Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[TheKingStrategist13]

If being able to copy perfectly was enough to count for Skill, then wouldn't Ditto just be Number one period? It's much more in depth and complex than just being able to copy other's, though that is a part of it. It's about Adaptability, Technique, Growth, and many other factor's. Kenshiro seems to mainly be a Fist Fighter from a glance at his Profile- Sure, he can prolly copy, say, a Bow User's techniques, but it seems like for the most part, he's known for punching stuff.

And even assuming he can count for Misc- Are you gunning to take a spot from someone else, or just leave him as, I believe 3rd, on the list?

 

[azontr]

1. Ditto is not a fair example as Ditto does not copy things through martial skill, it's an ability.

2. Nobody said copying was everything there was to skill, you dorkmuffin.

Is all I have to say.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I'm simply asking if they have anything else to back up Kenshiro beyond his copying. Perhaps I worded it poorly, but I'm simply asking if they have a more elaborate argument.

 

[azontr]

I don't believe @Epiccheev was attempting to make an argument, if that's who you were addressing. I interpreted it as he was simply saying anything Kenshiro has that isn't Ki or Supernatural related is fair game for skill, which happens to include skill copying.

I see your point, though.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

It's possible they weren't, and if they weren't, then I apologize to them if I seemed aggressive/confrontational or anything of the sort when trying to address their message.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I don't think Kenshiro being able to copy a technique is really well, ki related, his adaptability is just aboslutely cracked. (Muso Tensei is also a thing, but I don't know if that counts unfortunately. ignoring the NEP it gives Kenshiro, he actually does use the skills and techniques of his fallen rivals and allies who are also really skilled)

Also let's not forget the fact that Hokuto Shinken is like, an 1,800 year old martial art that no one can simply just "master", he has been trained since childhood as well.

His intelligence section on the profile has some great skill related stuff as well like "He has uncanny precision, to the point of being able to strike a pressure point as small as the tip of a pin with a strand of hair."

So yeah, most of Ken's skill doesn't come from ki.

Also don't get the comparison between Ditto and Kenshiro? Ditto just copies the actual thing it's fighting? While Kenshiro just learns after seeing it, nothing like Ditto

 

[azontr]

(Muso Tensei is also a thing, but I don't know if that counts unfortunately.

It doesn't.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

It doesn't.

Had a feeling it didn't, either way I guess most of the other stuff is fair game?

 

[azontr]

The other stuff you mentioned barring blatant supernatural shit is fair game for evaluation, yeah.

 

[Bobsican]

Ditto also copies the techniques the opponent has learned, but at the same time Ditto lacks the skill to chain them, "upgrade" them or use them in creative ways, a better example in that area would be Kirby or Rimuru, I suppose.

Also...

I've added Pissxas to the list with Sion.

 

[Bobsican]

As the thread is dying anyways, would it be worthwhile to still argue that Roxas is more skilled than Kojirou, or no?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

In the case of snipers who use magic to shoot, do they have no possible position?

 

[azontr]

As the thread is dying anyways, would it be worthwhile to still argue that Roxas is more skilled than Kojirou, or no?

I am in the exact opposite of a mood to argue that icl

 

[azontr]

In the case of snipers who use magic to shoot, do they have no possible position?

They'd be in ranged obviously but we have no magic category

 

[Bobsican]

Just add one for anything else

 

[azontr]

magic is hard to quantify in terms of skill tho

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

It's just a guy shooting magic with a wand.

 

[Bobsican]

Just mention "anything else", magic is just a method over a weapon in itself.

 

[azontr]

so should I just make a category in ranged for "magic users", then? It seems to uncommon to be necessary.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Just mention "anything else", magic is just a method over a weapon in itself.

This is good

 

[Bobsican]

so should I just make a category in ranged for "magic users", then? It seems to uncommon to be necessary.

I meant to add a section for "anything else" in that section, unless you think it'd be better to just leave it to the Misc section at that point.

 

[azontr]

Honestly, they could prolly just go in misc, but that'd be kinda misleading, so, if yall feel like I need to make a category for "anything else", I can

 

[Bobsican]

I'd be in support of that, yeah.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Magic users, would be neat. Sypha from Castlevania would be a good contender with her creativity and use of magic.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Has no one nominated him for a shield user yet? If not then I nominate him for the same

 

[Twellas]

Yeah, I propose Kenshiro for whatever category he's eligible in, I might go over what he can do, becuase the intelligence section definitely doesn't do him justice.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

A character launches an danmaku with thousands of projectiles on an enemy

That enemy analyzes and learns how to counter all the projectiles at once with a single hand movement

Does this mean that the enemy is capable of predicting thousands of moves?

 

[azontr]

Yeah.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Nice
About It again
What matters more? The number of moves or the layers of AP?

 

[azontr]

Both of them matter, but usually it's layers.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Prolly depends on the gap in ap tbh

 

[Bobsican]

I'd avoid focusing too much on AP as otherwise this boils down to tier 10s jumping to tier 1 for reasons unrelated to skill, for example

 

[First_Witch]

You do know AP refers to Analytical Prediction in this context right

 

[Bobsican]

Nope, lmao.

