We need to talk about Beidou and Genshin High 7-A Scaling (Genshin CRT)

[Pikaman]

Ok so I think it’s time we talked about Bruno Beidou

Beidou is, as we all know, High 7-A, and it is her tier that is used for scaling Genshin’s other High 7-A, Xiao.

But her justification is iffy and outdated

So Beidou’s High 7-A comes from her slaying of Haishan, “who was stated to be comparable in power to gods, dealing the finishing blow that severed its head in a single strike”

If you were to click that hyperlink it leads to a Venti Calc

But Venti (in his prime Barbatos Key) is now 6-C..

So if you want to scale Beidou to the archons, she (and Xiao) would need upgrades to keep her profile up to date

But why on earth is Beidou being scaled to the archons anyways? “The gods” could be literally any group of deities from before the archon war, plenty of which would not have 6-C justifications, there’s also no scan for where that comparison is made, so we can’t get specifics, who knows, maybe Haishan was being compared to the archons, but we can’t tell from the description of “gods” because there are so many across Genshin lore. I’ve looked about but can find literally no statement that compares Haishan to “the Gods”

I think High 7-A is fair anyways because it would downscale from the archons, but we still need to make some minor changes here and there to make sure the justifications are in check.

PROPOSITIONS:

-Get a scan for Haishan being compared to “the gods” to find out whether that refers simply to any old Genshin deity or the archons themselves

-Work out from there what to do with Beidou’s tiering and justification.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I believe that the current scaling for the gods and those that are comparable is by using Venti's effortless feat as a baseline for them though I can't say that I know the exact reasoning.

 

[Pikaman]

I believe that the current scaling for the gods and those that are comparable is by using Venti's effortless feat as a baseline for them though I can't say that I know the exact reasoning.

That’s uh- a weird way to powerscale, surely there’s better ways to figure tierings for feats such as this out?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

That’s uh- a weird way to powerscale, surely there’s better ways to figure tierings for feats such as this out?

Well, just with the details that I myself can provide it's definitely weird. It's better to get more information about the scaling from the other Genshin Impact supporters and to make it more clear on the profiles if the reasoning is valid. Should I bring it up to them in the Discord group?

 

[Pikaman]

Well, just with the details that I myself can provide it's definitely weird. It's better to get more information about the scaling from the other Genshin Impact supporters and to make it more clear on the profiles if the reasoning is valid. Should I bring it up to them in the Discord group?

I mean it would be good to get some other Genshin Supporters on this, it just feels a weird and janky system that could probably do with an overhaul

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I mean it would be good to get some other Genshin Supporters on this, it just feels a weird and janky system that could probably do with an overhaul

As I already said, I don't know the exact reasoning behind it and what I told you is just my vague impression. I can't guarantee that there aren't missing details which would make this a lot more valid, so further input is definitely needed.

 

[Wdinatx]

The legends about Haishan in Beidou’s story quest mention the fact that sea monsters on the his level had their defeat associated with Rex Lapis and his mountain sized spears rather than just generally the adepti. I doubt it means that he’s stronger than Xiao because he’s generally an exception and Yakshas specifically work in the shadows but it means that when a beast like this turned up in the Archon War Morax had to step in himself or disaster would strike.

Also just for a reminder winning that fight was the trial to get her Vision, meaning she got it afterwords.

 

[Pikaman]

The legends about Haishan in Beidou’s story quest mention the fact that sea monsters on the his level had their defeat associated with Rex Lapis and his mountain sized spears rather than just generally the adepti. I doubt it means that he’s stronger than Xiao because he’s generally an exception and Yakshas specifically work in the shadows but it means that when a beast like this turned up in the Archon War Morax had to step in himself or disaster would strike.

Also just for a reminder winning that fight was the trial to get her Vision, meaning she got it afterwords.

Well if Rex Lapis himself had to step in then wouldn’t something like “At least High 7-A, potentially 6-C” work better?

