu can actually destroy the universe. Just that the universe is at stake, chapter 510 title: " A battle with the universe at stake". Given that all the titles are very precise in this series - every single title reflected what was going on - we can conclude that its factual. The universe was at stake. Since it is a stake it is quite the lowball to say that he is only solar system. Come on lol.

A word about contradictions. The manga also had contradictions, eg cell saying that he could've taken trunks cells but from the timeline he was in there wasn't trunks(except as a baby 3 years later). Don't use the arguement the anime is not the real thing because the anime has contradictions.

The anime version is then different than the manga version. In super, the manga and anime had their differences. At the very least, because of the dbz culture(most people are familiar with the anime than the manga), we should have their tier for the anime. All kinds of media(mainly games and movies) portray goku's strength from the anime. For example, gogeta/janemba scaling does not make sense with manga scaling. This is normal. In short, we should have their anime tier because the anime is the real deal. I had a statement before from toriyama saying that all occurences in the anime(he never said anything about movies/games. That statement was specific to the DBZ anime.) are true to the dragon ball world. I will find it later and post it here. The author is dictates at will what is canon and what is not.

The 'goku' that everyone knows is the goku from the anime. I'm betting you that most people have never seen a black/white dbz fight lol. Dragonball fights are all about flashy beams, repeated hand-to-hand scenes, and that is what the majority of the fandom remembers when we say a dbz fight...


TLDR: Your non-canon arguement really does not apply to DBZ. @Planck69 Given the anime as evidence that is not a ridiculous statement. Though, I'd say it is more accurate as 3-A. Kid buu would be 3-B as we literally saw him wipe out a galaxy relatively quickly.
 
So because the titles are specific, that means Buu is Universe level? Also, the first chapter of the manga literally calls Goku the monkey king, the 122nd chapter is called the Galaxy Strikes Back, and the 232nd is named Strongest in the Heavens. Dragon Ball titles can be exaggerated, and this clearly one of those cases. Plus, the only name I could find for 510 was "Battle For The Universe", nothing about it being at stake.

My point was the anime has scenes that directly go against what the manga shows, not that it's inconsistent with events. No, Gero planned on taking Future Trunks' cells during his battle with Frieza in the main Dragon Ball timeline where Goku doesn't die, but he had enough samples already. It's not a contradiction if you look at the context.

It's water in the original.

We already have Dragon Ball anime profiles, I'm just saying it doesn't scale to the manga. If anything, that point about Gogeta/Janemba scaling just goes to prove why the anime isn't canon.

We're talking about the creators of Dragon Ball here, not an American who was born in the 80s and saw it as a kid.
 
different languages have different words to describe the same things. All translations of chapter 510 point to the universe itself is at risk/ chance of universe destruction/ a battle for the sake of the universe etc. lets not argue semantics. I think it is very clear that the whole universe is actually at stake.

These chapters names are all actually meaningful in fact refer to something very specific:

122: Here comes son goku ?? nothing about the monkey king

232: the moon ( cuz vegeta great ape ) nothing about Strongest in the heavens

I'm confused as to where you get your titles from.

510: https://imgur.com/a/HNI3bRZ A battle with the whole universe at stake. Because buu is literally gonna destroy everything lol.

Ok about anime vs manga

I'll show you that the contradiction with cell/trunks's cells exists:http://image.prntscr.com/image/4ffd0b656d9742f491ed727f468e118d.png It is a very common "plot hole" in the fandom. There are MANY contradictions with dbz. In fact, the whole contradictions issue supports my case because the big ones are mentioned in both the anime and the manga. The small ones such as water changing to lava really do not have any impact on the plot. In our example, the universe is at stake is a very important plot point. The anime has gone to great lengths to convey it. The manga was brief and just implied it through character interactions and a title. The TITLE is source material even according to this site's rules.

When everything is taken into context, it really makes sense. It is no outlier. The anime elaborated. If you understand DBZ, which I'm sure you do, you don't need me to give inter-character evidence that the stakes are big in this fight. You know the kais(later the link was revealed: kais are the creation/protection analog to the GoD. They oversee the whole universe. But you don't even need to know this to understand the context) interfered. You know that goku was the last hope of the universe. You know that different realms are being threatened.

