Manifold : Possibly having Woodin Cardinals (Tier 0 Upgrade)

[Threemagi]

@Antvasima Okay, I've worked out including relevant scans (as suggested by Rikimarox2)

Edit : I forgot to mention the pages.

The Downstreamers

The Downstreamers, also known as The Old Ones after the collapse of their multiverse, are a hyper-posthuman civilization. Born in the "primal universe," they are the first and oldest race in Manifold, and are in fact the creators of said Manifolds and the descendants of humanity in a sense. They...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Goddess of The Manifold

The Goddess of The Manifold is a mysterious being from the Manifold Trilogy. Despite never appearing directly, she was believed to exist, and was first mentioned in Manifold: Origin in which she is posited to have been an expression of the manifold itself, or even literally the manifold. She was...

vsbattles.fandom.com

(I guess this thing too... I'll try to fit the justification)

The Old Ones' capability, which includes manipulation of mathematical rules which underlay all things, and they are capable of creating infinitely-layered multiverses that contain an equally infinite number of universes within each layer. They are one with the Manifold and possibly greater Baxter multiverse connected with Manifold, which when combined, make up a mathematical superspace encompassing all forms/variants of mathematics / formal systems identified with Woodin's constructible multiverse (Ultimate L) which includes Woodin cardinals. The Old Ones themselves have a near complete understanding of all of existence, allowing them to easily create "endless possibilities of life and mind."

I'll wait for someone to unlock the page. And then edit new stuff in. (I don't remember ever doing page editing tho, lol. So excuse for any tardiness.)

Of course, if someone else can do it, that'd be fine too.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please write a list of the EXACTLY WORDED titles for all of the pages that you need me to unlock, so my automated script can handle it.

 

[Threemagi]

@Antvasima

The Downstreamers
The Goddess of The Manifold

 

[Antvasima]

I mean, ehh... Suggsverse is wildly inconsistent cosmology-wise. It has regular universes using a literal copy-and-paste of both the Mathiverse's in-verse description and our justification of its rating, but then much higher levels are apparently much less impressive. The Metaverse, for example, only describes exceeding inaccessible cardinals, which very well can be lowballed to baseline tier 0. I believe there is an even higher level of the First Floor that directly references proper classes, too, but I'd have to look. Point is, accurately tiering Suggsverse is nigh-impossible, which is why no one on any battleboard site does it.

Hmm. Well, the way that I have understood Suggs mindset, he is motivated partially by trolling the battleboard community as a whole, and partially by that he has a mental hangup on the common fiction term "harnessing the power of stories", and tries to do so to try to empower himself, justify his delusions of grandeur, and remake all of reality in his own flawed, dysfunctional, and nightmarish image, largely by copy-pasting text segments describing mathematical and philosophical concepts that he does not truly understand, and then stating that he has transcended them and all of imagination combined by using nonsense terms that he has made up on his own. It is almost like a kid making a career out of screaming "mirror x infinity" at the playground.

Still, I am derailing a lot, and do not really have a hangup about Suggs anymore. He just reminds me of me back when my mental illness was in its worst state, so I used to find him annoying for that reason.

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

The Downstreamers
The Goddess of The Manifold

Okay. I will unlock them for you. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Agnaa]

So, just out of curiousity, are Woodin cardinals somewhere on a Suggsverse level? However, no derailments or other nonsense after this question please.

Suggsverse seems to try using every justification any battleboarder anywhere has used to argue that certain verses are strong, combining them regardless of how inherently nonsensical, outdated, or contradictory they are.

Woodin cardinals (and other similar mathematical objects) arrive from tinkering with mathematical definitions and axioms. While this is ultimately done for legitimate mathematical purposes, as Woodin cardinals do prove certain things in certain fields of mathematics, it happens to be an enormously large construct. So I'd say it's "not on a Suggsverse level" in how it was invented, defined, and used.

The issue with comparing them tiering-wise being, Woodin cardinals are very rigorously defined, while Suggsverse is very loosely defined and often contradictory. I find it hard to believe that Suggsverse would land higher without explicitly mentioning Woodin cardinals or taking various NLF statements above their minimum interpretations. Simply because you'd need to (by our standards) create so many chains of composite hierarchies that properly embed and transcend previous hierarchies, and I don't expect Suggs to have bothered writing that many with sufficient care.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Threemagi]

Okay. I will unlock them for you. Tell me here when you are done.

Okay thank you. I'm now done. You can lock them again.

I've only edited bare minimum. Let later revisions take care of the rest, haha (if there's any untidy bits)... Man, editing on phone is a pain

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are other members here willing to handle the remaining editing then?

 

[Elizhaa]

Or maybe Transduality still Type 3?
Beyond Dimensional Existence still Type 2?

Beyond Dimensional Existence would be Type 3. Transduality looks to be Type 4, based on the justifications: Old Ones Created and transcended an "ultimate reality" which contains the crux of all logical concepts; Manifoldverse encompasses all forms of mathematical/logic systems.

 

[KingPin0422]

Okay. Are other members here willing to handle the remaining editing then?

I can try to clean up the tier 0 justification for the Old Ones, but a proper complete rewrite of the pages will require more elaborate CRTs, I'm afraid.

The Old Ones are the creators of a mathematical superspace governed by subtle mathematical rules in which all logically possible universes as described by various formal systems exist, with Woodin cardinals included among its mathematical possibilities.

The God of the Manifold is a force which encompasses and comprehends an ultimate ensemble of universes, which is hinted to be comprised of an endless recursion of greater manifolds, with there being "no end to the hierarchies of life and mind". The lowest manifold, that of the Old Ones, already consists of all logically possible universes and internally consistent formal systems, including the existence of Woodin cardinals, with mathematics as the fundamental, underlying basis which defines the whole structure.

^ How do these look?

 

[Elizhaa]

The suggestions seem fine.

 

[KingPin0422]

Alright, I applied them. They should be fine, but even if they aren't, Ant can just rollback the edits if he wants.

Now, while I'm pretty happy with how this revision turned out, I still think the pages (all three of them) are pretty bad. A verse-wide revision seems necessary, and I think Ultima and I can handle it, alongside anyone else who would be interested. It's only four novels and several short stories long, but someone up there said that all of Baxter's works are unified in a single setting. If that's true, then we may have even more work to do. Oh, well.

 

[Threemagi]

Sorry, I just found out that my images got compressed to unreadble things. So, I changed them all to GDrive. Fortunately, Pages are unlocked rn so I can edit them in. The readable scans.

Aand finished.
Edit : Aaand now I switch them to be hosted on wiki. (It seems you can't open them if you are not logged in, tho?)

It's only four novels and several short stories long,

... You guys are made of some stern stuff lmao.

Anyway, I think I can help, if you want. Maybe if you need scans or something.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that KingPin042 suggested writing an explanation blog for this series via a wiki message wall discussion. Would the rest of you find this acceptable?

Also, should I lock the relevant pages now?

 

[Threemagi]

I think that KingPin042 suggested writing an explanation blog for this series via a wiki message wall discussion. Would the rest of you find this acceptable?

I have no problem with it.

Also, should I lock the relevant pages now?

Sure.

 

[Elizhaa]

I think that KingPin042 suggested writing an explanation blog for this series via a wiki message wall discussion. Would the rest of you find this acceptable?

Also, should I lock the relevant pages now?

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.

What about this thread? Should it be locked as well?

 

[Threemagi]

What about this thread? Should it be locked as well?

Well, I have nothing further to add. (Dunno about others, but I got the impression they are all finished here.)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will wait for some more input to be on the safe side.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am fine with the thread being locked.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then.