Manifold Re-Evaluation or Adding explanation to their page

[Threemagi]

Manifold Tier 0 ness is because of Woodin Cardinal and Level IV Multiverse.

But Woodin Cardinal can be called into question here as it belongs to different work. However, it can possibly connect to Manifold after all?
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▪A Journey to Amasia and Proxima/Ultima Connection

Dante Dreams is included in Phase Space. Part of Manifold Series. Some kind of spin off.

Both Dante Dreams and A Journey to Amasia has Officer Philmus as recurring character.

They passed into a layer of darkness, like a storm cloud.

The hemispheres of the 3-sphere – the Earth and its nested spheres, the globes of the angels – faded like stars at dawn. But Himmelfarb's eyes glowed brightly.

And then, space folded away.

Philmus could still see Boyle, Himmelfarb, the priest's shining eyes. But she couldn't tell how near or far the others were. And when she tried to look away from them, her eyes slid over an elusive darkness, deeper than the darkness inside her own skull.

There was no structure beyond the three of them, their relative positions. She felt as small as an electron, as huge as a galaxy. She felt lost.
She clung to Himmelfarb's hand. 'Where are we? How far –'

'We are outside the Primum Mobile: beyond duration, beyond the structure of space. Dante understood this place. "There near and far neither add nor subtract …"

An expression of the axioms of set theory. Officer Philmus, this is a kind of mathematical superspace, which may, or may not, be an expression of all the variants of mathematics that can logically exist.

Now, Amasia and Dante Dreams are on same 'verse'.

But Amasia is ALSO from Proxima/Ultima.

▪Manifold Connection

But how would Manifold connect to this? I had assumed since Phase Space is part of Manifold series, all of its stories are inside Manifold.

So, Amasia and in extension Proxima would be fitted in Manifold too.

But it seems its not clear cut as that. So maybe we need one more connection here.

Here, Dante is mentioned in Manifold Space :
Manifold Space Chapter 2 Baikonur Page 43

“Of course.” The first thinker to have expressed something like the modern notion of a plurality of worlds — planets orbiting Suns, many of them inhabited by beings more or less like humans. Earlier thinkers about other worlds had imagined parallel versions of a Dante’s Inferno pocket universe, centered on a stationary Earth. “You have to imagine other worlds before you can conceive of traveling there.”

Full page :

You can argue it's just thought experiment and not guarantee Dante's Inferno existence.
But well, personally, I'd like to believe it as author implication of it being real since Level IV Multiverse supposedly contain many things. Maybe Dante's Inferno too.

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▪Finite ness of Proxima

Even if Proxima~Manifold connection is accepted, there's worry On the topic of finiteness of Proxima. Finite statement that can directly threaten Woodin Cardinal statement.

It itself is contradicted by infinite statement in Proxima itself.

Its a suspicion wether its infinite or not.

some scholars have always believed that nature does not contain infinities. Infinities are just a useful mathematical toy invented by humans, with no correspondence to reality. Unlike the number three , say, which maps on to collections of three objects: three people, three potatoes …'

Stef said, 'Infinities can make sensible questions meaningless. Titus, start with the number one.'

'I think I can grasp that.'

'Add another one.'

'I have two.'

'Subtract one.'

'I have one again.'

'Add one.''Two.'

'Subtract one.'

'One!'

'Add one!'

'Two!'

'Subtract one!'

'One!'

She held up her hands. 'OK, that's enough. You get the idea. Now if I asked you to stop doing that after some finite number of steps – twelve or twenty-three or five hundred and seventy-eight – what answer would you get?'

'That's easy. Either two or one.'

'Definitely one or the other?'

'Of course.'

'But if I asked you to go on for ever , what answer would you end up with?'

'I – ah … Oh.'

'You see?' Stef said. 'The answer can't be determined. The question becomes absurd, once you bring infinity into it.'

Titus said, 'I can feel my brain boiling like the water in that pot.'

'Physics – my philosophy – is about asking sensible questions and expecting sensible answers. About being able to predict the future from the past. When you bring in infinities, sensible questions have dumb answers. The whole system breaks down.'

The ColU said, 'So the point is, the multiverse – the collection of the universes universes we visit – must be finite. Because nature won't allow infinities.'

Mardina scowled. 'Well, so what? What do I care if there is one reality, or ten or twenty or a million?'

Stef said, gently but persistently, 'It matters because a finite multiverse has an edge . And if one of the member universes should encounter that edge …' She looked into the pot of water, and pointed out one largish bubble slowly migrating from the boiling centre towards the side of the clay pot.

