Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[Shmooply]

Rookie mistake.

 

[Bobsican]

Leny is quite a ton stronger than Sion actually.

I guess I'll just point back to the Xion stuff then, others are welcome to evaluate and all

If you agree that this is not a good argument, I agree that this is not a good argument, then why are we arguing over it.

Then it can just be dropped, be my guest

You said that, not me capiche everyone?

Uh... looking at the others comments after that I wonder what unintended implications I'm doing, English isn't my native language after all
Worst I could see is the implication that Sion and the one in the 4th spot should swap places, but I don't need to explain that'd just be my own opinion and it would be far from enough to be consensus to actually do that so far.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... bump.

 

[azontr]

I keep forgetting this exists tbh.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Fair lol

 

[Bobsican]

I recall Witch has already said that he'd rather others evaluate the stuff as he'd rather be actually getting stuff done on the site first for Knight Run, so uh... give some thoughts.

As far as standards are concerned Roxas appears better at the moment out of having proper scans to back-up the skill claims over relying too much on lore and little else like Sion.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

I may as well go ahead and pull arguments for the one in the 4th spot, I'd like some heat here fr.

For starters, I'm noticing that Sasaki is more skilled than Sion, as many here would already expect, his case is far more well-supported and there's little complains I can do here for the arguments provided in the OP's link to his skill sheet.

Anyways, Sasaki has plenty of experience as far I can see (And the page probably should have an updated intelligence rating as currently it's really poor explanation/rating-wise over there), but even so, I think an argument can be legitimately made for Roxas here, although I'd be more comfortable arguing for Sora but Azontr sadly wouldn't let me do that.

First of all, experience in itself is a quite variable thing, and it's very clear Roxas has way more experience on fields outside "regular" armed combat, as much as by being a part of Sora for presumably multiple months (namely from KHII to KHIII, I could explain further, but this is one of the most annoying parts of KH lore to go on to anyone not into the series, unless someone really wants it or something) has made him experience about anything relevant here as well, so I'll just link my skill list for Sora. And yes, it makes sense to scale skill this way as much as Sora inherited skills from Roxas like dual wielding and seemingly skateboarding, plus he has Sora's body and soul, even if he inherited the appearance of Ventus for other reasons as said before.

With all of that being said, Roxas basically has experience on airbone battles, for example, he has fought Xemnas, who can do a dome of lasers while also dual wielding himself at the same time and constantly pushes around the opponent into disfavorable positions (I'm not linking the Roxas version of the fight as it was "simplified" for the sake of gameplay), having to deal with Saix at the same time only turning this even crazier, all of this while also forcing to deal with "unblockable" attacks, and so it seems more impressive than the thing Sasaki had with Poseidon out of practically being the same feat in that one part but with considerably more factors at play to deal with at once.

There's also more experience in ranged battles here as far I can tell, several characters in KH can use elemental (aka, ranged) magic, and Roxas isn't the exception either, having witnessed while still being a part of Sora opponents like Xigbar and Riku Replica at the same time. Xigbar is someone that has been alive across seven generations and was one of the ancient Keyblade Masters, and even by giving his Keyblade away for plot reasons, he still managed to master dual-wielding laser-firing arrowguns, and his control over space further complements it to remain airbone himself as if the air was a floor to him, teleport around, disrupt the space that opponents can travel on, and creating portals to fire from multiple different angles, meanwhile Riku Replica just fills the whole area with explosive hazards and spams teleportation to attack.

And before anyone says "but Sasaki could copy the skill of all his verse" or so from what I'm understanding in his skill list, I don't need to explain that this "copying" basically requires hax at that point (unless he simply already saw "everyone" in the past? That'd be implied with how he still only has Extended Melee Range), but even then, skill copying is overrated and what's actually done with that and how others act to it is what really matters, but that being said, I think I've already illustrated that Roxas has a quite different skillset from Sasaki and overall brings some legitimate arguments to the table. And don't make me start with how an inferior copy to the (current) Sora (and by extension Roxas) could body someone that knows virtually everything in the multiverse (by being the physical form of a copy of its records) while being weaker himself.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

First of all, experience in itself is a quite variable thing, and it's very clear Roxas has way more experience on fields outside "regular" armed combat, as much as by being a part of Sora for presumably multiple months (namely from KHII to KHIII, I could explain further, but this is one of the most annoying parts of KH lore to go on to anyone not into the series, unless someone really wants it or something) has made him experience about anything relevant here as well, so I'll just link my skill list for Sora. And yes, it makes sense to scale skill this way as much as Sora inherited skills from Roxas like dual wielding and seemingly skateboarding, plus he has Sora's body and soul, even if he inherited the appearance of Ventus for other reasons as said before.

