Warcraft: Sargeras being overhyped.

[Kronzz]

I'm not sure which board this post belongs, so I'm putting it here in case someone can edit the page read it. As stated, Sargeras page is being massively overhyped. There is no way he is anywhere close to Tier 2-A. He isn't even close to 3-A (Universe burster), much less Multiversal level. There were plenty of misunderstandings in the page, such as:

1) Attack Potency: "Multiverse level+ (Stronger than Aman'thul, who created the concept of time across infinite universes)."

Firstly, Amanthul didn't create concept of time accross infinite universes. The infinite universes were created as a result of the clash between two cosmic forces - the Light and the Void (pretty much the equivalent of a multiversal big bang). The Titans - including Aman'thul - were born in the universes much later. Aman'thul DOES have power over time, but that power was limited as stated by the developers. For example, he couldn't even foresee the details of the Hour of Twilight (he knew something bad would happen thousands years in the future, but didn't know exactly what would happen). Since the Titans are all dead (or in a dormant state inside the Keepers), we have no feat whatsoever of Aman'thul's power - still, there has been no one slowing / hastening / stopping time on a multiversal scale in WoW so far (the best multiversal feat for time-related in WoW was just travelling into past alternate timelines in alternate universe(s), other feats were just time manipulation on specific area / characters). Assuming Aman'thul's power has no limit is just NLF.

Sargeras' ultimate goal was to destroy all life in the universe. If his attack was on universal / multiversal level, the story would have been over a long time ago. He'd be on Multi-Galaxy at best, judging by his battle with the Pantheon.

2) Speed: Massively FTL+ (Traveled across the Universe) | Immeasurable (Comparable to Aman'thul, who created time)

There hasn't been any indication that Sargeras is at FTL speed yet (travelling accross the universe shouldn't immediately mean MFTL+ speed). One of the reason he hasn't reached Azeroth yet was because it was physically too far for him to reach, after all (in Sargeras' words, it'd take ages to get there). And again, Aman'thul didn't create time & his time manipulation power isn't omnipotent. There is no indication or feat that Aman'thul could reach anywhere near infinite speed.

3) Durability: At least Multi-Galaxy level | Multiverse level+ (Could take a beating from Aman'thul)

Similar to above point. Pretty sure he isn't on multiverse+ level. Multi-Galaxy level at best, maybe.


All in all, Sargeras can be 3-B. However, he is nowhere near 3-A, much less 2-A

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

In all honesty, I agree, and disagree with this post.

We don't know sargeras' true power. Infact, he killed the pantheon since HOW LONG again? So, basicly..who knows? Maybe he's gotten stronger, weaker, lore knows.

If you read the illidan novel "Illidan saw a vision where there were infinite universes, and in every universes that popped, the legion would invade it. And not matter who tried to defend, the legion would just take it over". Infact, Vandel "Illidans first dh...I think", saw a vision of sargeras destroying COUNTLESS worlds in the great dark (Most likely even stars).

So...i'd say put em at around 3-B/2-A still. Just because he OPs his own legion...by....alot.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

Ok, let me just chat about each and every aspect

1. Aman'thul didn't create the realities, however...he's likely the main guardian of em. Remember, the titans go have different powers, and if the eye of aman'thul is a "Time" controlling thing, then it's possible that he's been likely just "Protecting/guarding" the timelines. Even though he's not the creator, he's high up there.

2. Now, i can agree with you on a standpoint. However, the only reason as to why he's not summoned yet is this:

A. Azeroth is likely to release VERY soon, and with the old gods at bay, they'll likely need a summon.

B. If the legion were to summon sargeras NOW, then..they would. However, with the army of light pushing them back, and the fact that we exist, it's just taking a little longer than usual.

3. Just gonna let this one slide..cause..nothing really much to talk about here.

 

[Kronzz]

Yes, it's true that we don't know exactly how strong Sargeras is / was. However, I believe that isn't the ground to just assume he is at multiversal+ level (especially with the lack of feats or implications of just universal level). In fact, so far, it wouldn't make sense if he was.