'Watch.' When the bubble reached the edge, it popped, vanishing as if it had never existed.

The ColU said, 'Given that one simple fact – that the multiverse must be finite – and knowing how old the universe is, or was in the age we came from – it has always been possible to make an estimate of how long the universe was going to last. How long it was likely to be before we hit the multiverse wall. Probabilistic only, but …'

For 'infinity quote', well, there's this :

'Look, we all know from personal experience that other universes exist, with histories more or less similar to this one – or to the one into which each of us was born. And in my culture our philosophers had predicted the existence of those universes. Our laws of nature were well founded, you see, but they did not prescribe how the universe had to be.

Many universes were possible – an infinite number. It is just as our science would have predicted the six-fold symmetry of a snowflake, which comes from the underlying geometry of ice crystals, but within that six-fold rule set many individual snowflakes are possible, all different from each other.'

'Universes as numerous as snowflakes,'

Beth said. 'That's wonderful. Scary.'

Stef said, 'But what are these universes? Where are they? You know that the science of my culture was more advanced than in any other we've yet encountered—'

The ColU said, 'And Earthshine would say that was because we had been the least deflected into efforts to build Hatches for his Dreamers.'

'We did have some models of the multiverse – I mean, of a super-universe that is a collection of universes. After centuries of study we never came to a definitive answer. We probably never got far out enough into our own universe to be able to map the truth.

'Still, we believed our universe had expanded from a single point, out of a Big Bang. Expanded, cooled, awash with light at first, atoms and stars and planets and people condensing out later. But our universe was like a single bubble in a bowl of boiling water, like a pot we put on the fire.' She gestured at the clay pot, within which water was languidly bubbling. 'You see? There is a substrate, something like the water in the pot. And out of that heated-up substrate emerges, not just one bubble, but a whole swarm of them, expanding, popping … They are the other universes we've been visiting.

'And what's inside those universes is going to be different, one universe to the next – a little or a lot. Some could differ wildly from the others, not just in historical details. Suppose gravity were stronger – I mean, the force that gives us weight. Then stars would be smaller, and would burn out more quickly. Everything would be different. And if gravity were weaker there might be no stars at all. Of course some universes are going to be more similar than others.'

It seemed to be Chu who understood most readily. Not for the first time Beth wondered what kind of scholar he might have become, given the chance.

'All the universes we have seen are similar. They all have planets, suns, people. They even have the same people, up to a point.'

'Yes,' Stef said eagerly. 'You've got it. When you think about it the differences are pretty small. I mean, whether Rome falls or not would be a big deal for us—' and she smiled as Titus scowled ferociously '—but from Per Ardua, say, you wouldn't even notice it.'

The ColU said, 'We believe that the Dreamers can somehow reach out to other universes that are – nearby . There is no good term for it. What is nearness in a multiverse? Beginning in one universe, they reach out into another that is similar, yet which contains a human culture that is more – conducive – to Hatch-building. And we, our small lives, are swept along in the process.'

And the other infinite quote is from Journey to Amasia, Woodin Cardinal infinite hierarchy thing.

So, 2 infinite vs 1 finite statement.

Conclusion : Basically conflicting statements within the verse itself. Outlier or not outlier case, maybe.

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▪Proposal

1. Let people re-evaluate it. If some want downgrade or smth. And if it does need downgrade, let's discuss how should we do it.

2. If this connection is accepted and Downstreamers can keep their Woodin Cardinal justification, maybe we need to add this connection to their page somehow. Just for clarity.
Adding Manifold Space Chapter 2 explanation for additional connection.
Maybe link it to this thread?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

@Elizhaa has the Proxima and World Engine Destroyer books and he could not find any quote mentioning "be finite" on it, so I question the validity of the quote's existence. And wasn't the whole point of the Old Ones them turning the universe into an infinite multiverse? I don't see how it would be a contradiction.

 

[Jibz]

Already adressed most of this in the downgrade crt, but for the “proxima finite, ye or nay”. The scans arent contradictory. They’re out of order. The infinity quote is early in the book and is recorrected far later into the book.

Now whilst manifold doesnt scale to the woodin feat. Someone has to, but thats a discussion for another day. Since Magi’s inactive i wont get a response, but i saw this and thought i might aswell respond to it so it doesnt bite me in the ass later.

@Elizhaa has the Proxima and World Engine Destroyer books and he could not find any quote mentioning "be finite" on it, so I question the validity of the quote's existence.

It does indeed exist.