 

[azontr]

Common Bob L.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Perhaps you could have clarified better, as generally AP refers to Attack Potency on the Wiki. It's easy for anyone to look at it in passing and think, "Oh, that's AP, not related to Skill", instead of looking closer at it and working out that it must be something else. This isn't to call anyone dumb or thoughtless for thinking as such, it's just that it'd be easy to mix up.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, I propose Kenshiro for whatever category he's eligible in, I might go over what he can do, becuase the intelligence section definitely doesn't do him justice.

Kenshiro was already proposed, but no one wants to talk over what spot he'd have in the bare handed category.

 

[Twellas]

He'd have to be in the Multi-Faceted Martial Artists section due to how Hokuto works, I'll just lay down some of the stuff he does
- As a kid he could casually fold 10 Nanto masters

• Hokuto Shinken allows the user to completely master any martial art he sees being performed (he doesn't need to fight against it), such mastery lets him acquire abilities he hasn't even seen, gives him complete understanding over how the martial art itself functions (even better than the original user) and parts of its backstory, also allows the user to completely precog said martial art to the point of statuing an opponent who he could barely react to, Hokuto practitioners can "purify" the martial art by removing the negative thoughts of the original user
• Scales massively above the Colonel, who mastered "every method of killing there is", which would include both martial arts and weapons, since he's a soldier and uses knives, Raoh, even before going on a spree to master "hundreds of martial arts" had already mastered almost every martial art, HNK is a verse that would have AT LEAST twice the amount of martial arts as the real world, since Nanto by itself is divided in 108 different martial arts, which Ken is confirmed to have mastered entirely, Kasumi has mastered martial arts as a whole
• Has a ridiculous amount of ways to precog the opponent: Can precog via reading eye and muscle movements, via the movement of air around his opponent, via analysing the rhythm of your breathing after just 2 moves, via seeing the moment in which the opponent channels energy into his next blow and they can have entire mind-battles where they read two steps ahead of the opponent; in turn, he can resist precog via both erasing all intention from his attack and mind (He can still precog you if you do it tho) and by having an "unconscious fist" devoid of worldly thought, which is impossible to precog, this is different from things like subconscious reflexes, which are easily precog'd by Hokuto users and considered fodder
• Can find a perfect counter to any technique after seeing it once, which includes things like being able to block an attack that could duraneg him, find a counter to ki-draining, being able to locate an attack that's being thrown inside a space-warped pocket dimension or finding a way to negate the effects of being thrown in a pocket dimension without gravity by rotating at high speeds and using centrifugal force to actually find his footing.
• Even after being completely memory wiped to the point of not even remembering his name, Ken can instinctively use Hokuto Shinken and target an opponent's hidden attack in order to counter it
• Hokuto Shinken is a martial art with infinite fighting variations that can't be mastered by people on the skill level of the Colonel; it incorporates the moves from every martial art it fights and it's been involved in countless conflicts throughout history, it even split itself into defferent branches just so they could develop separately and then fight in order to feed Hokuto Shinken new techniques, both Ken and Kasumi attained the very essence of Hokuto Shinken
• Toki's Soft Fist allows the user to completely negate his opponent's strength and use it against him, Toki can also bend fate via his skill/talent
• Mastered Nanto Suichoken at least to Rei's level, Rei in his younger days could slice ligaments and tendons so finely and precisely that an average human could be completely unscathed if they stayed still for just 3 seconds, because the cut would heal; even microscopic damage to ligaments takes around 6 weeks to heal
• Can completely disappear from Shuu's sight/perception, Shuu can sense life force from hundreds of meters away and "see with his mind's eye", You can't sneak up on Ken, no matter how quiet you are
• He has a perfect guard with no opening whatsoever, Kaiser, who scales significantly below Ken in skill, can physically see evvery possible blind spot on a person's body as a dot that lights up when said blid spot is open, Shachi, who similarly is nowhere near as skilled as Ken, can purposefully open up a blind spot just to punish his opponent
• Kasumi is able to identify a person who touched a piece of chalk several minutes prior by discerning the percentage of bodily acid contained in the minuscule amount of sweat left by the fingertips of the person
• Ken can use a strand of hair to hit a pressure point the size of a needle mid-fight, can stop hundreds of arrows at the same time and throw them back, head-shotting the archers with one arrow each

And believe me, I could go on, but I stop here. As for his spot, I don't know, I honestly feel like 90% of Karate Kid's feats are not skill at all and him just blatantly not belonging in the tier he's in/using duraneg/having techniques that surpass his AP, which has no bearing on combat skill, I feel like what I showed here eclipses whatever has been brought up for him (that I saw, at least) in terms of actual skill besides the amount of martial arts mastered, which is guess all of the galaxy's martial arts>however many martial arts Ken knows

 

[azontr]

I personally don't mind Kenshiro taking Karate Kid's spot, but, that's something @Armorchompy can contest if he wants.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Looking at the two, I'd personally lean towards Kenshiro, but let's wait and see what the defense has got.