Before Sargeras attempted to go to Azeroth though the portal the first time during WoTA, his goal was to destroy all life in the universe to cleanse it off the corruption of the Void. He hoped that life can appear from nothing again, but also believed that - in case life wouldn't reappear - an empty universe would still better than one corrupted by the Void. If Sargeras is anywhere near a universal burster, much less multiversal, he wouldn't need to go through the universe destroying one / some worlds at a time. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, just being able to destroy worlds (planets / stars) in different universes (basically bit and pieces of them at a time) in the multiverses shouldn't neccessarily make you at universal (3-A). 3-B is fine, but 3-A is a bit high for him, much less 2-C+ (and no way 2A). Nothing in "Illidan", Chronicle, or previous books / interview / in-game information has implied / hinted that Sargeras (or any other known character in WoW, including the Void Lords, maybe except the not-yet-exist Void Titan) was that powerful.

As of his speed in (2), my point wasn't that Sargeras was or wasn't summoned to Azeroth, but that he need a lot of time to get there ("Without a suitable gateway, he knew that travelling to the world would take ages" - Chronicle). At very best, he'd be at MFTL+, and this is being generous as there has been no feat or indication whatsoever that he or the Pantheon is even at that level. His speed is definitely not at immeasurable level. Physical distance still matters to him, a lot at that.

It's true that Aman'thul protected the timelines (and later tasked & empowered Nozdormu for that too). It's fair to assume that he can do everything time-related we've seen in lore so far (hastening / slowing time of targets, temporarily stopping time, reverting time back for a while, travelling back in time or to other timelines, etc.) on a much higher level. Don't get me wrong, he is really powerful. However, even developer (Metzen or Kosak IIRC, in a ask CDev section) stated that his power was not omnipotent and Aman'thul wasn't omniscient either (the one when someone asked why did the Pantheon empowered the Aspects to prevent the Cataclysm if Deathwing himself would end up being the cause of the Cataclysm). Thus, assuming Aman'thul's power over time has no limit just because we haven't seen any limit of it (as Aman'thul isn't "living" physically anymore) is wrong, and we shouldn't judge Sargeras' speed / attack potency / durability based on that assumption,

 

[Antvasima]

I think that this seems reasonable, but have asked Azathoth for input.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't remember nearly enough about Sargeras and his place in the lore to make a fully accurate assessment of this. I don't know who would, but maybe Aparjita?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask him as well.

 

[Aparajita]

At the moment, i think that Sargeras should be put at "Unknown. Possibly 3-B" as he was able to effortlessly destroy beings like Aman'thul.

This, of course, is until the end of Legion, where Sargeras' true powers will be revealed more.

Aman'thul is infinitely superior to Nozdormu who was able to create alternative timelines in his evil form. Now Sargeras is effortlessly stronger than Aman'thul. By effortlessly, i mean, he used a wave of his hand and a single spell and the entire Pantheon, who were charged with creating everything across the Multiverse, was destroyed.

The Legion itself was destroying everything across the Multiverse according to Illidan's novel, which has no reason to not be canon.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So do you think that Sargeras should keep his current ratings?

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with Aparajita on this.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

At the moment, i think that Sargeras should be put at "Unknown. Possibly 3-B" as he was able to effortlessly destroy beings like Aman'thul.
This, of course, is until the end of Legion, where Sargeras' true powers will be revealed more.

Aman'thul is infinitely superior to Nozdormu who was able to create alternative timelines in his evil form. Now Sargeras is effortlessly stronger than Aman'thul. By effortlessly, i mean, he used a wave of his hand and a single spell and the entire Pantheon, who were charged with creating everything across the Multiverse, was destroyed.

The Legion itself was destroying everything across the Multiverse according to Illidan's novel, which has no reason to not be canon.

I'll Agree. However, i'd say put em at around Unknown, Possibly 3-B/2-A at max

 

[Aparajita]

Okay. So do you think that Sargeras should keep his current ratings?

Well, here's how the scaling works.

Nozdormu creates his own timeline (at least one). His quotes,

"The "End Time," I once called this place. I had not seen, by then; I did not know. You hope to... what? Stop me, here? Change the fate I worked so tirelessly to weave?"

