What logistics does VSBW use to argue Journey to Amasia as canonical to Manifoldverse

[Jibz]

Not devolving this into a CRT, but i will just say I personally don't believe AJTM is canonical, but hey Baxter's no amateur when it comes to connecting his stories, and it's always fun to converse about the subtle connections between stories. However, i'm not convinced that AJTM is canon. So before i go off in a flight of fancy, i'll simply ask. Why is it canonical?

Note: I personally don't believe that even if AJTM isn't canon it'll effect the tier 0 for Downstreamer's anyways, but hey its always good to be accurate. Also just because i think for now it isn't canon, DOESN'T MEAN IM RIGHT. And im well okay with being wrong, which is the main reason i made this. Also please buff Anna, why on earth is she human level...

 

[Guardian_Doge]

That's where it was proposed. Don't know the whole context though.

 

[Jibz]

That's where it was proposed. Don't know the whole context though.

ah thank you!

 

[Threemagi]

Basically, Amasia is connected to Dante Inferno/Dreams.

So, Dante thing is inside wherever Amasia is. Which is in Proxima/Ultima.

Dante thing is inside Phase Space collection of stories.

And also mentioned in Manifold Space itself.

Tbh, I havent posted the connection between Manifold Space-Dante-Amasia thing either.
So It seems I inadvertly made things more hazier for everyone.

Anyway, maybe I'll post CRT or maybe a Blog later.

Here is the relevant quote

Manifold Space Chapter 2 Baikonur Page 43

“Of course.” The first thinker to have expressed something like the modern notion of a plurality of worlds — planets orbiting Suns, many of them inhabited by beings more or less like humans. Earlier thinkers about other worlds had imagined parallel versions of a Dante’s Inferno pocket universe, centered on a stationary Earth. “You have to imagine other worlds before you can conceive of traveling there.”

Full page :

 

[Jibz]

Which is in Proxima/Ultima.

isn't the point of Proxima that the multiverse ISN'T infinite which causes the main issues in the novels, wouldn't that contradict Manifold?

 

[Jibz]

And also mentioned in Manifold Space itself.

By mentioned is just a thought experiment. It doesn't physically exist inside the manifold world, and you could argue the vague mention of the thought of it existing counts as it exists, but even writing that just made me think how flimsy it is. Especially since the reference is only due to the hypothesis of the contrast between the Gaijin's journey (looking for their "god") and the Vatican's christ.

Dante thing is inside Phase Space collection of stories.

And we're under the notion Phase Space in its entirety is canon to Manifold? If so that's kinda worrying.

So as far as i can see apparently Amasia connected to Manifold Space (it isn't) and it's connected to Phase Space which is canon to Manifold (which i don't believe to be the case).

 

[Livinmeme]

Please dont i couldnt stand WOD being the strongest verse in the wiki for severals months till china man ultimate requiem gets accepted into breaking maths

 

[Jibz]

Please dont i couldnt stand WOD being the strongest verse in the wiki for severals months till china man ultimate requiem gets accepted into breaking maths

Jesus, don't even bring up downgrading anything T.T

 

[Livinmeme]

Jesus, don't even bring up downgrading anything T.T

Is obvious that if many people start questioning this they will do a CRT, the same happened with popeye and demobane

 

[Jibz]

Is obvious that if many people start questioning this they will do a CRT, the same happened with popeye and demobane

Doubt anyone besides me is questioning this whilst also being knowledgeable on the verse

 

[Livinmeme]

Doubt anyone besides me is questioning this whilst also being knowledgeable on the verse

...... i know this comes rich from me but that wording man

 

[Jibz]

...... i know this comes rich from me but that wording man

whats wrong with it T.T

 

[Livinmeme]

Doubt anyone besides me is questioning this whilst also being knowledgeable on the verse

1. is doubting not doubt
2. Is worded weird, like old english style

 

[Jibz]

1. is doubting not doubt
2. Is worded weird, like old english style

1.Doubting would be improper syntax
2.Sounds normal to me, but maybe im just weird

 

[Livinmeme]

1.Doubting would be improper syntax
2.Sounds normal to me, but maybe im just weird

But you were refering people in plural tho, and doubt is singular

 

[Jibz]

But you were refering people in plural tho, and doubt is singular

The syntax should still work out unless im horribly mistaken. Regardless let's stop our off topic conversation whilst we wait for Threemagi's response.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

isn't the point of Proxima that the multiverse ISN'T infinite

Is there a scan for this somewhere?