Wording could be something like “Even prior to obtaining her Vision, she was critical to the defeat of the legendary sea monster Haishan, who was on the level of similar monsters who themselves needed the intervention of Rex Lapis and his mountain sized spears to be dealt with. Beidou was responsible for dealing the finishing blow that severed its head in a single strike; a feat that impressed Xiao enough for him to acknowledge her strength

Obviously similar changes would happen to Xiao

 

[Wdinatx]

Well if Rex Lapis himself had to step in then wouldn’t something like “At least High 7-A, potentially 6-C” work better?

Wording could be something like “Even prior to obtaining her Vision, she was critical to the defeat of the legendary sea monster Haishan, who was on the level of similar monsters who themselves needed the intervention of Rex Lapis and his mountain sized spears to be dealt with. Beidou was responsible for dealing the finishing blow that severed its head in a single strike; a feat that impressed Xiao enough for him to acknowledge her strength

Obviously similar changes would happen to Xiao

That would probably be for the best. Note that I was just saying the logic for where Haishan is compared to the other characters rather than saying anything about tiers.

 

[Pikaman]

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[Pikaman]

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[Pikaman]

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[Pikaman]

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[Pikaman]

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[Nehz_XZX]

Well if Rex Lapis himself had to step in then wouldn’t something like “At least High 7-A, potentially 6-C” work better?

Wording could be something like “Even prior to obtaining her Vision, she was critical to the defeat of the legendary sea monster Haishan, who was on the level of similar monsters who themselves needed the intervention of Rex Lapis and his mountain sized spears to be dealt with. Beidou was responsible for dealing the finishing blow that severed its head in a single strike; a feat that impressed Xiao enough for him to acknowledge her strength

Obviously similar changes would happen to Xiao

That would probably be for the best. Note that I was just saying the logic for where Haishan is compared to the other characters rather than saying anything about tiers.

I wouldn't mind that sort of change either but I would still like to see what others have to say about this before something like this gets applied.

 

[Jackpact]

While i do agree with the new possible reasoning (i do have to see where it come from first) i would say that just plain high 7A is good, sure even if the adepti can't reliably deal with them, it's still questionable whether the more powerful Yaksha was free since they either still wasn't contracted yet or are busy battling the miasma/karma of the powerful monster and god.

For all we know Zhongli could've just stomp those sea monsters instead which would make some sense since even the strongest sea monster we know of (the Baqiu, which was able to beat back and likely defeat the god slaying whale that Zhongli created) that isn't Osial was defeated by Xiao spear (which i also doubt is actually young Zhongli full power considering how he kinda just casually create it) which were created by a far younger Zhongli then the archon war one.

 

[Pikaman]

While i do agree with the new possible reasoning (i do have to see where it come from first) i would say that just plain high 7A is good, sure even if the adepti can't reliably deal with them, it's still questionable whether the more powerful Yaksha was free since they either still wasn't contracted yet or are busy battling the miasma/karma of the powerful monster and god.

For all we know Zhongli could've just stomp those sea monsters instead which would make some sense since even the strongest sea monster we know of (the Baqiu, which was able to beat back and likely defeat the god slaying whale that Zhongli created) that isn't Osial was defeated by Xiao spear (which i also doubt is actually young Zhongli full power considering how he kinda just casually create it) which were created by a far younger Zhongli then the archon war one.

It’s true that Zhongli could have just stomped the sea monsters, but he calls his relationship with Osial an “Ancient Grudge” which implies more than he just went “lol stone spears gg no re”

This implies that the sea monsters were in some way or another able to match/only mildly downscale from Zhongli, meaning Beidou slaying one (without a vision mind you, her AP will have greatly increased since this feat) seems fair enough justification for “possibly 6-C”

 

[Shey]

It’s true that Zhongli could have just stomped the sea monsters, but he calls his relationship with Osial an “Ancient Grudge” which implies more than he just went “lol stone spears gg no re”