You don't understand my point. For the dragon ball series, the anime is considered canon whether you like it or not. Also, some anime-filler characters were even designed by toriyama himself. Furthermore, toriyama said that all anime events are true to the db universe...the author's word is canon.


If you are stubborn and will just not consider the anime canon, despite the whole point of kai + author statement, then please explain the context of the universe being destroyed. Within the manga, and why the kais interfered.


Another feat that may be relevant as to why I perceive buu saga more than 4-B is that gotenks broke the RoSaT barrier just by shouting. That's bridging the barriers between dimensions where extreme time dialation exists. You gotta understand the energy required to do that.


Also relevant to discussion: https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_inconsistencies some are anime only and some are anime+manga


Kai is the corrected and final version of the story... it has been edited to fix alot of inconsistensies, contradictions, and filler-only things. But yeah whatever lmao. Just ignore what I say.


here is a supporting example. There are many: When Super Perfect Cell returns, he explains that he was able to regenerate because the part of his brain that allows Regenerationn survived his self-destruction. However, Cell's entire upper body, head included, had been vaporized by Goku in a Kamehameha blast earlier, and he regenerated from the remains of the torso. If the Regenerationn core was in the brain, this should have been a fatal blow. This inconsistency is not present in Funimation's English dub of the anime, as Cell states that "every cell in his body has a life of its own", and that one survived, which allowed him to regenerate. This was also corrected in Dragon Ball Z Kai. -dbfandom wiki article above. Don't believe that this was mentioned in the manga? https://imgur.com/a/HwmSoIw

IF in-verse analysis is not ok with you then read: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/. You have no arguement to use.

Again, I'll say it annoys me to a great extent you consider kai(and by extension, the anime) non-canon
 
I was getting them from everywhere except kanzenshuu, I guess. Regardless, this is a b.s hypebole and you have literally no proof other than statements that were also applied to the likes of Frieza and Cell. The Kais never say this in the original Manga, it's Piccolo and Goku. In Kai, they only say it twice.

So fine here's some from from Kanzehsuu; Dark Clouds Swirl Over Planet Namek, Premonitions of a Great War, and The Hatred of the Universe, Pierces Freeza!!. That's not including chapters that have titles clearly designed for hype.

You're right about that part (it was like 1:00 am when I wrote that, by the way). However, Cell doesn't hail from Future Trunks' timeline. He comes from another timeline where a different Trunks already killed the androids, and Cell had to kill him in order to steal his time machine. That's why there was another Cell in Future Trunks' timeline. They had every opportunity to steal his cells, whether it be as a baby, a teenager, or even after his death if Cell is referring to himself as "we" here. Now, If you're talking about the images being the same, then that's probably just lazy art, because Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan's pictures were also taken directly from the manga.

The universe being at stake is not a plot point, it's an exaggeration to hype up the stakes. Kid Buu is extremely destructive, and in the past he's destroyed hundreds of planets in years. The title probably refers to him being a horribly destructive force and having zero opposition, so that's what's making him a huge threat to the universe.

Give me evidence of the anime being canon to the manga, and I'll believe you. Although, I believe there's one statement that' in spanish instead of Japanese or English, I can't remember.

First of all, you missed my entire point. It's not about plot holes, it's about how the manga is completely different from the animes. Second, most of those inconsistentcies aren't even really inconsistencies, more anachronisms, art, out of contex moments, editorial decisions changing, and filler scenes. There's only a few actual inconsistencies, and that's A) Goku can't survive in space, B) the Dragon Balls should've been stones in the Red Ribbon Saga, C) Gohan and Krillin not knowing about Vegeta's wish, D) A few random people not being revived when the should have, and E) Cell's core.

By the way, everyone knows that Cell said this and your image doesn't even work.

I'm completely fine with in-verse analysis, that's all I do on this wiki, I just don't use hyperboles and obvious exaggerations to make events seem bigger than they actually are. Also, I know Kai was meant to be a revision of the anime, everyone and their grandma does, but that doesn't mean it's canon to the manga.

