We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

601 Comment, new page bois.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't understand how any of that is a justification for including a requirement that's already met by every single relevant creation feat (including non-UES creation feats).

How can you not see that this is pointless? It rules out nothing.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't understand how any of that is a justification for including a requirement that's already met by every single relevant creation feat (including non-UES creation feats).

How can you not see that this is pointless? It rules out nothing.

I still don't see how we'd benefit from removing the core aspects of a UES from its requirement list.

 

[Agnaa]

Requirements are only useful if they disqualify some things. Since it disqualifies nothing, it shouldn't be included.

That's why you don't include requirements such as "Feats done with a UES need to be associated with calculated, stated, or derived energy values".

If you have 5 requirements, and a series needs to meet 2 to qualify, and 1 of them is met by every single series, then in actuality, a series only needs to meet 1 of 4 requirements to qualify.

 

[KLOL506]

Requirements are only useful if they disqualify some things. Since it disqualifies nothing, it shouldn't be included.

That's why you don't include requirements such as "Feats done with a UES need to be associated with calculated, stated, or derived energy values".

If you have 5 requirements, and a series needs to meet 2 to qualify, and 1 of them is met by every single series, then in actuality, a series only needs to meet 1 of 4 requirements to qualify.

Cool then, 3-4 requirements:

Qualifying Criteria 2: Usage of a singular energy source for all related feats

Qualifying Criteria 5: Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse for the characters to replicate their feats with

Possible Qualifying Criteria 6: Energy source must serve as a core underpinning to the verse's lore and its metaphysical/natural elements and aspects

Criteria 7 (Final location unknown): Creation feats in particular need to be shown to be equally-or-less-taxing than normal base attacks, one way of proving this is to see with how much effort the Creation Feat was done, another way to see this is to check if they were holding back on their power or focusing their blasts for precision or for damage control in cases of their casual attacks causing damage over a small area (You're welcome to add any other piece of evidence we can use to qualify it for scaling, but me personally I'm not sure whether this is better suited for the Creation Feats Page or the UES page, or we could put it in both or we could just put it in the Creation Feats Page and then link to the UES guidelines separately)

3 recommendations-

Criteria 1: Empowering themselves by directly channeling their powers through physical objects and amplifying their statistics (Already a default, works even better if they can amplify stuff outside of their bodies, like weapons cough DMC2 Dante cough, machinery, etc.)

Criteria 3: Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal system and outright power or potential capabilities (As in, statements or thorough indications that show that the UES is what is especially used to perform such feats, even though a UES would do this by default, though there are some cases where it can be pretty hard to discern where it involves tapping into a technological powerhouse that powers up several high-tech weapon using the same energy and sharing the same properties, if the energy source itself is not named anywhere in the series and the characteristics and properties of said weapons are all we have to go by)

Criteria 4 (Removal of the power-source which shows dramatic loss of power or life-force to the point of being weaker than a normal human and also suffering from extreme exhaustion, pain or even death) (This should at least be helpful to at least prove that a UES is at play to begin with even if you don't want to use it for the whole "Their strongest feat is a creation feat" as part of evidence, like DMC1 novel nexuses draining Dante to the point where he can barely get up or DMC2 novel Beastheads sapping away Dante's powers to the point where he's reduced to being weaker than an old man, or Kakashi wiping himself out to stop a pin from Pain with his Mangekyo, or Asura's Wrath's exhaustion-of-mantra-leading-to-death scenario, etc.)

And then there's the Ineligible criteria which nukes chances of scaling, that being-

Ineligible Criteria 1. Reliance upon external abilities to access different abilities like-
*Weapons that massively amp your attack potency but without it you're as weak as a human
*Characters being wholly mundane without items which would make it a feat for the items and not the wielders themselves
*(Possibly) Totems being used to grant users assorted magical powers (Assuming they don't qualify for the above rules and if each totem is reserved for each specific ability, then you can't cross-scale the different elemental totems to have similar AP without power-scaling)

Ineligible Criteria 2 is bunk due to relying on "environmental attacks would just be ED" which would defeat the purpose of a UES being there to scale the energy of the environmental attacks to the UES, buuuuuuuuuuut like I said, that on its own currently has its own CRT (Specifically clouds) for reasons different than UES so...