With all of that being said, Roxas basically has experience on airbone battles, for example, he has fought Xemnas, who can do a dome of lasers while also dual wielding himself at the same time and constantly pushes around the opponent into disfavorable positions (I'm not linking the Roxas version of the fight as it was "simplified" for the sake of gameplay), having to deal with Saix at the same time only turning this even crazier, all of this while also forcing to deal with "unblockable" attacks, and so it seems more impressive than the thing Sasaki had with Poseidon out of practically being the same feat in that one part but with considerably more factors at play to deal with at once.

Hm, if we're going to include experiences via Sora, wouldn't it also be important to mention that, through Sora, he fought, and defeated, A Law Manipulating, Time Bar Inducing Gambler, while also being pestered by a Death Wielding Scythe Master and a Lightning Wielding Ninja Like Character, the last two having more tag team skills than the rest of the Organization, barring the actual Main 3 Xehanorts, and even after defeating the Gambler he still had to deal with the other two tag teaming him and Mickey. (Here for the watered down fight, though it's a less accurate representation)?

 

[azontr]

Bump.

I may as well go ahead and pull arguments for the one in the 4th spot, I'd like some heat here fr.

For starters, I'm noticing that Sasaki is more skilled than Sion, as many here would already expect, his case is far more well-supported and there's little complains I can do here for the arguments provided in the OP's link to his skill sheet.

Anyways, Sasaki has plenty of experience as far I can see (And the page probably should have an updated intelligence rating as currently it's really poor explanation/rating-wise over there), but even so, I think an argument can be legitimately made for Roxas here, although I'd be more comfortable arguing for Sora but Azontr sadly wouldn't let me do that.

First of all, experience in itself is a quite variable thing, and it's very clear Roxas has way more experience on fields outside "regular" armed combat, as much as by being a part of Sora for presumably multiple months (namely from KHII to KHIII, I could explain further, but this is one of the most annoying parts of KH lore to go on to anyone not into the series, unless someone really wants it or something) has made him experience about anything relevant here as well, so I'll just link my skill list for Sora. And yes, it makes sense to scale skill this way as much as Sora inherited skills from Roxas like dual wielding and seemingly skateboarding, plus he has Sora's body and soul, even if he inherited the appearance of Ventus for other reasons as said before.

With all of that being said, Roxas basically has experience on airbone battles, for example, he has fought Xemnas, who can do a dome of lasers while also dual wielding himself at the same time and constantly pushes around the opponent into disfavorable positions (I'm not linking the Roxas version of the fight as it was "simplified" for the sake of gameplay), having to deal with Saix at the same time only turning this even crazier, all of this while also forcing to deal with "unblockable" attacks, and so it seems more impressive than the thing Sasaki had with Poseidon out of practically being the same feat in that one part but with considerably more factors at play to deal with at once.

There's also more experience in ranged battles here as far I can tell, several characters in KH can use elemental (aka, ranged) magic, and Roxas isn't the exception either, having witnessed while still being a part of Sora opponents like Xigbar and Riku Replica at the same time. Xigbar is someone that has been alive across seven generations and was one of the ancient Keyblade Masters, and even by giving his Keyblade away for plot reasons, he still managed to master dual-wielding laser-firing arrowguns, and his control over space further complements it to remain airbone himself as if the air was a floor to him, teleport around, disrupt the space that opponents can travel on, and creating portals to fire from multiple different angles, meanwhile Riku Replica just fills the whole area with explosive hazards and spams teleportation to attack.

And before anyone says "but Sasaki could copy the skill of all his verse" or so from what I'm understanding in his skill list, I don't need to explain that this "copying" basically requires hax at that point (unless he simply already saw "everyone" in the past? That'd be implied with how he still only has Extended Melee Range), but even then, skill copying is overrated and what's actually done with that and how others act to it is what really matters, but that being said, I think I've already illustrated that Roxas has a quite different skillset from Sasaki and overall brings some legitimate arguments to the table. And don't make me start with how an inferior copy to the (current) Sora (and by extension Roxas) could body someone that knows virtually everything in the multiverse (by being the physical form of a copy of its records) while being weaker himself.

