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Weiss vs Garou (Two white haired teens fight one another)

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FireSwordHero said:
Actually, you know what, I'm going to debunk the whole idea Weekly has that Weiss can somehow spam ranged attacks long enough to get the win. Im sorry but all these small disjoined replies are pissing me off so im going to one massive **** off post as to why Weiss can't outrange this fight.

First of all, the Summons
  • Weiss requires a considerable amount of time summon any creature in her arsenal, which is the reason why she created a ice barrier in her fight against Vernal, so that she could have time to summon the knight. Assuming SBA, Weiss would not be able to immediately attack Garou with them due to said cast time.
    • Also she can only make one Summon at a time, so she can't try and make more
  • The Summons themselves are mostly melee based so they'd have to be near Garou to damage him. They are capable of being teleported by Weiss once fully summoned, but Garou can probably work around them especially since Weiss usually has them at a large size, which the more acrobatic Hero Hunter can probably work around.
  • Finally, though the Summons do upscale from Weiss herself, Garou can still just defeat them personally. They are not indestructible as seen in Weiss fight against Vernal, and given that they take time to Summon, Weiss can't rely on them forever. Don't forget that Garou's speed and power would likely increase over the course of the fight, so not only would Weiss probably have less time to make more Summons, these Summons would become progressively weaker as well fighting the Hero Hunter
  • Also Creating Summons takes up some of Weiss's Aura, and even with Aura restoration items, Weiss will probably run out of Aura before Garou will be overwhelmed by Weiss's summons.
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No one has brought up summons at any point in this thread. Why youre acting like this is a debunk is beyond my comprehension. On top of this, almost all of your points are completely wrong, in this key and beyond Weiss is able to instantly summon her summons and maintain them with minimal concentration.
FireSwordHero said:
Secondly, the Glyphs.
  • The are NOT instantaneous, there are multiple scenes where they do take a split second to appear, which sure is pretty fast, but against someone who can instinctively dodge attacks or anaylze their foes attacks to better anticipate them? Its not even a contest.
  • Weiss primarily uses them for either Gravity traps, hopping around on them like platforms or creating Ice attacks, the last of which does require some time to cast the ice.
Finally, the Flash Freeze technique that Weekly claims is the instant win, as well as Weiss Weapon

Ok, so Weekly claims that the reason Weiss would win was the moment where she created two giant glyphs on the Griffon-Like Grimm, causing the wings to be frozen from the inside out and causing them to shatter. However, there are a lot of issues with this scene, or why it would not be a usable wincon.
  • Weiss did this to a Grimm monster with a giant wingspan, and generally any Glyph's Weiss creates on a surface have to be big enough support a diameter of more than one meter. Garou has the size of a normal human, so Weiss can't reliably create on Garou.
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Incorrect, multiple times throughout volumes 4 and 5 Weiss was shown to be able to create Glyphs small enough to fit in the palm of her hand
FireSwordHero said:
  • This is of course, assuming that Garou would even stand still long enough for Weiss to put one on him. As Garou is a melee fighter he would most likely be on the move and not allowing Weiss the time to concentrate and form a Glyph on him
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He doesnt need to stand still, Weiss' glyphs are applied via thought, she doesnt need to land anything on him in order to apply a glyph on him
FireSwordHero said:
  • It was done only one single time in the entire series and the only time in which Weiss Ice flash freezes someone, much less freeze them internally. Generally when Weiss uses Ice attacks, they are generally create as a means of making solid constructs or as solid projectiles, and generally don't carry the same property of flash Freezing like it did in that scene Weekly keeps mentioning.
    • Even if we assumed this was a normal thing Weiss can do, Weiss would not use the attack in character, or at least not immediately. She has only ever been shown doing the feat against a Grimm Monster, and its unlikely Weiss would use this technique on a human being, much less to kill someone with it. If she did, then the Lucky dude wouldn't have been the only Ace Ops member dead during their fight against RWBY.
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And as i also keep mentioning, and which you keep ignoring, Weiss has only done so because it doesnt work on people with Aura.

