- 8,136
- 2,156
Clearly he can't null 4-D by feats...
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Was this ever done? Yhwach vs Novel Kars
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
- 8,136
- 2,156
As for absorption he has all types and could spread his black reishi for a couple hundred km if he wants or even planetary.
- 16,940
- 4,844
And that doesnt mean he can null all 3-D haxes either.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
Some level of limitation has to be set for Yhwach's Null.
- 8,427
- 3,142
No - a NLF is saying the Almighty has no limits - not that the limits to the Almighty were never shown.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The limit that Yhwach can't negate 4-D and above abilites is because he is 3-D. That's inherent to his very being due to his dimensionality, it isn't something shown in the series.
And again, if you can resist power null, then you can resist Yhwach power nulling you - that's common ******* sense.
- 8,136
- 2,156
Thankfully we already have one which is 3-D hax, unless you have some arbritary tier list for hax? this duscission was already had. You either have resistance on par with Almighty or you don't simple as that.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
- 16,940
- 4,844
>No - a NLF is saying the Almighty has no limits - not that the limits to the Almighty were never shown.
Thats...literally the same thing.
>The limit that Yhwach can't negate 4-D and above abilites is because he is 3-D. That's inherent to his very being due to his dimensionality, it isn't something shown in the series.
And like I just said to Sigurd above, this is not an excuse to say Yhwach can suddenly null any and all haxes that are below 4-D without the feats to prove it.
>And again, if you can resist power null, then you can resist Yhwach power nulling you - that's common ******* sense.
Resistance is also not a get out of jail free card for this. Just because people can resist abilities doesnt mean we can establish the extent of haxes to be anything we want them to be without evidence for it. Feats matter for a reason.
Thats like saying mind hax can work on any scale I want it to, despite not having an inkling of evidence to prove it works on said scale, because mind hax resistance exists.
Thats...literally the same thing.
>The limit that Yhwach can't negate 4-D and above abilites is because he is 3-D. That's inherent to his very being due to his dimensionality, it isn't something shown in the series.
And like I just said to Sigurd above, this is not an excuse to say Yhwach can suddenly null any and all haxes that are below 4-D without the feats to prove it.
>And again, if you can resist power null, then you can resist Yhwach power nulling you - that's common ******* sense.
Resistance is also not a get out of jail free card for this. Just because people can resist abilities doesnt mean we can establish the extent of haxes to be anything we want them to be without evidence for it. Feats matter for a reason.
Thats like saying mind hax can work on any scale I want it to, despite not having an inkling of evidence to prove it works on said scale, because mind hax resistance exists.
- 8,136
- 2,156
I honestly don't get the point you're trying to make at all here. You're not suggesting anything new here that isn't being followed already. The OP also made a CRT on power-null in general already, and your complaint is literally on the power null page.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3053730
"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects.
However, certain forms of Power Nullification may prevent the usage of powers through less direct methods, making resistance less useful and the strength of the ability less relevant."
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3053730
"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects.
However, certain forms of Power Nullification may prevent the usage of powers through less direct methods, making resistance less useful and the strength of the ability less relevant."
- 8,427
- 3,142
No it isn't. Stating an ability has no limits would be me saying that Yhwach can power null the Outer Gods. Which is absolute bullshit.
An ability not having limits stated in the series just mean that the narrative of the story never showed a limit for the ability - that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means that it was never shown.
And what the **** are you going on about with resistances? If you can fight having your power taken, then Yhwach can't take your power - it is that simple.
Why are you getting so uppity over common sense that is already in use? It is detracting from the point of the thread.
An ability not having limits stated in the series just mean that the narrative of the story never showed a limit for the ability - that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means that it was never shown.
And what the **** are you going on about with resistances? If you can fight having your power taken, then Yhwach can't take your power - it is that simple.
Why are you getting so uppity over common sense that is already in use? It is detracting from the point of the thread.
- 16,940
- 4,844
>"It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified.
Im almost 100% sure this is saying that Negation haxes only negate the abilities that they actually have feats of negating from within their respective verses. Hence the italicized wording.
So unless all of Novel Kars abilities for example fall under the abilities in Bleach that Yhwach has nulled, or was stated to be able to null, it would still be a NLF to say Yhwach could null all of his arsenal.