It annoys me when people say shit like this. You act like you're a Dragon Ball savant who knows everything.
 
ByAsura said:
I was getting them from everywhere except kanzenshuu, I guess. Regardless, this is a b.s hypebole and you have literally no proof other than statements that were also applied to the likes of Frieza and Cell. The Kais never say this in the original Manga, it's Piccolo and Goku. In Kai, they only say it twice.
So fine here's some from from Kanzehsuu; Dark Clouds Swirl Over Planet Namek, Premonitions of a Great War, and The Hatred of the Universe, Pierces Freeza!!. That's not including chapters that have titles clearly designed for hype.
Click to expand...
Piccolo is kami as well. His statement holds so much weight lmao. Look, what I'm getting at, is that the anime ELABORATES on the manga, trying to make sense of it because any manga reader(dbz) knows that it is way faster paced than the anime and does not go into detail explaining everything. In multiple instances, the anime explained things that were only mentioned once in the manga. In our example, piccolo said the universe is at stake. You are the one who posted that scan. The title( pretty good source material ) stated that the universe is at stake. These are two "source materials". The anime expanded on that as we know it. Finally, kai, the reviewed edition, stated the same. Why are you inclined to believe that there is no risk of the universe?

2) the universe at stake is not at plot point.


Seriously? Yes it is. The earth goku explored from the beggining of his life was wiped out in an instant. Gotenks, vegeta, and piccolo all died. The rest of the universe is about to suffer the same fate. The battle at kai world is the final one; goku must win or the universe will be truly wiped out. If the stakes weren't high nothing would make sense...
 
Piccolo, despite merging with Kami, has very different abilities. For example, he can't produce Dragon Balls. He even has to rely directly on ki sensing during the battle between Vegeta, Trunks and Cell, and was completely taken off guard when the Androids arrived at Roshi's house. Also, Piccolo says directly that all life in the universe will be wiped out here, not the cosmos itself.

I didn't say there's no risk to the universe, I said it doesn't mean he's going to destroy it outright. I certainly believe he could depopulate it in a few million years, even before getting the Kai's ability to teleport.

You ignored what I was actually trying to say; the universe being destroyed is not a plot point, it's Buu's rampage if he's not stopped. If he could truly destroy the universe, he probably would've done it already.
 
No... buu likes to mess around. How could you not catch that? He clearly enjoys combat besides destruction. He's not gonna just blow up everything at one shot. Even he knows that's boring. Don't use that arguement. Saiyan saga vegeta could blow up the planet with galick gun. Why did no one in the android saga try to blow up earth? Just because they can does not mean they will do it. You have to take into account that the kaioshin interfered with buu. Because buu is a univeral level threat. Piccolo said all life will be wiped out - but that is just one piece of evidence. Source material Evidence Manga 510 title: Universe at stake Piccolo statement ( all life in the universe ) Kaioshin interference in the first place When we take into account those two statements it might seem like an outlier. Sure. But when you consider the anime, it adds more credibility. Especially with the galaxy busting feat making 4-B a joke. Because there is "incomplete" evidence from the manga, we have to rely on other sources. Kai is a credible source, toriyama confirmed it is canon and the final, revised version. He also said the anime(dbz) is part of the true events, but it is much easier to find statements relating to kai. Here's one source:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/episode/kai/toriyama_cut.png?x30122

"Akira toriyama original cut version". Yes that is 100% proof.
 
He craves destruction and murder in his Kid Buu form, that's why he tried to blow up Earth the instant he transformed, Super Buu is the fighter who explicitly has a body tuned for physical combat and the arrogance of 3 saiyans that he absorbed. Fat Buu is mindless and enjoys fighting as well as killing.

The Androids didn't want to destroy the Earth and were less violent than their future counterparts, they just wanted to kill Goku. Super Saiyan Vegeta even says he's holding back to not destroy the Earth while fighting 18. Cell was trying to absorb the Androids and test the power of his Perfect Form, after the Zenkai he did try to destroy the Earth. He was also going to self-destruct to destroy the Earth in his Semi-Perfect form, and clearly didn't care about blowing up the planet during his fight with Goku.
 