Ineligible Criteria 3. Attacks being "outliers" for a character's physical statistics can be used as evidence against it qualifying- Obviously if the feat isn't consistent with the story's theme or lore and is a one-off feat that nobody cares about and is done by someone of insignificant worth you can use this to kick the feat out altogether (Though the outlier page already kinda makes this redundant)

Ineligible Criteria 4. Characters losing their energy source and still being capable of replicating the same feats- Good old power-scaling here, much like the Zelda situation

EDIT: Ineligible Criteria 5 removed due to non-UES energy stuff requiring the same criteria as UES in order to qualify for scaling to physicals. This will prolly be covered by a different criteria that tackles the power-scaling aspect.

 

[Agnaa]

Why is ineligible criteria 5 one that nukes chances of scaling? It says it can't be used to cross-scale and can only be scaled to individual users, but that should be the case for universal energy systems in the first place.

The big bad boss who uses magic to casually create a universe shouldn't scale to the first fodder enemy's fireball. Characters would have to scale to the character with the creation feat.

So what does that criteria stop from occurring, and why?

I also should say that I'm okay with criteria 4, and I think it's actually pretty good and useful, as long as "Their strongest feat is a creation feat" isn't considered evidence. We should actually see them lose their power and have that actually make them weaker for it to count.

 

[KLOL506]

Why is ineligible criteria 5 one that nukes chances of scaling? It says it can't be used to cross-scale and can only be scaled to individual users, but that should be the case for universal energy systems in the first place.

In this case the individual would only scale to their own unique power, and for physical scaling their power source must share the same qualifying criteria as a UES.

Like I said, this is why it's pretty hard to properly make non-UES power stuff considerably different compared to UES, but that does not mean we prevent the non-UES to allow scaling physicals if the criteria are met.

Maybe I could change it so that it doesn't nuke scaling if there is a healthy amount of power-scaling involved. Should I?

The big bad boss who uses magic to casually create a universe shouldn't scale to the first fodder enemy's fireball. Characters would have to scale to the character with the creation feat.

I don't exactly get this. Are you trying to say that the big bad boss who casually flexes a universe into existence wouldn't even physically scale above an incomparable fodder enemy's Tier 9 fireball? Because that sounds preposterously wrong on all fronts, FULL STOP.

So what does that criteria stop from occurring, and why?

I also should say that I'm okay with criteria 4, and I think it's actually pretty good and useful, as long as "Their strongest feat is a creation feat" isn't considered evidence. We should actually see them lose their power and have that actually make them weaker for it to count.

If you're talking about Qualifying Criteria 4, then yes, it should be used to scale to at the very least prove a UES being in play. But at the same time "their strongest feat is a creation feat" term should also not be used to dissuade from scaling the creation feat to physicals, as Chariot showed in the case of Zelda, there's more to it than that, and also as long as the qualifying criteria are met.

 

[Agnaa]

In this case the individual would only scale to their own unique power, and for physical scaling their power source must share the same qualifying criteria as a UES.

Like I said, this is why it's pretty hard to properly make non-UES power stuff considerably different compared to UES, but that does not mean we prevent the non-UES to allow scaling physicals if the criteria are met.

Maybe I could change it so that it doesn't nuke scaling if there is a healthy amount of power-scaling involved. Should I?

Yeah, but my point is that those are the same rules that apply to universal energy systems. Why separate things like Quirks when they have the same standards?

I don't exactly get this. Are you trying to say that the big bad boss who casually flexes a universe into existence wouldn't even physically scale above an incomparable fodder enemy's Tier 9 fireball?

I am saying that the incomparable fodder shouldn't be universe level from that.

Universal Energy Systems already only scale to their own power, without outside reasons for powerscaling between characters. Why bother saying that non-UES systems only have characters scale to their own power?

 

[KLOL506]

SNIP

I'd suggest reloading first before replying, I made quite a few edits after posting.