Im almost 100% sure this is saying that Negation haxes only negate the abilities that they actually have feats of negating from within their respective verses. Hence the italicized wording.
So unless all of Novel Kars abilities for example fall under the abilities in Bleach that Yhwach has nulled, or was stated to be able to null, it would still be a NLF to say Yhwach could null all of his arsenal.
- 8,136
- 2,156
I don't have time for this lol.
- 16,940
- 4,844
>An ability not having limits stated in the series just mean that the narrative of the story never showed a limit for the ability - that doesn't mean one doesn't exist, it just means that it was never shown.
And what else is "never shown" going to mean in a debate? Nothing else but an NLF because when one beings up "a limit is never shown", they are going to use it as an argument to say ones ability is not limited to only doing x when facing an obstacle, which can still make it an NLF. So yes, it would still be the same thing as saying it has no limits, otherwise why mention it in the 1st place?
>And what the **** are you going on about with resistances? If you can fight having your power taken, then Yhwach can't take your power - it is that simple.
Your missing my point. Im saying that just because the opponent has a resistance, it does not mean we can start claiming Yhwach's powers can work at any [insert here] extent we want it to be and act like resistance is the only way to stop the power from working. It doesnt work like that.
If you want to claim, for example, that someones mind hax can work on a planetary scale you need feats to prove it can work on that scale. Not claim it can work on a planetary scale and think only mind hax resistance would stop it.
>Why are you getting so uppity over common sense that is already in use? It is detracting from the point of the thread.
Because I have a huge problem with people thinking Yhwach will be able to null someones entire arsenal of powers, 3-D or otherwise, when he has never shown to be able to remotely do that. Unless all of the characters powers are something Yhwach has already dealt with before.
And what else is "never shown" going to mean in a debate? Nothing else but an NLF because when one beings up "a limit is never shown", they are going to use it as an argument to say ones ability is not limited to only doing x when facing an obstacle, which can still make it an NLF. So yes, it would still be the same thing as saying it has no limits, otherwise why mention it in the 1st place?
>And what the **** are you going on about with resistances? If you can fight having your power taken, then Yhwach can't take your power - it is that simple.
Your missing my point. Im saying that just because the opponent has a resistance, it does not mean we can start claiming Yhwach's powers can work at any [insert here] extent we want it to be and act like resistance is the only way to stop the power from working. It doesnt work like that.
If you want to claim, for example, that someones mind hax can work on a planetary scale you need feats to prove it can work on that scale. Not claim it can work on a planetary scale and think only mind hax resistance would stop it.
>Why are you getting so uppity over common sense that is already in use? It is detracting from the point of the thread.
Because I have a huge problem with people thinking Yhwach will be able to null someones entire arsenal of powers, 3-D or otherwise, when he has never shown to be able to remotely do that. Unless all of the characters powers are something Yhwach has already dealt with before.
- 16,940
- 4,844
Thats not exactly a counter argument.Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
- 13,576
- 5,739
What is this redundant argument even about? Does Kars have resistance to power null/steal? Are his powers beyond conceptual manip? If the answer to these questions is "no", why is this not just Almighty GG?
- 8,136
- 2,156
Not meant to be a counter argument, but feel free to make a CRT if you don't understand. And like I said earlier this is how power nullification is treated on this wiki depending on how it's used and various other power specific aspects. right now you're just clogging up the thread with nonsense. I've even answered your question to the greatest thing he nulled which is type 3 concept manipulation, and you're still here asking lol.
You have no argument here since he doesn't have any resistances at all to power null, nor power steal outside of arguing 4-D.
You have no argument here since he doesn't have any resistances at all to power null, nor power steal outside of arguing 4-D.
- 8,427
- 3,142
It's not about the debate - you asked what limits were shown in the series and I responded with there weren't any shown in the verse.
Yhwach's Almighty is greater than everything else in Bleach, and after looking at all of Kars's abilities - nothing in his arsenal looks to be outside of abilites shown in Bleach.
Yhwach's Almighty is greater than everything else in Bleach, and after looking at all of Kars's abilities - nothing in his arsenal looks to be outside of abilites shown in Bleach.