A large portion of this isn't even skill, Bob. Its just spatial manipulation and bullshit about knowing everything in the multiverse.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

A large portion of this isn't even skill, Bob. Its just spatial manipulation and bullshit about knowing everything in the multiverse.

???
This is him talking about how Roxas, via experiencing things through Sora, had the Skill to take on High Level Space Warper's who could alter the battle field with ease, and how a inferior copy of Sora and by extension Roxas beat someone who knows practically everything there is to know. He's basically saying that even when the terrain is altered to be disadvantageous, and when fighting a talented Sniper who alter's the terrain as such, he still has the skill to take them down.

 

[azontr]

how a inferior copy of Sora and by extension Roxas beat someone who knows practically everything there is to know.

That's not a quantifiable skill feat lol.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Skill isn't something easily quantified anyway, going off the redundancy of Skill chains in this thread.

 

[azontr]

Keyword "easily". Which means it is still quantifiable, and we've quantified it many times.

Shit like "beating someone who can see infinite futures" or "dodging attacks that spawn on you" or yada yada crap like that isn't skill. Unfortunately, that's something we call bullshit. Because if we're thinking logically, even within the realms of fiction, beating someone who with precognition like that through sheer martial skill isn't possible.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

And does getting stronger through fighting in your own mind make sense? By projecting a beings strength into your thoughts, and thinking of yourself beating them, is that skill? Hell no tbh. That's more bullshit than fighting someone with Precognition, a quantifiable ability in fiction.

 

[azontr]

I never said it made sense, but it's still an ability that's somewhat routed in logic despite it's outlandish nature. It's still a martial ability that doesn't dive into insane supernatural territory. I also don't know what the 2nd example your using is.

Beating somebody who literally knows everything there is to know about you through sheer skill literally is impossible through simply being more skilled than them. It cannot be done logically.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Yet, it is done. There is no logic in being able to exceed someone simply through imagining yourself defeating them. As much as defeating someone who should know everything about you is flawed, defeating someone through imagining yourself defeating them is just as flawed. You didn't quantify skill, you quantified something that cannot be quantified, because it has Zero logic in it.

 

[azontr]

You're not getting my point. I'm not saying that Kojiro's Thousand Image Defense is logical. I'm saying that it's not illogical enough for us to consider it invalid. It's still, in the end, an ability explained through non-supernatural, non-cosmic means. There are multiple Martial Arts that seem supernatural but are really just the product of illogical levels of skill. Take the Niko Style from Kengan Ashura, for example, it does things that seem illogical or "magic-like" but in the end its all grounded in a pseudo-reason/explained through normal Martial Arts phenomena.

On the other hand, things like you're trying to propose require blatant supernatural abilities to counteract. Saying it's done through skill isn't quantifiable for the purposes of this thread, as it's literally not logically possible at all to do it with skill. That's an objective fact.

 

[First_Witch]

Huh, guess there is merit in writing that Skill Manifesto...

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So you're basically saying "Your feat makes less logical sense"
Yet, there is no indication that any of the inferior Sora's Hax had won his fight. Not is there any indication he was physically more capable, as the form his opponent took was that of Riku, who is consistently more physically capable Pre-KHIII. There is literally no other explanation. And to better clarify, the opponent in question was the physical Avatar of Jimminy's Journal, a Journal which extensively chronicled Sora's Skills and Feats during KHI, Re:COM, and KHII. What he meant by knowing virtually everything, is that the book chronicled essentially everything about the Multiverse as far as Sora's Journey was concerned. In essence, the feat Bob brought up was less of them knowing everything, and more so them knowing Sora like the back of their hand. Even so, the inferior Sora overcame this, adapting to beat them anyway.

 

[azontr]

Yeah, that's my point, the only explanation that you could give for Sora winning the fight, "skill", makes no sense, so we can't consider it valid. You don't have any argument against the feat itself being unquantifiable than "skill is the only way it could've happened".