Ghostofthesea said:
No... buu likes to mess around. How could you not catch that? He clearly enjoys combat besides destruction. He's not gonna just blow up everything at one shot. Even he knows that's boring. Don't use that arguement. Saiyan saga vegeta could blow up the planet with galick gun. Why did no one in the android saga try to blow up earth? Just because they can does not mean they will do it.
Click to expand...
Nobody in the Android Saga wanted to destroy the Earth. And if you count the Cell saga as part of it, he actually did try it. And the first thing Kid Buu did upon being awakened was destroy the Earth. Using both anime and manga scenes, we see Kid Buu destroying Galaxies at a time by wiping out planets individually or Mulit Solar System level chunks of it
 
So what about statement of Kid Buu blowing Grand Kai planet? Do we take it as legit feat or as hyperbole statement?
 
I'm not sure. We should probably get more opinions and evidence.
 
We can discuss it here or if its derailing then I made a thread here too which you can check it out if you want to

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3830682

Seems pretty hyperbolic to me because not only is destroying Grand Kaio planet literal outlier because Kid Buu has 4-A feat but Multi Galaxy to Universal isn't reached until DBGT

So we only have 2 statements supporting it mostly 1

1) Statement of Kid Buu destroying Grand Kaio planet

2) King Kai saying its all over after looking at the blast but thats vague

So I believe the statement should be dismissed as hyperbole if he can do it then outlier because nothing suppots Kid Buu and anyone in DBZ level being multi galaxy to universal level
 
To be fair, scaling doesn't make something not a hyperbole. It seems the writers did intend, at least in this scene, for Buu to destroy the planet before teleporting away.
 
Yes it does look like he would destroy it but going by scaling and power its either hyperbole or outlier because 3-B to 3-A Kid Buu makes no sense at all because DBGT starts with 3-C+ and goes 3-B to 3-A later on
 
My area said:
Yes it does look like he would destroy it but going by scaling and power its either hyperbole or outlier because 3-B to 3-A Kid Buu makes no sense at all because DBGT starts with 3-C+ and goes 3-B to 3-A later o
Click to expand...
Or GT gets bumped up accordingly scaling off of this, Probably not likely to be accepted unless there's compelling arguments but possible
 
Buu is multi-galaxy if we consider the kai to be canon. Nothing from the anime that we are using to scale kid buu contradicts the original manga. In fact, it expands on it.

I posted this above: https://imgur.com/a/2H7D9zV

The arguement being made is that kai isn't canon. I'm saying it is acknowledged by toriyama so it is canon.

As for kid buu's tier we have Grand kai planet feat + galaxy over time feat. Clearly atleast multi galaxy.
 
I have no real problem with anime Buu being Multi-Galaxy level, but I still think they're different from the manga. Anyway, I have a bunch of statements about canon. I'll post them.
 
I'd say it's half and half. He alludes to both sides of this argument at different points.

1. An interview from Akira Toriyama that's apparently from the Dragon Ball Dictionary (Daizenshuu 7 specifically). Source for the translations below.

  • 13: For example, drawing an image of a movement in a manga is relatively simple, but to animate this image, you had to decompose the movement and draw all the intermediary movements. That demands a colossal amount of work. (Ok, the example of Kame-sennin might not be the most appropriate...)
  • 14: Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories which are found in the anime didn't exist in the manga. Oolong: What's this? I never saw that in the manga...
  • END: As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!
  • Toriyama: Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga.
2. The anime movies are non-canon. One interview directly says it's non-canon "to the comic".

3. Toriyama says he's dissapointed by the heroic anime departure from his original work.

I had a few more, but they're too vague or refer to media like GT, the games and the Super manga.
 
Jo-Smooth said:
Or GT gets bumped up accordingly scaling off of this, Probably not likely to be accepted unless there's compelling arguments but possible
Click to expand...
Hmm possibly but it really looks like a hyperbole since there was no proof that he could actually destroy it in one shot or if this feat is accepted then hyperbole because GT introduces multi galaxy level opponents later on through Black smoke shenron etc but having Multi galaxy level Kid Buu is more reasonable than universal atleast because universal was introduced in end of GT ie by Omega
 
Buuhan's fight with vegito in the anime was really alluding to Universal Level tho. Cuz heaven and the real world are two different universes, and they were causing a rift between both worlds essentially.
 