 

[KLOL506]

In this case the individual would only scale to their own unique power, and for physical scaling their power source must share the same qualifying criteria as a UES.

Like I said, this is why it's pretty hard to properly make non-UES power stuff considerably different compared to UES, but that does not mean we prevent the non-UES to allow scaling physicals if the criteria are met.

Maybe I could change it so that it doesn't nuke scaling if there is a healthy amount of power-scaling involved. Should I?

Yeah, but my point is that those are the same rules that apply to universal energy systems. Why separate things like Quirks when they have the same standards?

Because not all Quirks operate the same way? Like Endeavor's Quirk for example. Not sure how one could word it any better than that. Plus the Quirks are not sharing a single energy pool like you would generally see with Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, DMC's Demonic Energy etc.

I don't exactly get this. Are you trying to say that the big bad boss who casually flexes a universe into existence wouldn't even physically scale above an incomparable fodder enemy's Tier 9 fireball?

I am saying that the incomparable fodder shouldn't be universe level from that.

Oh yeah, this I can agree with, only god-tiers performing the feat casually like this would be universe level through and through. And of course, anyone stronger than the god-tiers. I thought this was already established.

Universal Energy Systems already only scale to their own power, without outside reasons for powerscaling between characters. Why bother saying that non-UES systems only have characters scale to their own power?

A UES is generally widespread across an entire verse for everyone to tap into the same energy source, but with non-UES that energy source is usually exclusive to the character's own internal stamina that is not connected to an even bigger energy pool, and it's not like the other Quirk users are taking energy from those other Quirk users to amplify their own abilities to whatever they're tiered at. Should we just rename non-UES as Individual Energy/Power Source in that case?

 

[KLOL506]

-snip-

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that it seems weird to see non-UES requiring the same criteria to qualify as UES, but I'm not sure if I can think of any better criteria to make the two separate and distinct from each other since from what I can see, the only difference between a non-UES and UES is that the non-UES is localized and the UES isn't.

We could always use powerscaling as an option, but again, that really isn't related to UES.

 

[Agnaa]

Because not all Quirks operate the same way? Like Endeavor's Quirk for example. Not sure how one could word it any better than that. Plus the Quirks are not sharing a single energy pool like you would generally see with Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, DMC's Demonic Energy etc.

Not all Quirks operate the same way. Of course. But what does that knowledge stop us from doing? It's not like we'd scale {MHA'S ANTAGONIST} to {MHA'S PROTAGONIST} just because they both have Quirks. In the same way that we don't scale Cell to Raditz just because they both have Ki.

My point is that there's no scaling that's stopped by acknowledging that they don't operate the same way. Characters need to survive each other's energy beams or whatever to scale regardless.

A UES is generally widespread across an entire verse for everyone to tap into the same energy source, but with non-UES that energy source is usually exclusive to the character's own internal stamina that is not connected to an even bigger energy pool, and it's not like the other Quirk users are taking energy from those other Quirk users to amplify their own abilities to whatever they're tiered at. Should we just rename non-UES as Individual Energy/Power Source in that case?

I don't think that's even true, in many UES cases characters have their own pools of Chakra and the like. I don't think there's always one ocean of Chakra that everyone draws from letting every character scale to every other character.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Qualifying Criteria 2: Usage of a singular energy source for all related feats.

Qualifying Criteria 5: Needs to explicitly be a common source of power within the verse for the characters to replicate their feats with

Possible Qualifying Criteria 6: Energy source must serve as a core underpinning to the verse's lore and its metaphysical/natural elements and aspects

I would suggest "singular energy source" and "multiple but similar sources", verses with multiple but dissimilar sources of energy will have to scale each energy individually, but energy system is allowed inside groups pf individual using particular energy tself.

Criteria 7: Creation feats in particular need to be shown to be equally-or-less-taxing than normal base attacks, one way of proving this is to see with how much effort the Creation Feat was done, another way to see this is to check if they were holding back on their power or focusing their blasts for precision or for damage control in cases of their casual attacks causing damage over a small area (You're welcome to add any other piece of evidence we can use to qualify it for scaling, but me personally I'm not sure whether this is better suited for the Creation Feats Page or the UES page, or we could put it in both or we could just put it in the Creation Feats Page and then link to the UES guidelines separately)

Agreed.