You crawl unwitting, like a blind, writhing worm, towards endless madness and despair. I have witnessed the true End Time. This? This is a blessing you simply cannot comprehend.

You know not what you have done. Aman'Thul... What I... have... seen...


Aman'thul empowered Nozdormu, who is infinitely stronger than the Dragon.

"During the ordering of Azeroth, Aman'Thul gifted some of his vast abilities to the titan-forged known as Highkeeper Ra and Keeper Odyn. The Highfather also entrusted the Highkeeper with The Fist of Ra-den, which could channel the fury of the storms. Ra used it to bestow life on the titan-forged mogu race, and he wielded it in battle against the Black Empire for years beyond counting. During the creation of the five dragonflights and the uplifting of the five Dragon Aspects, Ra channeled the powers of Aman'Thul into the bronze dragon Nozdormu, gifting him with powers over time"


And Sargeras destroys Aman'thul and all of the Pantheon with a single hit.

Sargeras used his sword to slice Agrammar in half vertically.The Pantheon was outraged over the murder of fellow titan, and fought a massive war with Sargeras.

His fel magic was too powerful and Sargeras killed them all with a massive storm of fel fire.


So Sargeras is >>>>>>> Aman'thul who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nozdormu who can create timelines.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, although was the word "infinitely" ever used? Because othervise, that would just classify the entity as 2-B.

Regardless, would you like to make an effort to insert clarifications into, and make adjustments for, the Sargeras page? I can temporarily unlock it in that case.

 

[Kronzz]

I'm a bit crappy at using vsbattle forum quotes, so forgive me for using quotation marks instead of the

tag (does it work here?) - this post is to address what Aparajita said:

- Firstly, Nozdormu / Murozond did not create timeline. The End Time is a future in which Deathwing was not stopped. Murozond just stayed there and used his power to block the Bronze Dragonflight / us' access to the past. His speech quotes didn't imply that he created it, and neither is the End Time description in game. The description in Blizzard site of The End Time was:

"One of an infinite number of potential outcomes, this timeway depicts the desolate future of Azeroth should Deathwing fail to be stopped. Nozdormu has identified a powerful anomaly that exists in this moment and bars access to the past - and hope of retrieving the Demon Soul. A powerful creatrue from out of time living alone amist time-twisted echoes of the past."

So far, the best creation feat we've seen from the bronze dragon was Chomie creating a time-pocket. Yes. Aman'thul empowered Nozdormu and he is naturally way more powerful than Nozdormu ever was, and definitely Chromie (who created a time-pocket) was insignifcant to him. However, that shouldn't be ground to assume that Aman'thul was anywhere near multiversal+, or that Sargeras is capable of multiversal+ attack potency / durability or immesurable speed just because he was more powerful than Aman'thul (especially given that time-related magic in WoW can be resisted if you are powerful enough compared to the caster, as seen when Nozdormu fought against Deathwing in Day of the Aspects).

Also, Sargeras never destroyed all of the Pantheon with a single hit. That made Sargeras sound way powerful than he was. The only one he did it was Aggramar, and it was because Aggramar approached him completely defenseless, trying to reason with him. When Aggramar and Sargeras fought the first time shortly before that, while Aggramar lost and retreated, Sargeras wasn't able to kill him. To clarify the story with people who aren't used to WC-verse / WoW, quoting Chronicle:

- Sargeras was using Fel and the Titans were uniquely susceptible to Fel, so he was attacking them using their weakness at first place. This was stated in the first fight between Sargeras and Aggramar ("Aggramar soon found himself outmatched. Like all titans, he was uniquely susceptible to fel magic. Sargeras' ferocious assault shattered Aggramar's defense and sent him reeling in agony").

- In the second "fight", before he was killed, Aggramar was approaching Sargeras completely defenseless ("Despite his earlier battle with Sargeras, Aggramar believed that something noble still lingered deep in the former champion's heart. As a last resort, he laid down his arms and approached the fallen titan. Aggramar recounted tales of their glorious battles against demons, reminding Sargeras of the sacred oaths they had sworn to protect creation. But Sargeras was set in his way. Nothing the Pantheon could say - nothing even his cherished protege could say - would ever change his mind. With a howl of rage and sorrow, Sargeras struck Aggramar down, his ruined fel blade nearly cleaving the Titan in two").