- 16,940
- 4,844
Because unless im missing something, all the abilities Novel Kars has is not something the Almighty has feats of nulling in Bleach?AnonymousBlank said:
>Are his powers beyond conceptual manip?
What does that have to do with anything? Conceptual manipulation is completely different from the rest of Kars arsenal of powers.
- 13,576
- 5,739
It has everything to do with this as that is the strongest thing that The Almighty has nulled and thus its assumed limit. Unless Kars has nothing beyond concept manip, Yhwach is just gonna neg it.
Are you actually trying to say that just because Character A has only nulled universal space, law and time manip, he can't do the same to Character B's wall level water manip despite there being nothing to say he can't? Just because he has no feats for it and the description of his null doesn't explicitly state him being able to, the fact that he can null an enormous variety of powers and ones above what Kars has means its a logical assumption that he can do so here.
Are you actually trying to say that just because Character A has only nulled universal space, law and time manip, he can't do the same to Character B's wall level water manip despite there being nothing to say he can't? Just because he has no feats for it and the description of his null doesn't explicitly state him being able to, the fact that he can null an enormous variety of powers and ones above what Kars has means its a logical assumption that he can do so here.
- 16,940
- 4,844
>Are you actually trying to say that just because Character A has only nulled universal space, law and time manip, he can't do the same to Character B's wall level water manip despite there being nothing to say he can't?
Not only because of that, but because these are 2 completely different powers we are talking about here. That is why im mainly not understanding this line of logic. Conceptual manipulation and [insert here] hax are not the same kind of hax as each other, just because you null one doesnt mean the other is in the same boat.
This logic is completely arbitrary. Its basically saying that "oh since you nulled soul manipulation, guess you get to null time manipulation too!". And that makes absolutely no sense.
Not only because of that, but because these are 2 completely different powers we are talking about here. That is why im mainly not understanding this line of logic. Conceptual manipulation and [insert here] hax are not the same kind of hax as each other, just because you null one doesnt mean the other is in the same boat.
This logic is completely arbitrary. Its basically saying that "oh since you nulled soul manipulation, guess you get to null time manipulation too!". And that makes absolutely no sense.
- 13,576
- 5,739
No. Yhwach is able to null everything in Bleach so he has great versatility in that regard and the conceptual manip just goes to show how potent of an ability he can null.
What is this power you even started this argument for? Because unless you give one, this will never end.
What is this power you even started this argument for? Because unless you give one, this will never end.
- 1,437
- 172
This is turning into the last Thread, they were both discussing the same thing and they got nowhere, the same is happening here ... One of Yhwach's powers is the power cancellation, he showed doing this and he also explained how it works . However you continue to disagree with something that has already been made clear.
- 16,940
- 4,844
>No. Yhwach is able to null everything in Bleach
Yes and if a character has a power that no one in Bleach uses? He doesnt get to suddenly null it. That is part of my point. Unless everything Kars has is something Yhwach hasnt already taken on, there's 0 basis to say Yhwach lolnulls everything. Its wank.
>so he has great versatility in that regard and the conceptual manip just goes to show how potent of an ability he can null.
No, nulling type 3 conceptual manipulation only means Yhwach is able to null one kind of hax thats on an absurd level. Like I said, conceptual manipulation doesnt define every other hax ability.
>One of Yhwach's powers is the power cancellation, he showed doing this and he also explained how it works
Yes and that explanation can easily become wanked if not evaluated more carefully. Like I said, that explanation can only apply to the powers that the Almighty actually has feats of being able to null. Which at best, means every known power in Bleachverse.
If Kars has anything Bleach already has, i'll stop complaining about this here. But if otherwise, then is still going to be a problem.
>If he showed only one kind of power, then you would be right. Yet Yhwach himself claims to be able to nullify and comprehend the powers of any prospect.
And this is, once again, a No Limits Fallacy for the above reasons.
Yes and if a character has a power that no one in Bleach uses? He doesnt get to suddenly null it. That is part of my point. Unless everything Kars has is something Yhwach hasnt already taken on, there's 0 basis to say Yhwach lolnulls everything. Its wank.