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

How does it make no sense
Just because someone know's everything about a character does not mean that character cannot win because of skill- Adaptation and Evolution are directly a aspect of Skill. The simple matter of the fact is, he Out Adapted and Out Grew what the Journal could know. That's textbook skill right there, and does not need any sort of Supernatural Reasoning or Abilities. The only way he could have beaten his opponent is because he had the skill to Out Grow them. Likewise, previously, the logic was implemented that the only way Sion could have defeated a opponent of her's was that she Out Grew them. And likewise, the logic behind Sasaki is that somehow, he was able to Mentally Out Grow the foes he imagined in his mind. The definition of Quantifiable is, and I quote, " able to be expressed or measured as a quantity.", something which what Sora did can be. It's simply measured as him out growing the amount of Knowledge the Journal had on him.

 

[azontr]

Going to school right now, so can't respond properly now.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Have a good day then, till later.

 

[Jackpact]

NGL, Venom W is looking like an L now.

Anyway, there's a different from beating someone that "know everything about the current you" and someone that "know everything there's possible to know about you", the previous is possible while the later is impossible, the only way for the later to be possible is that they can't keep up with the you that have evolved, which at that point is just not that impressive or good.

 

[Bobsican]

Uh... y'all are focusing too much on the Data-Riku stuff, I just meant to kinda bring it up just in case, I'm not a fan of "skill" feats that boil down to nigh-omniscience, as how much it covers and what can be done with it are two very different things, especially for combat purposes.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

You're right. I think I got a little too, heated, per say, trying to defend it, and lost sight of the rest of your argument. I extend my apologies, particularly to azontr.

 

[azontr]

I didn't even read most of Bob's argument tbh lol. It was like 7 in the morning so I wasn't thinking to hard.

 

[Bobsican]

How about now?

 

[azontr]

Literally just got home so I'll respond in a bit

 

[Bobsican]

Anyways, would it be fine to push Roxas for the 5th spot for now? There doesn't appear to be any opposition right now.

 

[azontr]

I mean pretty sure Witch still opposes that? Lol. Nobody ever conceded that Roxas was more skilled than Sion.

 

[Bobsican]

Witch has already said he'd rather everyone else evaluate the matter as he'd be busy fixing Knight Run stuff on the site (especially with the wide lack of scans for the most part), so uh... give your opinion on the matter or something.

 

[azontr]

IDFK I ain't reading all that shit lmao.

Gimme a TL;DR.

 

[Bobsican]

Sion has next to no scans to display most of the claimed skill stuff, but beyond that the skill fields of both are barely directly relatable at all, so I can't really summarize that part.

 

[azontr]

I mean nobody ever really said scans were required? There are plenty of submissions here with good elaborations but no scans. I don't expect everyone to have like 50+ scans on the ready all the time or whatever.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, they do definitely help to evaluate, but Sion's case is really poor as most arguments for her rely on scaling chains and kinda short development timeframes, which means little without proper details on how battles go for the most part to begin with.

 

[azontr]

And what exactly is Roxas' case.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm bored, I'm going to argue for Roxas again as I'm noticing most of the arguments for him were terrible and could be substantiated far more, plus some of Sion's stuff isn't even skill for the purposes in here.

Accelerated Development:

- With only about a year of adventures across the multiverse and with next to no training besides his own, Roxas quickly went from the weakest Organization XIII member to one of the strongest.

General Skills and Moveset:

- Roxas has a large variety of techniques (explanation video here) that he can do with the Keyblade for offensive purposes, of note is that while he started as merely wielding a single Keyblade, eventually he awakens the capability to dual wield them, and does so very well, seen in cases like Roxas using this to manage a crowd of high-level Heartless. I should reiterate the dual wielding part, as that's a really notable feat in coordination skill as stated here. Sora could also deflect an omnidirectional danmaku alongside Riku shortly after, so it'd be fair to say Roxas is around that level.

- Just like Sora, Roxas also shares a notable amount of mobility options, such as the capability to perform multiple aerial dashes, recover quickly after being sent flying, quick movement to behind a target, and flight while reacting to multiple hazards in real time.

- As it was mentioned before, Roxas could keep up with an opponent even after having his weapons stolen, with the guy in question triple wielding against him, yet Sora eventually just gets overwhelmed and would have lost were it not for him surprising Roxas by teleporting his Keyblade back, Sora himself is notable as is out of a good chunk of what's mentioned here in that period of time.