Criteria 3: Direct correlation needs to be established between the universal system and outright power or potential capabilities (As in, statements or thorough indications that show that the UES is what is especially used to perform such feats, even though a UES would do this by default, though there are some cases where it can be pretty hard to discern where it involves tapping into a technological powerhouse that powers up several high-tech weapon using the same energy and sharing the same properties, if the energy source itself is not named anywhere in the series and the characteristics and properties of said weapons are all we have to go by)

Agree.

Criteria 1: Empowering themselves by directly channeling their powers through physical objects and amplifying their statistics (Already a default, works even better if they can amplify stuff outside of their bodies, like weapons cough DMC2 Dante cough, machinery, etc.)

Agreed.

1 potentially-useless qualifying criteria-
Criteria 4 (Removal of the power-source which shows dramatic loss of power or life-force to the point of being weaker than a normal human and also suffering from extreme exhaustion, pain or even death) (Though I still think this should be a requirement to at least prove that a UES is at play to begin with even if you don't want to use it for the scaling, like DMC1 novel nexuses draining Dante to the point where he can barely get up or DMC2 novel Beastheads sapping away Dante's powers to the point where he's reduced to being weaker than an old man)

I also support keeping this point.
Since it can server litmus test to atleast indicate existence of UES and how users depend on it for amplification and application.

Ineligible Criteria 1. Reliance upon external abilities to access different abilities like-
*Weapons that massively amp your attack potency but without it you're as weak as a human
*Characters being wholly mundane without items which would make it a feat for the items and not the wielders themselves
*(Possibly) Totems being used to grant users assorted magical powers (Assuming they don't qualify for the above rules and if each totem is reserved for each specific ability)

What about artefacts which share same type of energy as user(leading to energy sharing) or even if user himself did not have energy but weapon provided it.
I would still allow scaling in that aspect, if it can empower user.
Even DDM agreed.

At best it can serve as neutral point, I wouldn't call it disqualifier for energy system.

Ineligible Criteria 3. Attacks being "outliers" for a character's physical statistics can be used as evidence against it qualifying- Obviously if the feat isn't consistent with the story's theme or lore and is a one-off feat that nobody cares about and is done by someone of insignificant worth you can use this to kick the feat out altogether

I mean Outlier page handles the instructions of feats being outlier, wouldn't it be redundant in UES page.

Ineligible Criteria 5. Individual non-UES-based powers that are unique to each individual character and can't be used to cross-scale to characters and can only be scaled to individual users, if you wanna scale them to physicals then you'll also have to pass the required qualifying criteria, or else those said abilities get scaled separately from your physicals. Like Quirks, X-Gene, MCU magic, Arrowverse magic, Harry Potter magic, etc.

I don't support cross scaling between characters either.

But option for user scaling to his own energy should remain open in non-UES case.

 

[KLOL506]

Because not all Quirks operate the same way? Like Endeavor's Quirk for example. Not sure how one could word it any better than that. Plus the Quirks are not sharing a single energy pool like you would generally see with Naruto's Chakra, Dragon Ball's Ki, DMC's Demonic Energy etc.

Not all Quirks operate the same way. Of course. But what does that knowledge stop us from doing? It's not like we'd scale {MHA'S ANTAGONIST} to {MHA'S PROTAGONIST} just because they both have Quirks. In the same way that we don't scale Cell to Raditz just because they both have Ki.

My point is that there's no scaling that's stopped by acknowledging that they don't operate the same way. Characters need to survive each other's energy beams or whatever to scale regardless.

Fair point. Would you then suggest to include a power-scaling factor into this then?

A UES is generally widespread across an entire verse for everyone to tap into the same energy source, but with non-UES that energy source is usually exclusive to the character's own internal stamina that is not connected to an even bigger energy pool, and it's not like the other Quirk users are taking energy from those other Quirk users to amplify their own abilities to whatever they're tiered at. Should we just rename non-UES as Individual Energy/Power Source in that case?