- The fight between the Pantheon and Sargeras didn't finish within "a single hit". ("Stars withered and died as the battle raged across the cosmos, scarring vast scretches of reality. Nihilam, known thereafter as the Doom World, became warped and twisted by the apocalyptic conflict. The Titans of Pantheon wielded powers incomprehensible to mortals' minds, yet even they could not overcome Sargeras' fel-fueled might. The fallen titan decimated the Pantheon members with fel fire until he had broken their will to fight. To seal their demise, Sargeras summoned a massive fel storm that would consume their bodies and souls alike"). That "single hit" was just the finishing move, their battle lasted way longer than that.


So basically, Sargeras was extremely powerful, but not as powerful as "destroying all of Pantheon in a single hit" sounds like. All in all, it's true that Sargeras >>> Aman'thul >>>>>>> Nozdormu. However, Nozdormu didn't create timeline and I don't think it'd be right to scale Sargeras one (or more) tier over the Titans / Pantheon (who would be around 3-C / 3-B) just because he beat them (the gap between 3-B and 3-A could be pretty large). That should only put him at least at the same tier, *possibly* higher, shouldn't it? I agree with putting him at "3B / Unknown". Just found it weird if he was 2-A as it was when I created this threat. To be honest, it'd still be weird if he was 3-A, as his goal (until WoTA) was to destroy the universe and so far no one is anywhere near universal level yet. If Sargeras was 3-A, he could just destroy the universe and be done with it instead of going through one planet to another.

 

[Aparajita]

Snip

Warcraft: Chronicals are the pre-legion story releases that Retcon a lot of WoW. Before the changes to Legion, i could have told you most of the WoW story wtihout error. Now, i'm not too sure, as i have no desire to play Legion. I only hope that Maiev and Illidan actually get the romance that's hinted at in Burning Crusade.

In Legion, we will hopefully see something more along the lines of Sargeras' intended power level.

"Unknown, At Least 3-B" (Superior to Aman'thul) should suffice for the moment until more of Legion comes out.

 

[Antvasima]

@Aparajita Okay. I will temporarily unlock the page, so you can edit it.

 

[Aparajita]

@Aparajita Okay. I will temporarily unlock the page, so you can edit it.

Will do.

About Sargeras' speed, he did fight Aman'thul who at least has complete control over time, as his horribly lesser servants, the Bronze Dragons, are able to manipulate time at will, and he's (arguably) infinitely stronger than they are. Should the Immeasurable speed be left?

 

[Antvasima]

Unknown might be better, if there is no explicit indication of this.

 

[Masterwar15]

I don't know if this has stopped being canon, or if it ever was, but I don't know if there's an evidence suggesting it isn't canon either, so here I'll say what I wanna say.

You guys are forgetting about how Broxigar Saurfang, a mere orc, was able to damage him with an axe, and be the only mortal to ever do something like that in the lore.

Yes, the axe was magical and really powerful, and yes, the damage was almost nothing, and he did overpower Broxigar with almost no effort at all, but he also did, indeed, get wounded.

Even though the Axe of Cenarius was mystical in nature, it can't be too much stronger than Cenarius himself (which by the way also got killed by some fel orcs, that are stronger than normal orcs but the difference isn't colossal), and not only that, but the axe wasn't even made by Cenarius, but by Malfurion.

And at this point you should know what this would mean for him, his durability just CAN'T be anything close to Multi-Galaxy level, much less far higher. There's just no way his durability is that big if a magic axe from some Demigod (not even a God)/Night Elf druid wielded by a normal (I think Broxigar is too badass to just call him normal but anyways) Orc warrior is capable of hurting him.

I'm not saying he can't destroy planets or whatever, but his durability isn't the same as the one of a galaxy or multiple galaxies. It is just folly to believe such a thing when an orc alone is able to make a wound on him, even if it was just a little scratch that's already enough to nerf him big time... Unless you want to believe Broxigar with that axe is multiple solar system level, galaxy level or something extremely ridiculous like that lol

(By the way, the axe survived both, Sargeras' wrath and the Sundering)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that these seem to be valid points.