Buuhan only broke dimension which caused the universe to collapse so its a unquantifiable feat and doesn't scale to Buuhan because he just broke dimension not destroy a universe
 
My area said:
Buuhan only broke dimension which caused the universe to collapse so its a unquantifiable feat and doesn't scale to Buuhan because he just broke dimension not destroy a universe
Click to expand...
The kais were genuinely worried that the whole world as they know it will begone, and the show made it clear that if vegito didn't interfere...

I think this is a fair analysis that uses my reasoning kinda. https://aminoapps.com/c/dragonballz...-not-universal/z6pu_xum3rDZGMmbRDqxx45YrYkP4Z

Puts him at low universal.
 
I am not disagreeing that feat is universal what I am saying is that Buuhan only broke the dimension barrier causing universe to collapse so he doesn't scale to chain reaction feat because breaking dimensional barrier is unquantifiable feat
 
I wanted to know why Frieza isn't rated universal, I found this in dbz here and here, in is sec form he can destroy the universe, is it an outlier, hyperbole and gonna be ignore? Thank you.
 
elhermanopadre said:
I wanted to know why Frieza isn't rated universal, I found this in dbz here and here, in is sec form he can destroy the universe, is it an outlier, hyperbole and gonna be ignore? Thank you.
Click to expand...
Hyperbole, really.

In context, Frieza is pretty much the most powerful thing in the universe at this point in the story. It's more of just emphazing that he could rampage across the universe and no one could really stop him. So, it's not that he can oneshot the universe, it's that he could completely tear up whatever he wanted in it and no one could oppose him. If he decided to just start exterminating life wherever he went, he could do so with impunity.
 
C2_of_Omegon said:
Hyperbole, really.

In context, Frieza is pretty much the most powerful thing in the universe at this point in the story. It's more of just emphazing that he could rampage across the universe and no one could really stop him. So, it's not that he can oneshot the universe, it's that he could completely tear up whatever he wanted in it and no one could oppose him. If he decided to just start exterminating life wherever he went, he could do so with impunity.
Click to expand...
I see, but both stated, refers to him having "ENOUGH" power to destroy the entire universe and from Kao sama it seems he was talking about second from Frieza to

have said energy, wouldn't that be the case for Omega Shenron since it's about the energy output of the karma ball and was discussed here. So if he has universal power would that count ?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...borating_on_the_God-Tiers'_AP?comments_page=1 ,

Thank you
 
elhermanopadre said:
I see, but both stated, refers to him having "ENOUGH" power to destroy the entire universe and from Kao sama it seems he was talking about second from Frieza to

have said energy, wouldn't that be the case for Omega Shenron since it's about the energy output of the karma ball and was discussed here. So if he has universal power would that count ?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:WindGodAcheron/Dragon_Ball_GT:_Elaborating_on_the_God-Tiers'_AP?comments_page=1 ,

Thank you
Click to expand...
The thing is, though, is that Omega Shenron doesn't just have a statement, he has an entire elaboration of just how he'd do it with the Minus Energy Ball to back it up that nets him 3-A. Elder Kai's speech takes a boast and turns it into a feat. Even then, he's 3-A only with that attack.

Frieza just has two statements with no further explanation. Could he do it all at once? Would it happen over time? The statements don't tell us and we have no feats to back those statements up. We'd have to assume that Frieza could destroy the entire universe all at once versus the alternative.

It all feels too nebulous and shallow to give him a rating on just that alone. Heck, Broly (Toei) and Kid Buu have been deemed threats to the universe and we don't grant them 3-A over it and both have much stronger scaling and Broly has a way better feat with destroying an entire galaxy in an unknown amount of time. So, really, it being said that a character is a threat or can destroy the universe is dime a dozen in DB and doesn't hold that much weight on its own. In addition, we'd have to make everyone 3-A whose stronger than 2nd form Frieza.
 
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