This implies that the sea monsters were in some way or another able to match/only mildly downscale from Zhongli, meaning Beidou slaying one (without a vision mind you, her AP will have greatly increased since this feat) seems fair enough justification for “possibly 6-C”

Why does Haishan necessarily scale to Zhongli having a grudge with the Overlord of the Vortex
Sure he used stone spears to casually slay his kind but why's this scaling directly to Osial
He had a grudge with the god Osial not the average Sea monster

 

[Pikaman]

Why does Haishan necessarily scale to Zhongli having a grudge with the Overlord of the Vortex
Sure he used stone spears to casually slay his kind but why's this scaling directly to Osial
He had a grudge with the god Osial not the average Sea monster

Aren’t we talking about how Haishan scales to sea monsters who needed Rex Lapis’ intervention like Osial? Even assuming he was the apex sea monster the others have to be relatively similar, otherwise they would just be dealt with by the other Adepti.

but let’s assume Haishan doesn’t scale, at which point Beidou power scaling looks like this:

Beidou > Haishan < Osial < Rex Lapis > Prime Barbatos > Decabrian > 34.451 Gigatons (Lupus Boreas)

Or to simplify

Beidou > Haishan < Osial < Rex Lapis >>> 34.451 Gigatons

Simplifying even further:

Beidou > Haishan << Rex Lapis >>> 34.451 Gigatons

And that’s WITHOUT her Vision, which would greatly increase her AP, surely “possibly 6-C” is fair enough? Even if it isn’t for Beidou, it certainly should be for Xiao:

Xiao > Beidou > Haishan < Osial < Rex Lapis >>> 34.451 Gigatons

Or further simplified:

Xiao >> Haishan << Rex Lapis >>> 34.451 Gigatons

But this CRT was only really made to improve and clarify Beidou’s justifications, so if the tier change isn’t popular I have no issue letting it go

 

[Jackpact]

It’s true that Zhongli could have just stomped the sea monsters, but he calls his relationship with Osial an “Ancient Grudge” which implies more than he just went “lol stone spears gg no re”

This implies that the sea monsters were in some way or another able to match/only mildly downscale from Zhongli, meaning Beidou slaying one (without a vision mind you, her AP will have greatly increased since this feat) seems fair enough justification for “possibly 6-C”

Osial was specifically shown to be a match for archon war Zhongli albeit eventually defeated by him, the other sea monster was not mentioned at all to be notable enemy to him, only that they got shaft by him while the adepti who scale above Shenhe might not be able to so this doesn't really imply that sea monster on the level of Haishan was anywhere close to Osial level.

Also a very young (like literally just descend) Zhongli literally start terraforming, killing gods and powerful sea monsters the moment he descended down Teyvat including a monster that was able to defeat his gods killing creation. All of this before he was even worship which would bolster his power even more which would be when he start taking the people of Liyue under his wing and when he start to see human as not trash so i doubt he would still be on the same level as his very young version (which would be like more than 2000 years ago at that point so he would already not be the same as his young self).

So yeah, high 7A only is the way.

 

[Jackpact]

Also nice profile pic Pikaman, just notice the sus Venti.

 

[Shey]

Osial was specifically shown to be a match for archon war Zhongli albeit eventually defeated by him,

(which would be like more than 2000 years ago at that point so he would already not be the same as his young self).

Him not being the same as his younger self is confirmed when Signora states that if the chaos Osial caused goes beyond the point of return Zhongli would subdue him easily

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Him not being the same as his younger self is confirmed when Signora states that if the chaos Osial caused goes beyond the point of return Zhongli would subdue him easily

That was a Zhongli with a Gnosis.

 

[Pikaman]

That was a Zhongli with a Gnosis.

Yeah, obviously Geo Archin Zhonghli is stronger than him when he was an Adepti

 

[Wdinatx]

That would probably be for the best. Note that I was just saying the logic for where Haishan is compared to the other characters rather than saying anything about tiers.