 

[Threemagi]

isn't the point of Proxima that the multiverse ISN'T infinite which causes the main issues in the novels, wouldn't that contradict Manifold?

It itself is contradicted by infinite statement in Proxima itself.

Its a suspicion wether its infinite or not.

Well, all Manifold quotes are pretty much character quotes with very few omniscient narrator so... hehe. Manifold is also standing on shaky ground too here.

But anyway, there is/are quote opposing finite multiverse too. So its kind of a limbo.

By mentioned is just a thought experiment. It doesn't physically exist inside the manifold world, and you could argue the vague mention of the thought of it existing counts as it exists, but even writing that just made me think how flimsy it is. Especially since the reference is only due to the hypothesis of the contrast between the Gaijin's journey (looking for their "god") and the Vatican's christ.

True. Its just offhand mention at best.

And we're under the notion Phase Space in its entirety is canon to Manifold? If so that's kinda worrying.

So as far as i can see apparently Amasia connected to Manifold Space (it isn't) and it's connected to Phase Space which is canon to Manifold (which i don't believe to be the case).

Okay now that you mention it. Maybe it isnt.

The only ground to stand now is from one mention from Manifold Space.

Is there a scan for this somewhere?

some scholars have always believed that nature does not contain infinities. Infinities are just a useful mathematical toy invented by humans, with no correspondence to reality. Unlike the number three , say, which maps on to collections of three objects: three people, three potatoes …'

Stef said, 'Infinities can make sensible questions meaningless. Titus, start with the number one.'

'I think I can grasp that.'

'Add another one.'

'I have two.'

'Subtract one.'

'I have one again.'

'Add one.''Two.'

'Subtract one.'

'One!'

'Add one!'

'Two!'

'Subtract one!'

'One!'

She held up her hands. 'OK, that's enough. You get the idea. Now if I asked you to stop doing that after some finite number of steps – twelve or twenty-three or five hundred and seventy-eight – what answer would you get?'

'That's easy. Either two or one.'

'Definitely one or the other?'

'Of course.'

'But if I asked you to go on for ever , what answer would you end up with?'

'I – ah … Oh.'

'You see?' Stef said. 'The answer can't be determined. The question becomes absurd, once you bring infinity into it.'

Titus said, 'I can feel my brain boiling like the water in that pot.'

'Physics – my philosophy – is about asking sensible questions and expecting sensible answers. About being able to predict the future from the past. When you bring in infinities, sensible questions have dumb answers. The whole system breaks down.'

The ColU said, 'So the point is, the multiverse – the collection of the universes universes we visit – must be finite. Because nature won't allow infinities.'

Mardina scowled. 'Well, so what? What do I care if there is one reality, or ten or twenty or a million?'

Stef said, gently but persistently, 'It matters because a finite multiverse has an edge . And if one of the member universes should encounter that edge …' She looked into the pot of water, and pointed out one largish bubble slowly migrating from the boiling centre towards the side of the clay pot.

'Watch.' When the bubble reached the edge, it popped, vanishing as if it had never existed.

The ColU said, 'Given that one simple fact – that the multiverse must be finite – and knowing how old the universe is, or was in the age we came from – it has always been possible to make an estimate of how long the universe was going to last. How long it was likely to be before we hit the multiverse wall. Probabilistic only, but …'

For 'infinity quote', well, there's this :

'Look, we all know from personal experience that other universes exist, with histories more or less similar to this one – or to the one into which each of us was born. And in my culture our philosophers had predicted the existence of those universes. Our laws of nature were well founded, you see, but they did not prescribe how the universe had to be.