- Lore-wise, Roxas is made of Sora's body and soul, and so he'd inherently get the same physical attributes, even if he inherited the appearance of Ventus out of lore reasons. Even so, Roxas could keep up with Saix, who can do stuff like this and has overwhelmed Sora as well. Beings like Roxas are regarded in the Age of Fairytales (which inherit his power, and are already aware of Keyblade Masters themselves) as "unimaginable forces of the future".

- Xion as a whole deserves a mention as Roxas was capable of defeating her even while being up to 4 times weaker than her, and she does stuff like this, which would require a quite high level of skill to keep up with out of the sheer beam spam and surrounding hazards at the same time.

Intelligence and Information Analysis:

- Has met tens of cultures across the multiverse, and has been able to do undercover work within them for nearly a year.

- Like several other characters, Roxas has the innate ability to see the remaining health of the opponent, and even has the sense to tell where the opponent is even if he's not directly seeing it.

Instinctive Reaction:

- Can seemingly instinctively block and dodge attacks.

- Per the above showcases, Roxas has shown the capability to react to attacks from behind with no prior in-universe warning and plenty of teleport-based or "instant" attacks as well, let alone while also having to worry about several waves of energy.

----

Now, I'm going to debunk some of the arguments used for Sion, as frankly some are either seemingly unquantificable out of no visuals being shown or aren't really significant skill feats or the like to begin with.


Meh, with all the given context Sion reflecting back half of a shockwave is just hax, or otherwise just a (minor for skill measuring IMO) feat unrelated to her health. The health arguments as a whole isn't even usable for skill measuring purposes as that's literally just a stamina/will feat, as much as type 2 immortality isn't skill.

This is the only thing that's valid here, but even so it's hard to compare to viably dual wielding.

Uh... no, KHII Sora doesn't even has hax to begin with, although I can agree on leaving arguments regarding hearts at a side as they're irrelevant for skill purposes here. I'm also not a fan of scaling skill as it doesn't work like AP and it can easily lead to inflated results, especially when no visuals are shown of the battles regarding Sion so far to evaluate.

As implied at the end of my sort of skill list for Roxas, Roxas is regarded as a gifted Keyblade wielder since hundreds of years ago across the multiverse, already putting him above the likes of ancient Keyblade Masters that could see the future in which he appears.

I'll reiterate that I'm not a fan myself of scaling chains for skill, especially not without visuals to back them up, as much as a ton of scaling doesn't give a proper "skill ceiling" to evaluate in itself.

Technically Roxas isn't even two years old, and he already managed to do far more than Sion presumably did in her first two years.

I hope the stuff at the start addresses this better.

I'm not sure how Clint's is better? As far I can tell they're comparable if anything here.

I guess this is valid, but as said before I'm not how comparable this'd be skill wise to dual wielding.

I'd rather avoid arguments that rely too much on this kind of lore as they're rather irrelevant to actually displayed feats, as much as any random timeframe doesn't correlate too well to a skill level.

Overall, Sion has some notable statements and the like, but a lack of scans on this regard in terms of how they are in practice, combined with relying a lot on big words from lore and timeframes makes me not be too much of a fan to Sion's placement, so I'm going to re-nominate Roxas.

This, probably also what I sent to challenge the 4th spot too TBH

 

[First_Witch]

Well, they do definitely help to evaluate, but Sion's case is really poor as most arguments for her rely on scaling chains and kinda short development timeframes, which means little without proper details on how battles go for the most part to begin with.

Okay what? Did you just dismiss Sions Skill mimicry, Martial arts, senses, acrobatics, body control and accelerated development as "scaling chains"??? What is this slander? Okay yeah no, I take shit back, i'm fiercly against Roxas being even compareable. Sion completly outperforms in most categories. And in the categories she dosnt, there is barely a gap

 

[Bobsican]

Nah, most of that either was just seemingly left for others to evaluate (the body control is not combat skill to begin with as I've argued multiple times) or seemingly left as comparable or so (senses). Accelerated development was already deemed as kinda comparable and is covered in the "short development timeframes" part.

I suppose mimicry wasn't discussed on my part, but to be fair that wasn't particularly brought up in the previous discussion that was up on the matter comparing thw two, and even so a lack of scans to see how effective/notable it is in practice is lacking as far I can see in the skill list, the same also applies to acrobatics (which wasn't discussed respectively either).