I don't think that's even true, in many UES cases characters have their own pools of Chakra and the like. I don't think there's always one ocean of Chakra that everyone draws from letting every character scale to every other character.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm, not so sure about that, people could tap into Naruto's Kyuubi Chakra during the Fourth Shinobi World War.

 

[Agnaa]

Fair point. Would you then suggest to include a power-scaling factor into this then?

I guess? I'd mainly suggest that individualistic systems like Quirks wouldn't get disqualified if they follow the other factors, so you'd remove ineligibility criteria 5 and shore everything else up wherever necessary.

 

[KLOL506]

I'll reply to the parts I've had experience with

I mean Outlier page handles the instructions of feats being outlier, wouldn't it be redundant in UES page.

Yeah, this point is already made redundant by the mere existence of the Outlier page. If it's an outlier, it's an outlier, and it wouldn't scale UES or no UES.

I don't support cross scaling between characters either.

But option for user scaling to his own energy should remain open in non-UES case.

Yes, this much I agree with, at the bare minimum they should scale to their own energy unless stated otherwise.

The rest are a tad bit too confusing for me, especially the weapon parts.

 

[KLOL506]

I would suggest "singular energy source" and "multiple but similar sources", verses with multiple but dissimilar sources of energy will have to scale each energy individually, but energy system is allowed inside groups pf individual using particular energy tself.

The last line is a bit confusing for me, especially with the "pf" part. But everything before that makes sense, I think?

What about artefacts which share same type of energy as user(leading to energy sharing) or even if user himself did not have energy but weapon provided it.
I would still allow scaling in that aspect, if it can empower user.
Even DDM agreed.

At best it can serve as neutral point, I wouldn't call it disqualifier for energy system.

Forgot DDM's argument here, can you link it one more time?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The rest are a tad bit too confusing for me, especially the weapon parts.

Lemme give an example.

Say, Sanctus and Devil Sword Sparda, or Arkham and Devil Sword Sparda.

I think Kisame and Samaheda?

The Giant Blue Humanoid Star Destroyer in Asura's Wrath amps Deus with Mantra.

 

[KLOL506]

Fair point. Would you then suggest to include a power-scaling factor into this then?

I guess? I'd mainly suggest that individualistic systems like Quirks wouldn't get disqualified if they follow the other factors, so you'd remove ineligibility criteria 5 and shore everything else up wherever necessary.

OK so I removed Ineligible Criteria 5, how would we word the new criteria involving power-scaling and stuff? Any ideas?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The last line is a bit confusing for me, especially with the "pf" part. But everything before that makes sense, I think?

Spelling mistake, it was "of".

Forgot DDM's argument here, can you link it one more time?

Sure, lemme find it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Forgot DDM's argument here, can you link it one more time?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-universal-energy-systems.125760/post-4210408

 

[KLOL506]

Lemme give an example.

Say, Sanctus and Devil Sword Sparda, or Arkham and Devil Sword Sparda.

Devil Sword Sparda is basically Sparda's own power, no? It'd definitely scale here, since both Sanctus and Arkham were directly trying to tap into the sword's full power (Which itself stems from Sparda himself who cleaved Mundus's fused universe back into the two separate Demon and Human World). Of course, we both know how horribly they both failed because neither Sanctus nor Arkham were worthy to wield the DSS nor did either of them possess Sparda's blood (Arkham turned into a blob and Sanctus turned into a heinous demon with horns on his head).

I think Kisame and Samaheda?

The Giant Blue Humanoid Star Destroyer in Asura's Wrath amps Deus with Mantra.

Not too sure in these regards.

 

[KLOL506]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-universal-energy-systems.125760/post-4210408

Okay so...

That was back then actually, but actually I wouldn't say being amped by an artifact that is capable of creation has them be as powerful as the artifact by default. But if a character uses said artifact like a battery; creating things doesn't deplete much of it, but an epic battle using said artifact to amp physicals basically exerting said artifact would most definitely scale.