Many universes were possible – an infinite number. It is just as our science would have predicted the six-fold symmetry of a snowflake, which comes from the underlying geometry of ice crystals, but within that six-fold rule set many individual snowflakes are possible, all different from each other.'

'Universes as numerous as snowflakes,'

Beth said. 'That's wonderful. Scary.'

Stef said, 'But what are these universes? Where are they? You know that the science of my culture was more advanced than in any other we've yet encountered—'

The ColU said, 'And Earthshine would say that was because we had been the least deflected into efforts to build Hatches for his Dreamers.'

'We did have some models of the multiverse – I mean, of a super-universe that is a collection of universes. After centuries of study we never came to a definitive answer. We probably never got far out enough into our own universe to be able to map the truth.

'Still, we believed our universe had expanded from a single point, out of a Big Bang. Expanded, cooled, awash with light at first, atoms and stars and planets and people condensing out later. But our universe was like a single bubble in a bowl of boiling water, like a pot we put on the fire.' She gestured at the clay pot, within which water was languidly bubbling. 'You see? There is a substrate, something like the water in the pot. And out of that heated-up substrate emerges, not just one bubble, but a whole swarm of them, expanding, popping … They are the other universes we've been visiting.

'And what's inside those universes is going to be different, one universe to the next – a little or a lot. Some could differ wildly from the others, not just in historical details. Suppose gravity were stronger – I mean, the force that gives us weight. Then stars would be smaller, and would burn out more quickly. Everything would be different. And if gravity were weaker there might be no stars at all. Of course some universes are going to be more similar than others.'

It seemed to be Chu who understood most readily. Not for the first time Beth wondered what kind of scholar he might have become, given the chance.

'All the universes we have seen are similar. They all have planets, suns, people. They even have the same people, up to a point.'

'Yes,' Stef said eagerly. 'You've got it. When you think about it the differences are pretty small. I mean, whether Rome falls or not would be a big deal for us—' and she smiled as Titus scowled ferociously '—but from Per Ardua, say, you wouldn't even notice it.'

The ColU said, 'We believe that the Dreamers can somehow reach out to other universes that are – nearby . There is no good term for it. What is nearness in a multiverse? Beginning in one universe, they reach out into another that is similar, yet which contains a human culture that is more – conducive – to Hatch-building. And we, our small lives, are swept along in the process.'

And the other infinite quote is from Journey to Amasia, Woodin Cardinal infinite hierarchy thing.

Conclusion : Basically conflicting statements within the verse itself. Outlier or not outlier case, maybe.

If current quotes don't meet standard of VSB wiki, I don't really have problem if someone could take the trouble of downgrading the verse based on these quotes.

Maybe I can assist in assigning reference pages. But you can just type 'Proxima/Ultima' without specific page anyway, at worst case, haha.

 

[Jibz]

And the other infinite quote is from Journey to Amasia, Woodin Cardinal infinite hierarchy thing.

Conclusion : Basically conflicting statements within the verse itself. Outlier or not outlier case, maybe.

If current quotes don't meet standard of VSB wiki, I don't really have problem if someone could take the trouble of downgrading the verse based on these quotes.

Maybe I can assist in assigning reference pages. But you can just type 'Proxima/Ultima' without specific page anyway, at worst case, haha.

Is the woodin cardinal the reason it's tier zero? MUH tegmark multiverse IV would mean the Downstreamers would transcend all cardinals regardless, so their tiering should still be the same.

Okay now that you mention it. Maybe it isnt.

The only ground to stand now is from one mention from Manifold Space.

That truly is worrying.