FireSwordHero said:
  • Even if we assumed that Weiss would use it, aside from the fact that she couldn't reliably create one on Garou, the ice glyphs do take a a second to activate their effect even once created, and assuming Garou would be stupid enough to touch one, it wouldn't freeze him fast enough for him to be killed, so he could just jump off or away from it once he realises whats going on.
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They do not take a second to activate, the properties are canonically activated instantaneously.
FireSwordHero said:
On that not about the feat, Weekly also claims if Garou was to grab Weiss Weapon, he would instantly be frozen due to Weiss Ice Dust based on the above feat, which is objectively false on so many levels.
  • Weiss CAN create ice without needing to create a glyph, but its generally done by stabbing the weapon into the ground and creating a sheet of ice from the point of the blade, implying that the ice is released through some sort of mechanism rather than through her semblance.
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My guy, Weiss quite literally has an ability that freezes people when they touch her sword.
FireSwordHero said:
  • If Weiss weapon was capable of freezing him on contact like Weekly claims, then Weiss would have been able to finish most of her fights with a few strikes by destroying either freezing her opponent or her opponents weapons, which further demonstrates the flash freezing feat as an outlier.
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You reall do seem to like ignoring the main mechanic of RWBY in that Aura prevents that from happening.
FireSwordHero said:
  • Finally, this idea is done one the assumption that Garou would just grab the weapon from the blade, rather than by its handle or just by grabbing Weiss arm and disabling her from there. Whether Weiss can keep Garou at a distance is debatable, but once Garou gets into Melee range, nothing could stop him from taking Weiss weapon away as a form of handicapping her due to having superior LS to her, depriving her of both her weapon and the Dust she needs to use her Ice attacks. Not to mention he is really just more skilled than Weiss due to the amount of confirmed fighters and martial arts masters he scales to skillwise, so even if he didnt grab her weapon, skill wise he would be leaving her in the dust with both his martial arts skills, instinctive reactions, ability to analyze and identify an opponents weakpoints and his ability to disorient Weiss with afterimages.
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Ignoring the entire skill chain for RWBY, very nice. Its agreed that Weiss andGarou are on th esame level of skill as each other.
FireSwordHero said:
I think that the idea that Weiss could keep him at a distance is done on a lot of assumptions, mainly by seeing the stats page for Weiss and not factoring fighting styles, physical capabilities or the limitations of any characters abilities, while the idea that Weiss flash freezes Garou is based on a feat that really does feel like an outlier, and based on a strategy that is full of limitations once things are thought through, and is too OOC for Weiss to use. I'm sorry if I sound spiteful, but aside from the fact that I hate these nonstop short replies, I feel like I should give a clear and concise reason on why I don't think Weiss wins this, even with her supposed advantages.

Anyways, you already know my vote, so I will be leaving it at that.
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Your reasonings are factually incorrect. Learn the verse's mechanics before arguing like you know them.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Hey, resident RWBY watcher here.
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Starting off with a lie, good.
Kingofwolves999 said:
Weiss, with no knowledge, is gonna either go in for sword attacks using glyphs to propel herself, summon her knight, use an elemental attack from her sword or use glyphs to send ice projectiles at Garou.
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This is volume 5-6 Weiss, not Volume 1 Weiss. She is a primary range spammer in this key.
Kingofwolves999 said:
She does not begin with gravity dust, or freezing, or camping out, if her opponent has given her no indication to do those. She rarely EVER does those things outside of 1 or 2 instances over YEARS. None of her ice attacks induce freezing outside of that instance with the Sphinx, and she’s more likely to use different dust elements like fire and wind before attempting to freeze someone that is dodging her attacks.
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Gravity is quite literally her main ability wtf are you talking about.
Kingofwolves999 said:
Garou beats the **** out of her 10/10 times in any scenario where she tries to fight him like she usually does. Projectile spam and summoning are the only things that prolong her defeat, but Garou adapting and skill gap = gg.
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Ignoring thattheyre agreed to be equal in skill, cool
 
Scottycj256 said:
A range spammer that isn't even a range spammer against normal humans going up against an actual range spammer that can switch to CQC on a ******* dime and still dominate:
Click to expand...
Which one is which in this? Weiss is equal parts range spam and CQC and regularly switches between them at a moment's notice in combat.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Not anymore h doesnt
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I mean, tbh this just seems like a case of "I think I'm right" vs "I think I'm right" when it comes to Weiss' abilities.

However, I have still only seen one actual instance of her freezing something, and it was a giant monster thing. She also conveniently did not freeze the entire thing.

WeeklyBattles said:
She hasnt because her internal freezing doesnt work on opponents that have Aura
Click to expand...
I'd also like to mention that if she has never fought a human like this, then there is no reason I think you can just assume she will start against Garou like that.

WeeklyBattles said:
Ignoring the entire skill chain for RWBY, very nice. Its agreed that Weiss andGarou are on th esame level of skill as each other.
Click to expand...
Even if we go with the assumption that they are equal in skill (which I did make earlier in this thread for simplicity of argument), she does not have the analytical prediction or information analysis to keep up with Garou.