So basically, same argument regarding requiring attacks to consume at least as much energy or more than the creation feat except this time you're doing it with Weapons. And of course, after that you can literally slap power-scaling on, since the burden of proof with using your weapons at full power is even less than using bosses using their attacks at full power, considering just how many super-damaging combos and attacks a weapon can give, hack-and-slash verses are the biggest examples of this.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Devil Sword Sparda is basically Sparda's own power, no? It'd definitely scale here, since both Sanctus and Arkham were directly trying to tap into the sword's full power (Which itself stems from Sparda himself who cleaved Mundus's fused universe back into the two separate Demon and Human World). Of course, we both know how horribly they both failed because neither Sanctus nor Arkham were worthy to wield the DSS nor did either of them possess Sparda's blood (Arkham turned into a blob and Sanctus turned into a heinous demon with horns on his head).

No no you misunderstood.

I meant Arkham/Sanctus are fodder without sword. The moment they lose possession of sword they are back to their weak selves.

Not too sure in these regards.

Well I can explain Deus atleast, lemme get a YT video.

Btw Mantra outright qualifies for everything and quite blatantly UES. But I just wanted to show external weapons empowering individual.



Mantra is source of life for these cyber gods, and source of power.


Deus using the collected mantra of 12000yrs for amping himself from the big blue guy.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So basically, same argument regarding requiring attacks to consume at least as much energy or more than the creation feat except this time you're doing it with Weapons. And of course, after that you can literally slap power-scaling on, since the burden of proof with using your weapons at full power is even less than using bosses using their attacks at full power, considering just how many super-damaging combos and attacks a weapon can give, hack-and-slash verses are the biggest examples of this.

So what is your suggestion?

So basically power scaling is more than enough?

My main intention was energy sharing between 2 entities could be a plus point in proving energy system is UES.

 

[KLOL506]

No no you misunderstood.

I meant Arkham/Sanctus are fodder without sword. The moment they lose possession of sword they are back to their weak selves.

Ooooooooooooh. Yeah. True enough. They cannot reliably hope to scale to the sword's power as it is, and without the sword, they're effectively screwed.

Well I can explain Deus atleast, lemme get a YT video.

Btw Mantra outright qualifies for everything and quite blatantly UES. But I just wanted to show external weapons empowering individual.



Mantra is source of life for these cyber gods, and source of power.


Deus using the collected mantra of 12000yrs for amping himself from the big blue guy.

Ah, this is fine then.

 

[KLOL506]

So what is your suggestion?

So basically power scaling is more than enough?

Well, wouldn't it fall under Criteria 7 anyway? At least for the energy consumption part.

My main intention was energy sharing between 2 entities could be a plus point in proving energy system is UES.

Oh yes, definitely. Just like in the case of Naruto sharing his own Bijuu energy with the entire armies of the Four Nations.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Well, wouldn't it fall under Criteria 7 anyway? At least for the energy consumption part.

Yeah.

Oh yes, definitely. Just like in the case of Naruto sharing his own Bijuu energy with the entire armies of the Four Nations.

Nice!! Yeah, that's better comparison.

 

[KatBoi69]

The storm feats were also casual and Link also survives hits from Ganondorf's strongest magic bolt attack and trades blows with him accordingly. There's also a hypothetical about Ganondorf with Triforce of Power upscaling from Majora's base form who scales to Young Link with the Triforce of Courage.

So there's just straight up other stuff to consider besides a UES argument. Got it.

But, this isn't a Zelda crt, soooo.. .

 

[KatBoi69]

Also, I don't support removing the 4th current criterion about power loss resulting in exhaustion/death/powerlessness/aging. It's a key piece of evidence to connect casting to physicals.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, I don't support removing the 4th current criterion about power loss resulting in exhaustion/death/powerlessness/aging. It's a key piece of evidence to connect casting to physicals.

Yeah, Agnaa and I agreed that at the very least it should support a UES being at play.

 

[KLOL506]

So there's just straight up other stuff to consider besides a UES argument. Got it.

But, this isn't a Zelda crt, soooo.. .

DDM got beat by Chariot so...

