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Potency, resistance, and no limits fallacies (Staff only)

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Firephoenixearl

Firephoenixearl

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It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this ability can nullify anything that falls within the phenomena their powers are made to counter. It is to be assumed that any negation power has its limitations based on the strongest thing it has nullified, and a character may be resistant to the ability (at least in one of its forms), preventing it from having its usual effects.

On the Power Null page there is this. And even admins have said that Power Null will not work on things that are stronger than what it has shown. I find this an extremely bad rule, for a couple of reasons:

  • We already assume that Hax > AP. Dura neg will work on anyone regardless of the potency of their durability. However we do not assume that Power Null will work on Soul Manipulation regardless of the level of soul manip without feats of being that strong? Why? It seems extremely contradictory to what we already do. We have also agreed before that within the dimensional limitations only Resistance can stop hax. So why do we not continue this policy?
  • It is impossible to evaluate between different types of hax. Every hax has it's own scale or meter that cannot be compared to any other hax. Some hax even lack a concept of "potency" outside of the dimensional one, some examples like Conceptual Manipulation or Probability Manipulation would be the cases here. There is no logical way to compare Probability Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, it is downright impossible. One is impossible to measure outside of dimensional scale and the level of percentage it can go to (example whether it can reach 100% and 0% or not) while the other is measured by the amount of people affected by the hax. Therefore it is logically impossible to conclude whether Power Null that worked on Probability Hax will work on Soul hax if the soul hax has a feat in the billions for example.
I took Power Null as an example, but this would affect the following hax:

among many other abilities. So solving this point is extremely important as it affects what could be 1/4 of the abilities in the wiki (all abilities that work on other abilities).
 
Even with the Dimensional Tiering restriction, assuming that these abilities have no upper limit in the Dimensional level is still a No Limits Fallacy (NLF).

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF)
This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

Example: "Itachi said that no one without a Mangekyou Sharingan can defeat him. Therefore he can beat all of DC, Marvel, DBZ, and Tenchi Muyo."

The person in this argument holds Itachi's statement to be absolute truth, ignoring the possibility that Itachi has no knowledge of certain enemies, or never expected to encounter them. The same can be said of Kishimoto: He never intended for his characters to be pitted in battle against characters from other works of fiction, so therefore statements like this do not hold true to other works of fiction necessarily. Furthermore, there is the possibility that in - universe, Itachi was lying, bluffing, misinformed, or deluded.
 
This is less of a problem when you analyze the nature of the power rather than its effect, if someone says its "invulnerable and immune" one needs to look what makes it that way, the most vague the explaination the more NLFish the statement.

And yes, the issue with dimensional powers is that it do not cover esoteric or animic powers (such soul, dream and perspective manipulation); in theory, tehy aren't immune to them if they have to statements about that.
 
For once, i agree with Earl.

Im not saying that we should scratch the NLF, but we are inconsistent in how we apply it. For example, no one asks for feats when it comes to Soul hax. Soul hax is soul hax, dosnt matter if youre 10B or 3A, if you lack the resistance you get screwed. But we dont do that for Power null.

Fact is: Hax is hax and should, outside of exotic ones, only adhere to dimensionality and resistance. Power null not working on stronger beings is not a inherent mechanic of power null but a specific weakness for that specific ability.

As such we either are consistent and put that warning on every ability or were consistent and scrap that part over Power null. Because Power null is hax like everyone else and the limits and what is reasonable and not should be debated out case by case.
 
Several wrongs do not make a right. NLF should apply to all abilities. That is rather self-evident. Sera does have a point in that we cannot spoon-feed even the simplest 1+1=2 over and over and over just because some people will not get it.
 
Is it several wrongs? The idea behind not using an upper limit based on 3-D durability is that hax by their very nature are supposed to bypass that durability. It's not just some dudes ignoring regulations regularly, there is actual logic behind why the powers are treated this way.
 
Ok several wrongs may not make a right. That's why im trying to make everything right. Saying "NLF should stay on Power Null" doesn't mean everything should stay like this. If we're applying NLF on hax based on potency we cannot cherry pick. Either all hax should abide by these rules or no hax should abide by these rules. I agree more with the latter because as Andy said Hax by nature negates durability and as such has no reason to abide by the laws of potency.

IIRC in a pretty early thread a lot of admins agreed that "Unless higher dimensionality is involved only resistance can stop hax, because hax by nature ignores durability that's why we have Resistance for Hax but not Resistance for AP". And it is a logical conclusion but now saying a bunch of hax unlike the rest have to abide by potency and durability seems contradictory.

There is also the potency comparison being impossible as i mentioned in the OP.
 
Look Ant, you already sound annoyed so i will keep this as short and reasonable as possible.

The problem here is not trying to ignore feats and stuff and to push everything to highest as it can get but the fact that we treat Power Null as the only one where highest shown feats applys. NO one questions whether or not you can soul hax anything ranging from human to star buster. This assumption is not NLF but plain logic, because physical stats wont protect your soul. The same should apply to Power Null. The same actually applys to all kind of hax.

And like i said, if a hax actually shows weaknesses like this, they are treated with that in mind. And yes, feats obviously matters. No one in their right mind would claim someone nulling simple elemental manipulation to be able to null full blown concept manipulation. But this is a case where people can reasonably debate it out.
 
There are certain hax that could actually be said to be influenced by AP

Attack Reflection, energy absorption, TKing internal organs etc should be capped by what AP they shown to deal with since they don't completely bypass the need to interact with opponent's AP/Dura but mind control, EE, spatial BFR could generally be assumed to ignore it

Which category power null falls into this I'm not sure
 
Assuming that any limited regular 3-D mortal can affect beings many degrees of infinity larger than them in all respects simply by using durability-bypassing soul hax and the like, is a massive NLF, yes. If it is necessary that we mention this in more powers and abilities pages, that is preferable to gathering lots of misunderstandings and illogical applications.