Skill alone isn't going to stop Garou from just predicting her movements in close range and countering them with attacks that immediately incapacitate her. This isn't even via pressure points, it's via AP from a scaling chain that is incredibly massive already by this point in the OPM series. Above a value over 2x what Weiss scales to.

Her attacks in close range will also being reflected back at her with 2x the potency (if she even manages to attack before being killed).

-

My main issue is that I have not seen enough proof of her using, let alone starting with any of the abilities that will actually make a difference for her in this fight. And I've heard a lot of conflicting views. Majority here seem to say she starts with CQC, which is death.

Maybe if you could link to some full fights she has in this key, it could convince me?
 
Okay, I just watched this video about all of Weiss's fights

I don't think there was ever a time she started by freezing something/someone.

Not to mention, her whole fighting style revolves around CQC with her sword, and spamming projectiles.

Her starting moves are almost always sword fighting, shooting a barrage of projectiles, summoning ice beings, or creating ice.

Sword fighting gets her killed immediately.

Projectiles get reflected by WSRSF.

Ice beings can be destroyed, and probably won't even play much of a factor here in the first place.

The vast majority of the ice she creates are either projectiles or just walls of ice that head toward an opponent (isn't instantaneous)
 
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Already unfollowed, but since I keep getting replies I just want to say that its hilarious seeing Weekly inhale the copium like his life depends on it. The evidence he for any of his claims presented were mid and his counterpoints are wack "um sorry your arguements are wrong because I said so, so that means my arguements are right". Keep inhaling buddy I'll see you on the next rwby matchup.
 
Still have yet to see scans for this tbh
(Not for Garou, the other guy)
Can that guy predict 12 different potential attacks, analyze people down to their muscle twitches, and fight instinctively with other martial artists whole simultaneously hitting every pressure point?
Click to expand...
 
WeeklyBattles said:
(yes semblances are also skill-based).
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Are they? Ren and Jaune's were unlocked due to stress, Ren from his village being attacked and destroyed and Jaune with Wiess being near death. Nora randomly just found out she had one when she was striked by lightning. We know ruby got her's while training and mercury more than likely got his the same way but it doesnt seem to be completely based on combat skill.
 
Knifeman29 said:
Are they? Ren and Jaune's were unlocked due to stress, Ren from his village being attacked and destroyed and Jaune with Wiess being near death. Nora randomly just found out she had one when she was striked by lightning. We know ruby got her's while training and mercury more than likely got his the same way but it doesnt seem to be completely based on combat skill.
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I mean learning how to use a semblance is skill basied, also a gide book says this and it's supported by the writers as a guide for people who join to work on the show
 
TheGatememer said:
Weekly says there are, so I’m going to wait for said scans
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To be fair most of this stuff comes from light novels and the guide book that the writers gave the other writers to learn about rwby better (aka the writers helped with it and even use it for new people working on the series) as well as the main series
 
Spinoirr said:
To be fair most of this stuff comes from light novels and the guide book that the writers gave the other writers to learn about rwby better (aka the writers helped with it and even use it for new people working on the series) as well as the main series
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Right. So I’m asking for those scans
 
Weiss' experience is in fact backed up by actual skill feats.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm gonna just say this outright, this RWBY skill feats looks inflated as all hell and is ignoring some context.

At the bottom of the skill chain is aura users as a whole. While every living being in RWBY technically has Aura, actually being able to utilize it for things such as defense, regen, and senses requires years of training and a high enough degree of martial skill (and yes you actually need martial skill for it) that only a small percentage of the population of the entire planet ever become skilled enough to utilize their aura. Of that small percentage, an even smaller percentage ever become skilled enough to manifest/control a Semblance (yes semblances are also skill-based). To reach this small percentage comes to the second half of the bottom of the chain: Almost every character worth their salt in RWBY has spent their entire life training in combat and can fight hordes of Grimm with little issue (Almost because Jaune exists). The entirety of the main cast of RWBY was initially enrolled at Beacon Academy, one of the most prestigious combat schools in the world, with almost everyone who was accepted there having been trained for almost their entire life to fight monsters, and each one that was not professionally trained requiring a skill display overseen by Ozpin, who has the composite skill of several thousand professional huntsmen that he accumulated over his immortal lifetime. Thats the baseline for skill in the verse.
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Aura being used by a small percentage is not remotely an indication of skill, especially when Jaune had his Aura unlocked by someone else when he barely knew how to fight. So this whole "you need training for Aura" isn't a thing, by this logic this is the equivalent of saying Dragon Ball characters on Earth are skilled fighters just because they can use ki to fly and shoot energy blasts, that's just them understanding their own energy, not a skill feat. Also manifesting a Semblance is not a skill feat, it's literally done by any random situation that calls for the user to unlock it (6:30), no skill. Also fighting Grimm is not impressive for the fact they're not only fodder as hell to the point of never winning any fights on their own, but they're the RWBY equivalent of wild animals. Yeah this also is overblown with how “skilled” these warriors are when characters like Cardin Winchester and his gang got slapped around by RWBY’s equivalent to a bear, and their only noteworthy feat is slapping Jaune around, who’s bad at fighting in this point in time. Not impressive if you ask me in terms of skill.