 

[Agnaa]

Also, I don't support removing the 4th current criterion about power loss resulting in exhaustion/death/powerlessness/aging. It's a key piece of evidence to connect casting to physicals.

My problem with it is that every series automatically gives it, with the standard of evidence that KLOL and Gilver were requiring for it. Where simply having a creation/UES feat be more powerful than your physical feats qualifies you. They don't think you need to lose the power and get exhausted/die/lose power/age to qualify.

If every series that wants to scale creation feats/UES' qualifies, then it's pointless to include it as a piece of criteria.

 

[KLOL506]

My problem with it is that every series automatically gives it, with the standard of evidence that KLOL and Gilver were requiring for it. Where simply having a creation/UES feat be more powerful than your physical feats qualifies you. They don't think you need to lose the power and get exhausted/die/lose power/age to qualify.

If every series that wants to scale creation feats/UES' qualifies, then it's pointless to include it as a piece of criteria.

I believe we dumped the whole "their strongest feat is a creation feat" argument to qualify as evidence for Criteria 4 after the discussion, but once again, at the same time, this argument should also not be used to dissuade from scaling the creation feat to physicals, as Chariot showed in the case of Zelda, there's more to it than that, and also as long as the qualifying criteria are met.

At the very least Criteria 4 should remain just for the sole purpose of quantifying that a UES is indeed in play (Though to be fair I only remember the DMC1 and DMC2 Novels and Naruto Shippudden to show Criteria 4 in such a graphic manner LOL).

 

[Agnaa]

I believe we dumped the whole "their strongest feat is a creation feat" argument to qualify as evidence for Criteria 4 after the discussion

Oh, I didn't realize. My bad.

at the same time, this argument should also not be used to dissuade from scaling the creation feat to physicals, as Chariot showed in the case of Zelda, there's more to it than that, and also as long as the qualifying criteria are met.

Of course not. "A is not evidence for B" does not mean "A is evidence for B being false".

At the very least Criteria 4 should remain just for the sole purpose of quantifying that a UES is indeed in play

Like I said, I'm fine with that criteria if it's not granted so easily.

 

[KLOL506]

I believe we dumped the whole "their strongest feat is a creation feat" argument to qualify as evidence for Criteria 4 after the discussion

Oh, I didn't realize. My bad.

at the same time, this argument should also not be used to dissuade from scaling the creation feat to physicals, as Chariot showed in the case of Zelda, there's more to it than that, and also as long as the qualifying criteria are met.

Of course not. "A is not evidence for B" does not mean "A is evidence for B being false".

At the very least Criteria 4 should remain just for the sole purpose of quantifying that a UES is indeed in play

Like I said, I'm fine with that criteria if it's not granted so easily.

Finally. Now we can focus on the draft itself.

So, now that's been dealt with, how do we tackle the wording for the power-scaling aspect criteria when it comes to non-UES stuff like Quirks, X-Genes and the like? Quirks might be manageable, but the X-Gene? That's a whole can of worms to tackle.

 

[KLOL506]

At the very least Criteria 4 should remain just for the sole purpose of quantifying that a UES is indeed in play

Like I said, I'm fine with that criteria if it's not granted so easily.

Also now that I'm looking at it, I don't think we're gonna be getting situations as vivid as DMC or Naruto or Asura's Wrath and the like that often.

 

[KatBoi69]

DDM got beat by Chariot so...

Overall idrc because the outcome of this argument shouldn't influence the UES guidelines vote. It's a weirdass test case imo.

 

[Stefano4444]

So, now that's been dealt with, how do we tackle the wording for the power-scaling aspect criteria when it comes to non-UES stuff like Quirks, X-Genes and the like? Quirks might be manageable, but the X-Gene? That's a whole can of worms to tackle.

For startes, things like Quirks and X-Gene aren't natural/mystical energy fields, but rather genetic mutations each indipendent to the others (unless we're talking about characters possessing someone's ability via genetic inheritance from their parents like Shoto Todoroki or via intense genetic modification like Super Skrull).

 

[KLOL506]

Bump