 

[Jimmyjamster1992]

The thing about Druidic Magic is that it is tied to Nature and also the Divine, this means it is connected also to Elune herself. While the Goddess is not exactly shown she is powerful, with her power of clensing strong enough to rid the taint of the Old Gods.

But back on track, Nature Magic is connected both in the Divine and Nature. Now it has been shown that Druids possess a vast assortment of powers of nature and can draw it out, also the exact place the Axe came from is not know and Cenarius gave direction to its creation meaning he had a hand in it. Also what it is composed from is not know, that has a big key in it, the magic employed is another thing as well.

Now don't discount Nature and Druidic Magic either, said magic is powerful enough to force back the flames of Ragnaros that is capable of melting mountains and even bring life to the inhospitable Firelands. And Malfurion alongside Cenarius used their magic to hold back Ragnaros as well, and force him back into the Elemental Planes, that is impressive. So don't discount it, and while I am not saying that the axe can do Multi-Galaxy Level Damage the nick he recieved is not a sign of it.

An ant can draw blood on a fully grown man, and a horse fly can make a cow squeal.

The Axe only left a minor wound, and while things are subject to recon all the time and this was long before the Chronicles Book came out we can still count this as fact. Mainly because while he was damaged it wasnt noticable damage. For while Sargeras called Mannoroth and Archimonde Fleas, even a flea is capable of drawing blood from greater things.

Just consider it, at most I would say Star-Level with Sargeras simply due to the fact that is the only thing he had survived against.

 

[Masterwar15]

You make some good points, though you are forgetting that the Druidic magic was still kind of a new thing by that time for the Night Elves, and Malfurion's druidic powers could not have been anything close to what it was with Ragnaros (since there's a difference of +10.000 years).

Now, it is true an ant can draw blood on a fully grown man, probably not be able to kill it alone, but now, what would 1.000.000 ants do?

If the man isn't careful, he could potentially die.

Now, as it was said in the book, the wound was painful enough to distract Sargeras and be able to shut down the portal in time, so Sargeras certainly felt some considerably pain, not like an ant bitting you, but probably like a sting from a bee. Way more powerful than a simple ant, and way less than 1.000.000 would be necessary to kill a man, though a man could survive anyways pretty easily to a single one.

Now, I do think the axe was incredibly powerful, but I doubt it surpassed Planet level in attack potency, it could've been way lower than that.

I really don't know where I would put Sargeras in durability, probably between Multiple Planets to Star Level, but nothing more, considering the damage Sargeras received from the attack, it could've taken something 1000 times stronger than what the axe did to make a real wound.

Even if the attack was comparable to an ant bitting an elephant his durability would still be way more inferior than Multi-Galaxy, considering the colossal difference there is between a single planet and a single galaxy, even with this comparison his durability would be something between Star level+ to Solar System at MAX


Oh, and now that I see, how was Broxigar even able to land a single hit in a being Massively FTL+... And he wasn't even off-guard... Uh...

I personally think characters in the Warcraft Universe fight at a considerably realistic pace, and even though there are some demonstrations of pretty unrealistic speed, it never surpassed the speed of light, at least not characters by their own (without technology or something), and I seriously doubt Sargeras is an exception to this. I think Warcraft does remain inside the law of the Speed of Light as the limit speed of the universe, and that would explain why it would take an eternity for Sargeras to travel to Azeroth even at his max speed.

 

[Jimmyjamster1992]

Maybe we are looking at this wrong, what if it is not about the power of the hit, but what delivered it. Sargeras possessed a great deal of power, near complete dominance over Fel Magic in terms of might. But what happens when something that is harmful to demons of those of Fel nature?

It is likely the axe was designed specifically to harm demons, while this is speculative it is likely that the axe was made for Broxigar but had the design to kill and be very lethal towards demonic entities. Sargeras is as such, meaning that while it may not kill him it is specifically designed to harm demonic entities.

You don't create a new weapon unless it is designed to combat specific enemies you are fighting at the time. A bastards sword or claymore was designed to combat heavily armoured enemies, the long bow was designed to penetrate heavy armour. This axe may have been designed to harm demons, and is super effective mind you.