Before the Beacon Arc Ruby had been personally trained by her uncle Qrow in combat and as a result she was noted as always excelling above her peers in combat training. At the start of the series Ruby was at a level of skill that even though she was two years away from being eligible to join Beacon she was admitted due her combat prowess impressing Ozpin, with him noting that she was already a master at wielding one of the most dangerous weapons ever designed. In combat Ruby is capable of taking on entire hordes of Grimm on her own and walking away without a scratch and utilizing the different functionalities of the Crescent Rose, such as the massive recoil from the rifle aspect of the weapon and the weapon's transformative capabilities, in tandem with each other and her Semblance in order to maintain an edge over her opponent. Basically every named character is around this level of skill in the early seasons. Now for Velvet. Velvet is able to perfectly and instantly mimic the exact moves that she observes other people use in combat as well as utilize multiple different fighting styles simultaneously, both armed and unarmed. Thanks to Anesidora, Velvet is also able to copy fighting styles that utilize weapons, and she is able to wield the weapons that she copies just as effectively as their original user. To date that we know of, Velvet is able to simultaneously utilize the fighting styles and weapons of Ruby Rose, Yang Xiao Long, Weiss Schnee, Blake Belladonna, Nora Valkyrie, Sun Wukong, Penny Polendina, Coco Adel, Peter Port, Reese Chloris, Fox Alistar, Vega Bleu, Yatsuhashi Daichi, Russel Thrush, Roy Stallion, Neptune Vasilias, Brawnz Ni, Bartholomew Oobleck, Flynt Coal, Edward Caspian, and Scarlet David. Of note, every person listed spent their entire lives training in combat and several of them are professional huntsmen with decades of combat experience.
Click to expand...

Ruby was mostly brought into Beacon early because of her silver eyes, Qrow himself made that clear at the end of Volume 3 to her, her silver eyes was what caught Ozpin’s attention, not really her combat prowess, if it was the latter then he wouldn’t have lectured her about her hand to hand fighting being abysmal. Fighting Grimm is not impressive as they lack any feats beyond being wild animals and get jobbed every scene they’re in. Yeah uhh, Velvet being able to copy everyone’s abilities and weapons is her semblance doing the work, that’s not her doing any skill feat it’s just a nature of her power, plus Weiss and team RWBY never remotely fought Velvet and outskilled her, so this is a nothing burger for Weiss to begin with.

Moving up the chain we have Nebula Violette, who not only outmatched Velvet in a 1v1 test of martial arts skill, but was directly stated to be more skilled than Velvet in combat despite Velvet mixing numerous fighting styles to try to throw her off in their fight. Above her is Pyrrha Nikos, the skill god of the Beacon Arc. Pyrrha is one of the most skilled students at Beacon Academy, having won every combat tournament she has entered since she was a pre-teen due to both her mastery of combat and mastery of her semblance, being able to apply it in combat completely undetected and having done so in almost every fight she's been in for over a decade, doing so with such skill and precision that she has lead many to believe she is untouchable and invincible as no one has been able to even land a blow on her in her combat career. Even without her semblance she has shown the ability to quickly and easily adapt to her combat situation and analyze her opponents while fighting and changing tactics to suit the situation she is in. She has shown extreme accuracy, being able to hit moving targets from hundreds of meters away and strike vital weak points on an opponent mid-combat both with and without the aid of her semblance. She is also highly skilled at using her weapon's multiple forms in combat, being able to switch between forms several times in rapid succession to both deliver rapid attacks and counter others simultaneously.
Click to expand...