This is more for posterity and to maybe to link it in the profile than anything to do with the debate (I’m agreeing with this path though) but here’s where I found the thing:
“This was Beidou's childhood lullaby. The tale of Rex Lapis smiting the sea monsters had become legendary among the people of Liyue. As a child, Beidou loved tales like this, and in her dreams, she thought: One day, I want to see this big fish too.”
Note how it has “monsters” there, as in multiple

 

[Pikaman]

This is more for posterity and to maybe to link it in the profile than anything to do with the debate (I’m agreeing with this path though) but here’s where I found the thing:
“This was Beidou's childhood lullaby. The tale of Rex Lapis smiting the sea monsters had become legendary among the people of Liyue. As a child, Beidou loved tales like this, and in her dreams, she thought: One day, I want to see this big fish too.”
Note how it has “monsters” there, as in multiple

Thanks!

 

[Pikaman]

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[Elizhaa]

It seems like gods scaled to Venti would be decently high in 6-C; the difference between High 7-A and 6-C from Venti's High 7-A calculation and new calculation scaling for Venti is around 26.1 times (34.451/1.32 G.t.).
I think 6-C works better as it is unlikely that Beido would hurt such character if she were this weak; I think Beidou and those who would scale could downscale to a lower in 6-C.
Here is the evidence for Beidou's case (wiki link) and here (wiki link). It seems sailors thoughts gods like peak Zhonli would be able to defeat it which indicates it might somewhat comparable.

 

[Jackpact]

I'm still hold ground that high 7A is better as we can't just assume that the Haishan is comparable to higher tier god like Andrius instead of the more clear cut average god which would scale to high 7A, but atleast high 7A likely higher also work since the current Beidou would likely be both stronger physically ontop of having a vision.
But if 1.32 is like 1 gig away from 6C then i agree that 6C could be good for her and Xiao but it need to be clarify that Beidou currently far upscale from her past selve that killed the Haishan not that she down scale from Andrius.

 

[Pikaman]

I'm still hold ground that high 7A is better as we can't just assume that the Haishan is comparable to higher tier god like Andrius instead of the more clear cut average god which would scale to high 7A, but atleast high 7A likely higher also work since the current Beidou would likely be both stronger physically ontop of having a vision.
But if 1.32 is like 1 gig away from 6C then i agree that 6C could be good for her and Xiao but it need to be clarify that Beidou currently far upscale from her past selve that killed the Haishan not that she down scale from Andrius.

I feel like it’s been made clear at this point that Haishan was considered a threat that required Zhonghli, so at worst it’s very high up in High 7-A, Beidou killing Haishan before getting a vision constitutes “At least High 7-A, possibly/likely higher”. Even if Haishan scaled to the average, High 7-A god, killing one without even having a vision is easily a feat worthy of “possibly 6-C”

 

[Jackpact]

And what stopping Zhongli from just casually stomp it? Sure the enemy may be beyond the adpeti paygrade but they are only 7A so that doesn't really mean much and the Yaksha main goal at the time was to battle against the Miasma which was filling the land at the time so i doubt they would be free, so it come down to Zhongli to go out and kill them since Azhdaha would be overkill and likely cause more damage then he solve.

Also like i said, i would agree with atleast high 7A likely higher and straight or likely 6C if the gap is like 1 Gig.

 

[Pikaman]

And what stopping Zhongli from just casually stomp it? Sure the enemy may be beyond the adpeti paygrade but they are only 7A so that doesn't really mean much and the Yaksha main goal at the time was to battle against the Miasma which was filling the land at the time so i doubt they would be free, so it come down to Zhongli to go out and kill them since Azhdaha would be overkill and likely cause more damage then he solve.

Zhonghli calls his relationship with Osial an “ancient grudge” and Haishan has to somewhat be similar, albeit weaker, in strength compared to Osial, given Haishan is clearly a Sea Monster of note. I’m sure the Yakasha could spare some time to stop a direct threat to the people of Liyue Harbour, that had them begging for help from higher beings such as Zhonghli.