However, I am extremely distracted, tired, and overworked, so I do not have the energy to extensively argue about it.

It is extremely important that we avoid propagating notions of certain powers being completely limitless by nature though.

Given the above, I would much prefer if we close this thread, and not be forced to argue with time and energy that I do not have available to avoid very bad consequences for the reliability of the wiki.
 
Well we are talking about being in the same dimensional limitations. But if we have to go with everything by AP then there is not only the logic problem, but the comparisons will be a problem as well. 2 examples:

  • X character is 5-B in AP and soul haxed 100 5-B people instantly. Up to what level of AP can he soul hax? Can he soul hax someone who's 5-A or 4-A?
  • X Character nulled Conceptual Manipulation. Y character has galaxy level soul hax. Can X Nullify Y's soul hax?
 
@Ant Was that for me? If so I did not say that, I didn't explicitly say higher Ds would resist because I thought that was a given. I am only talking about AP and durability on the same dimensional level as the hax user.
 
Ant please, no one argued about that. That is an fully aceppted notion. We are talking about beings on the same plane of existence. No inifnites between them
 
To be fair is extremely unusual that a 10th dimensional beings or similar aren't related to any esoteric concepts, even when soul is a dimensionless concept (cuz no string theory talk, nor will talk, about spirits), one can't simply hit a higher dimensional being with it as 4D is already intangible to 3D beings.
 
Would it be ok to highlight this and make this staff only? This seems like an important issue about hax in general.
 
First Witch said:
Ant please, no one argued about that. That is an fully aceppted notion. We are talking about beings on the same plane of existence. No inifnites between them
Click to expand...
Even then, the jugments of the abilities is still based on Feats.

  • We already assume that Hax > AP. Dura neg will work on anyone regardless of the potency of their durability. However we do not assume that Power Null will work on Soul Manipulation regardless of the level of soul manip without feats of being that strong? Why? It seems extremely contradictory to what we already do. We have also agreed before that within the dimensional limitations only Resistance can stop hax. So why do we not continue this policy?
First, we judged Hax by feats not Potency. Hax > AP was never a rule. dimensional limitations only Resistance can stop hax point might be change with a new staff threads in the future to removed it.

  • It is impossible to evaluate between different types of hax. Every hax has it's own scale or meter that cannot be compared to any other hax. Some hax even lack a concept of "potency" outside of the dimensional one, some examples like Conceptual Manipulation or Probability Manipulation would be the cases here. There is no logical way to compare Probability Manipulation and Soul Manipulation, it is downright impossible. One is impossible to measure outside of dimensional scale and the level of percentage it can go to (example whether it can reach 100% and 0% or not) while the other is measured by the amount of people affected by the hax. Therefore it is logically impossible to conclude whether Power Null that worked on Probability Hax will work on Soul hax if the soul hax has a feat in the billions for example.
Haxs were always judged by Feats. We don't scaled unrelated haxes's feats to each other so this point is a non-issue, in my view.
 
@Eli

Yes i do not see how that defeats my point. You did not adress that we apply Hax > AP on some hax, but we don't on some others.

Yes but we have to scale unrelated hax if we wanna apply this change. Or the potency will be for naught. If we cannot find a scale which applies to all hax Power Null cannot be used in vs debates. Because it will more often than not have undeterminable potency from having it's best hax be of another kind. To apply potency in this case would need comparisons to scale from, however comparing hax is like comparing Newtons to Meters or Joules to Om.
 
Okay, my apologies if I misunderstood. As I mentioned earlier, I am currently overexerted and spread too thin to many different tasks at once.

Regardless, I do not think that power nullification, power copying, or similar, should automatically be assumed to work on characters with a universal scale of power just because it worked on characters with the power to blow up buildings.
 
It should not work on beings that totally outclass them if it's not stated or have feats. Example: X character has in stats Resistance to Time Manipulation because he resisted Y character Time Stop but then Z character comes and use Time Stop and it works. It's all a matter of potency. The character may be resistant to a ability but someone with a higher potency can bypass it.
 
@Earl

I do not have the energy to deal with this issue blowing up any more than it already has. I think that our standards are mostly fine as they are.
 
@Zara You totally missunderstood the point. It was all a case of "if they don't have resistance". Right now, according to the rules. Even if Character Z has no resistance to Power Null what so ever, if he has a planet level magic, then Character X cannot power null Character Z without having feats of being capable of nulling planet level magic before.

@Ant

Well it is ok. I meant since you're overworked and all, i thought maybe you wanted to let the rest of the staff decide then you can just come in as a last confirmation. I meant it as a way to reduce your amount of work.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Elizhaa said:
I do think the current standards of Feats and No Limits Fallacy (NLF) for Hax are fine, as well.
Click to expand...
They are inconsistent among hax though. That is the problem here. Some are assumed to work endlessly within the dimensional limitations, while some are not.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by endlessly because it is really ambiguous?
 
Without resistance being involved abilities like Soul manip, mind manip, durability negation, Existence Erasure, reality warping, Causality manip, probability manip, concept manip, fate manip etc just to mention a few will work endlessly within a dimensional level. By that i mean if a user of any of the aforementioned abilities is even as low as 10-C, their abilities are assumed to work even against a 3-A character, as long as no resistances are involved. That's what i mean by endlessly within a dimensional scale.
 
Well, I don't know. Maybe the staff forum would be better suited for this, but it may be too late at this point.
 
I do remember Saikou speaking on this topic a while ago. Maybe you should ask him to come here.
 
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