So you're using a character who's main feat stems from a novel that takes place after Volume 6 for Velvet to somehow cross scale to team RWBY? And what did you say again about the OPM side using feats for Garou much later down the series that he'd "have no right scaling to"? Because this is peak hypocrisy here as no one in team RWBY is remotely stated to be on par with Velvet or Nebula at this point in time. Pyrrha's main reason for winning was because of her semblance to control metallic objects, even the directors comment on this being a main factor for her winning since no one knows what her semblance is. Also again, how is this relevant to team RWBY, or Weiss to be specific, because they've never fought her at all, let alone outskilled her.

Then theres Mercury. Mercury is a veritable master of close combat, having spent his entire life training in pure martial combat to make up for his Semblance being stolen by his father. He is shown to be a very acrobatic and agile fighter who relies upon quickly overpowering his opponent with complex kicks that imply a near-mastery of martial arts that resemble Tae-Kwon-Do. He is also capable of a break-dancing style, similar to Capoeira, and makes use of Muay Thai as well. Despite his focus on kicks, Mercury also uses his hands to grapple, block or redirect enemy attacks. His experience and skill are aggressive and effective enough to drive even fighters of a high caliber, like Pyrrha, into a defensive position, with Word of God confirming that Mercury would defeat her if he fought her seriously. Due to his fighting style, Mercury relies on his swift and quick reflexes to counter and block his opponent's attacks as first demonstrated during his fight with Yang Xiao Long, altering the course of her punches and using his footwork to raise her fists and kick underneath or around her attacks. Despite the presumed awkwardness of his weapon's ranged capabilities he is a skilled marksman, able to shoot a phone out of a person's hand from a good distance away, and is proficient at using the many different forms of projectiles at his disposal to keep his opponents off balance. Mercury is also known to be observant, tactical, and analytical, able to notice and deduce the capabilities and limits of Pyrrha's Polarity Semblance after she uses it once during their brief fight, despite Pyrrha using it extremely subtly in combat and having spent her entire life
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How does Mercury being confirmed to defeat Pyrrha automatically means he outskills her? That just means if he was actually trying he'd end up beating her, which sounds more like a strength feat than a skill feat. Plus again, Weiss never fought Mercury so this means nothing for her in this fight. Plus when actually looking through Weiss herself as a fighter, she falls apart the moment she loses her weapon, she's shown to be easily distracted in the middle of a fight, and this is against wild animals, not experienced fighters, and in volume 5 she leaves herself wide open to getting blasted by her enemies twice. The RWBY skill, especially for Weiss of all characters is to put it blunt, bullshit and overinflated to an extreme degree as context is missing for a lot of this, or they don't even scale to team RWBY as they've never reached that level of skill.

@TheGatememer You're honestly better off finding the scans yourself if you're asking Weekly for scans since his track record of proving his point isn't good. Plus I can guarantee you, there's some Fire Emblem characters more skilled than a good chunk of RWBY characters.
 
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Skill isnt a universal term. "You need great skills to use Aura" isn't the same thing as "You need great hand to hand combat skills to use Aura"
Yeah, Garou FRA. He just outskills that bitch
 
Tmw when the characters are way more skilled in my crossover au via scaling in skill to a AU version of Goku who tried his whole life in martial arts to the point he is naive to almost anything outside of fighting
 
Unironicly Weiss, despite never been shown knowing how to duel wield or shoot a gun still did it with Blake's weapon during the vol 8 finally
 
Spinoirr said:
I mean not like it matters as this is a stomp
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Spinnoir stop being a prick. You kept changing the matchup multiple times once people started voting for Garou and then you have the audacity to declare the matchup a stomp so that it wouldn't be added to the profiles. At this point you might as well just unequalize speed since you are determined by any means to give Weiss the win, but you have already spent a lot of the goodwill of the people on this thread.

Also to refute your statment, no this isnt a stomp. While there is a notable AP gap, each character has their own skills and brings their own advantages to the fight that the other lacks. Weiss brings surivability thanks to Aura and healing items, a more effective combat range thanks to glyphs and summons (though not to the absurd degree Weekly claims that suggests she can just outrange him permanently), and unique abilities such as time dilation and elemental dust types. Garou on the other hand has comparable or superior melee skills, superior physical capabilities with acrobatics, instinctive reactions and analytical predictions, and a notable AP difference, not enough to one shot but enough that it makes a difference. Weiss has her advantages to give her a win a few times, but more times than not Garou takes this due to one thing or another, so it isn't quantifiable to be a stomp.

EDIT: @Recon1511 did just mention the High-7C upgrade so this match is TECHNICALLY pointless now, but my points still stand prior. Stop being a prick and changing the matchup so late into a fight because you don't want your favorite character to lose or you have a bias.
 
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