So the axe could have done what it did due to the fact it was specifically designed to counter Fel based entities like demons.

As for speed, arrogance may be a key point in this. He likely never expected the mortal creature to be able to harm him. You never think an ant or fly will hurt you being so small and insignificant. He might have let him take the shot just for the hell of it.

Also that is likely Travel Speed rather than combat speed.

 

[Masterwar15]

Yes, probably, but even between the same kind of stuff there are differences. Like, you can have this Knife, that is good cutting meat, but then you can have this Super Knife, that is a lot better to cut meat, or this Ultra Knife, that cuts meat like if it was butter.

There are a lot of weapons designed to combat demonic entities in the Warcraft Universe, and also magic spells, skills, techniques, items, armor, etc. The attack potency of the axe in this respect still had to be incredibly strong, because I doubt any weapon created to defeat demons would have the same effect on Sargeras (if that was the case, then everyboy would just use them, and gg, eazy).
And I know this isn't Pokemon, but it's better explained there and it works in the same way, element advantages aren't nothing if the difference in power is so big. (Something stated in Pokemon Origins I believe)

It is true in the Warcraft universe different types of elements and weapons do have different effects on certain opponents (element resistances used to be a really important game mechanic in WoW), but they can still be escalated.

Even though it wouldn't do the same damage to every living being in the universe, you can escalate it by the amount of damage it made to the rest of demons, and the forces that created it, comparing the damage the same forces did to an enviroment or to another kind of foe that wasn't a demon too.

And now that we are talking about this, shouldn't corrupted Sargeras be confirmed to have a weakness for Nature/Anti-Demonic spells? They should add it in to his page.

 

[Jimmyjamster1992]

It is true that this is mostly speculation, we don't know exactly what to expect. When this was done it could have been due to previous versions of this character. It would be like trying to compare Post-Crisis Superman to Pre-Crisis Superman, with the Chronicles being the Post-Crisis material.

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked Aparajita for input.

 

[Jimmyjamster1992]

Cool.

 

[Aparajita]

Broxigar hurting Sargeras could either be that his axe was empowered by Malorne (and Elune herself by extension) or purely PiS to make Broxigar look fantastic.

You're claiming that because a "mere Orc" was able to hurt Sargeras, while the entire Pantheon (that goes around creating and destroying parts of the galaxy) should affect Sargeras' stats. That's the physical, literal definition of an Outlier.


To be absolutely safe, i would put the Warcraft tiers in the following categories:


Sargeras: Galaxy+ (Likely far higher), Curbstomped the Pantheon with utter ease, the Pantheon is capable of forging the universe over time and utterly superior to Aman'thul who empowered Nozdormu, who shattered the timeline, possibly Universal+

Pantheon: Solar System+ (Casually assisted in the creation of the Universe over an unknown timeframe, this should be considered their strongest feat).

Archimonde/Kil'Jaeden: Planet Level (The strongest Eredar and Demons by a large margin, several sources cite Eredar as being able to destroy planets, Kil'jaeden appeared confident to challenge Sargeras when he (Kil'jaeden) was empowered by the Well of Eternity)

Murmur: Planet Level (Casually destroys Planets with a whisper).

Mannoroth/Lich King Arthas/Azshara/Lords of the Legion on scale to Mannoroth: Moon Level (Above the Aspects by a considerable margin, but considered insignificant to Archimonde).

Demon Form Illidan/Thrall/Other Peak Characters/DK Arthas: Multi-Cont (In their strongest forms, they're all comparable to Thrall, who replaces Neltharion as the Aspect of Earth and should be comparable to pre-corruption Neltharion, who was given "dominion over the forces of the Earth")

Nozdormu: Unknown, possibly 2-C via hax unsuitable for combat (shattered the Timeline and altered the future, although it's uncertain how large of a "future" he created).


There are many feats including dodging CTG Lightning in the comics that puts Thrall and everyone near him to being lightning dodgers.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[MasterOfArda]

So this is accepted?

 

[MasterOfArda]

Are these the correct stats?

 

[Antvasima]

This is a very old thread, so it should be closed, but I think that Aparajita (who is currently missing from the wiki) has long since handled the changes.