 

[Threemagi]

Is the woodin cardinal the reason it's tier zero? MUH tegmark multiverse IV would mean the Downstreamers would transcend all cardinals regardless, so their tiering should still be the same.

From my understanding, Level IV explanation itself probably is not treated as Mahlo Cardinal even.

So without specific mention of Inaccessible Cardinality, they probably be back to Low 1-A or smth.

Baseline Level IV multiverse is Low 1-A iirc.

That truly is worrying.

All Phase Space being canon is worrying.

Some Phase Space not being canon is worrying.

So what is not 'worrying' then? :lol:

Baxter also left many connections in other stories such as 'Downstream' in his old anthology. It's all scattered so it'd be headache to gather all of them.

There's also connection to novel Titan and recurring characters from other stories.

Well, it's not guarantee that you will find better connection, but you can start reading every single Baxter novel to draw some 'threads', if you want.

As of currently, if current tier is worrying, then the page may need revision to 'Possibly Tier [?]'.

 

[Jibz]

All Phase Space being canon is worrying.

Some Phase Space not being canon is worrying.

So what is not 'worrying' then? :lol:

It's not that. It's more like... Baxter explicitly stated what was canonical to Manifold (albeit he didn't state everything else WASNT canon) in his foreword and that the first page of the bloody book kinda says "Stories from Manifold and Elsewhere", but you know potato tomato.

From my understanding, Level IV explanation itself probably is not treated as Mahlo Cardinal even.

So without specific mention of Inaccessible Cardinality, they probably be back to Low 1-A or smth.

Baseline Level IV multiverse is Low 1-A iirc.

Eh, i have no doubt in my mind there's mentioning of cardinality in Manifold, since its Baxter's magnum opus and an insanely strong hard sci fi story. Are their other supporters for this verse or have we reached a conclusion here.

 

[Threemagi]

It's not that. It's more like... Baxter explicitly stated what was canonical to Manifold (albeit he didn't state everything else WASNT canon) in his foreword and that the first page of the bloody book kinda says "Stories from Manifold and Elsewhere", but you know potato tomato.

That's fair concern.

There's nothing saying Dante Dreams is canon. But there is one offhand mention from Manifold book itself.

At least there isn't explicit statement which story is not canon.

Eh, i have no doubt in my mind there's mentioning of cardinality in Manifold, since its Baxter's magnum opus and an insanely strong hard sci fi story.

There isn't.

And I am not sure if Manifold is magnum opus. It could be Xeelee as it has more actual feats.

Are their other supporters for this verse or have we reached a conclusion here.

From my current knowledge, this is the conclusion. Idk any other quotes.

Other baxter supporters? Idk either.

 

[Jibz]

There isn't.

And I am not sure if Manifold is magnum opus. It could be Xeelee as it has more actual feats.

Manifold is imo. Baxter's whole writing is just insane worldbuilding with large sci fi elements which really shines in Manifold, alot more then in Xeelee series. As for cardinality, perhaps there isn't. Though i find that unlikely, it is a hard sci fi novel.

From my current knowledge, this is the conclusion. Idk any other quotes.

Other baxter supporters? Idk either.

I see. I myself dont really care so won't push this question because i dont wanna see the verse downgraded and cba to put in the insane effort to do so. Imma just say that flat out. If someone else does however want to downgrade it then they can be my guest because it is what it is ya know.

 

[Threemagi]

Manifold is imo. Baxter's whole writing is just insane worldbuilding with large sci fi elements which really shines in Manifold, alot more then in Xeelee series. As for cardinality, perhaps there isn't. Though i find that unlikely, it is a hard sci fi novel.

We could wait for new manifold book if Baxter planned any.

And hope he releases it fast enough before anybody notices the shaky ground Manifold now stands on. ovo

I see. I myself dont really care so won't push this question because i dont wanna see the verse downgraded and cba to put in the insane effort to do so. Imma just say that flat out. If someone else does however want to downgrade it then they can be my guest because it is what it is ya know.

That's fair.