>so he has great versatility in that regard and the conceptual manip just goes to show how potent of an ability he can null.
No, nulling type 3 conceptual manipulation only means Yhwach is able to null one kind of hax thats on an absurd level. Like I said, conceptual manipulation doesnt define every other hax ability.
>One of Yhwach's powers is the power cancellation, he showed doing this and he also explained how it works
Yes and that explanation can easily become wanked if not evaluated more carefully. Like I said, that explanation can only apply to the powers that the Almighty actually has feats of being able to null. Which at best, means every known power in Bleachverse.
If Kars has anything Bleach already has, i'll stop complaining about this here. But if otherwise, then is still going to be a problem.
>If he showed only one kind of power, then you would be right. Yet Yhwach himself claims to be able to nullify and comprehend the powers of any prospect.
And this is, once again, a No Limits Fallacy for the above reasons.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
Human Resources
- 16,898
- 7,346
It seems rather bizarre to claim that he has to show proof of nulling every single specific little power when his method is making the opponent lose access to their abilities in the first place
- 16,940
- 4,844
But, thats how negation haxes work. At least on this wikia anyway based on the description we have for negation.
The hax needs to have feats of being able to use that negation on a certain power, otherwise if we just start applying everything to it, it becomes a no limits fallacy.
The hax needs to have feats of being able to use that negation on a certain power, otherwise if we just start applying everything to it, it becomes a no limits fallacy.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
Human Resources
- 16,898
- 7,346
Not really. Mechanics to the power matters. Yhach can cut people off from their powers. Say he does this to some dude who shoots fireballs. If some dude now shoots lightning bolts and this didn't exist in bleach, I would still say that it's rather silly to assume he arbitrarily can't use the exact same mechanic here.
- 8,427
- 3,142
There is a difference between suppressing a power and cutting someone off from it.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
There was a whole big ass thread going over this concept.
- 8,427
- 3,142
Anyway, lets get back to the fight since I have a question.
How the hell is accelerting time indefinitely give someone Low 2-C AP?
How the hell is accelerting time indefinitely give someone Low 2-C AP?
- 8,427
- 3,142
Good night.Wokistan said:
- 16,940
- 4,844
Lightning bolts is something that exists in Bleach though, so that isnt really the best example under these circumstances.Wokistan said:
Whatever thread I missed while I was away, i'd like to take a look at this later. Because its pretty silly to assume someone can even cut off access to powers that they have no feats of cutting access off to. If everyones going to disagree with me on this, I can't change anything, but im calling it as I see it.
- 1,437
- 172
@Kukui
How so NFL? I did not say he had no limits, I just said what Yhwach said .. You're interpreting some wrong things here.
It's like I said, Yhwach's power is to nullify power, he does not say that he can only nullify a particular power. A good example is Kamijou of To Aru.
No Limits Fallacy (NLF) This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
How so NFL? I did not say he had no limits, I just said what Yhwach said .. You're interpreting some wrong things here.
It's like I said, Yhwach's power is to nullify power, he does not say that he can only nullify a particular power. A good example is Kamijou of To Aru.
No Limits Fallacy (NLF) This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).
- 276
- 188
so how does Kars' underSTANDo work? does he need to see the power itself,or he can just look at the enemy,and copy all of his/her powers before latter even showcases them?
- 9,524
- 1,789
If he sees a power used or if a power affects him even if he can't see it he understands and can use itMetalGearRaiden said:
- 19,240
- 2,648
I feel like people forgot that Understando and D4CU existed, making Kars copy anything used and Yhwach unable to put Kars down in any way respectively
- 19,467
- 3,907
Understand works by him seeing or experiencing the power then "understanding" it while realising he also has that power but a better version of it.MetalGearRaiden said:
This is whats on his page "Conceptual Understanding: If Kars finds himself facing a concept or ability that he has not seen or been able to used, it takes just a little exposure before he "understands" this concept and is capable of using it as his own, usually far beyond the capabilities of the person or source of the concept. This is how he gained so many Stands within the story."
- 1,969
- 323
Is it NFL to think Kars can understand The Almighty and copy it?
- 19,467
- 3,907
He copied something that has Low 2-C AP as well as various other dangerous hax.
Similar threads
