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Waking up from the Dream (2-B Mario Downgrades)

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The info you show doesn't say what you think it's saying, you're just showing that "some amount of that happens, with no measurement".

Question how do we know those dream worlds don't just last as much as the dream lasts? And why would it sum up all dreams of all beings who can dream, rather than some dreams along them making "Many dreams arrive"?
While it's true that the duration of dream worlds in the Mario franchise is not explicitly stated, there is evidence to suggest that these dream worlds exist as more than just fleeting experiences: The statement from Mario Party 5, mentioning that "entirely new dream worlds are born every day," implies a continuous creation and existence of dream worlds and how can Mario physically visit his subcon even after waking up from the dream(no pun intended) This suggests that dream worlds persist beyond the duration of an individual's dream and are not limited to the transient nature of the dream itself
Without further evidence or clarification indicating otherwise, it is reasonable to assume that dream worlds in the Mario franchise have a lasting existence so the burden of proof is on you to prove that their existence is limited.
The statement "Many dreams arrive here at Dream Depot every day" indicates that a significant number of dreams are being received, implying that Dream Depot accumulates dreams from various sources the use of the term "many" suggests a substantial quantity. This implies that Dream Depot represents a wide range of dream worlds, making it more likely that it encompasses dreams from multiple beings who can dream within the Mario universe.
Without additional context or information suggesting otherwise, it is easier to interpret the statement as inclusive of a significant portion of dreams rather than a selective subset, and to make it worse:
夜空の向こう、星空のかなたにユメの世界ユメミールがありました。
世界中みんなのユメが集まる、ここはまさにユメの国・・・
このユメミールには、「星の精」たちがいて
みんなのユメを暖かく見守っています。
Beyond the night sky, beyond the stars, there is the world of dreams, Yumemir(dream depot).
A world of dreams, where all the dreams of the world come together.
In this Yumemir, there are "star spirits"
They warmly watch over everyone's dreams.

To quote myself: Realities shaped the same way from the outside being all the same size makes sense if 1 is universe-sized. This are dreams, what they are is what the dreamer dreams of, the highest extend of one has no reason nor is it likely to be the size of them all because it was exclusively made that big. Dreaming something that big could have easily made the dream bigger, not display a natural size it always already has.
Edited:In the Mario games, the dream worlds have consistent visual similarities, be it in the form of bubbles or sharing structures. The ending credits focusing on dream worlds and the presence of multiple orbs sharing the same world like Future Dream suggest a parallel nature rather than some orbs representing a small portion of Future Dream. Future Dream meets universe-sized criteria, suggesting it's a universe on its own. The dreams, shaped by imagination, also contain elements beyond control since by their very nature, possess an innate capacity to harbor elements beyond the conscious volition of the dreamer(And I'm sure everyone who dreams knows that).These dream worlds show shared features, such as starry skies, realistic nebulae across various dreams, including Subcon
The presence of these consistent features and the occurrence of dream worlds taking players to minigames set in outer space (Sweet Dreams and Toy Dreams) indicate shared attributes.Such consistent visual motifs hint at a parallelism, reinforcing the idea that these dream worlds can be considered individual universes within the multiverse.
To restate the issues with it:
  • "The Universe" can be translated as Space as in, outer space, the gimmick of that world being that it's the outer space area.
  • Infinite can be a hyperhole or go as in it being ever expanding, because space is ever expanding. Particularly, let's look at one scan you showed; The translation is wrong, it says "From this green-colored door, you can go to the endlessly spreading 'vast universe'...", because はてしなく (Hateshinaku) means "endlessly" and ひろがる (Hirogaru) means "spreads" or "expands", it's easy for me to believe that "infinite" was wanked for higher stuff in Vs. The texts refers to this space being ever growing, not that it is infinite in a set size.
The fact that World 4 is referred to as "The Universe" implies a connection to the concept of the universe as a whole, rather than simply representing outer space.
The use of the term "infinite-sized statements" in both the English and Japanese versions further supports the idea that World 4 represents a vast and expansive space
In your provided translation, the phrase "From this green-colored door, you can go to the endlessly spreading 'vast universe'..." still highlights the idea of expansion and continuous growth.
While "hateshinaku" can be translated as "endlessly," it can also carry connotations of vastness or boundlessness. In the context of the game, it implies a limitless expanse.
The term "hirogaru" meaning "spreads" or "expands" reinforces the concept of the universe in World 4 being ever-growing, so regardless if it’s infinite or ad-infinitum, it still implies it’s a large structure
Tippi used of the kanji 宙域 (Chūiki) in that scan, which means universe and macrocosm, provides further evidence that World 4 represents a larger cosmic space rather than just outer space with her straight out saying "infinte universe"
Considering the macrocosm aspect aligns with the expansive and infinite-sized statements, reinforcing the interpretation that World 4 represents the universe
When we use the phrase "infinitely extending," we delve into the realm of limitless expansion, transcending the boundaries of a defined area. It signifies an unbounded progression that stretches perpetually, unencumbered by the confinement of specific limits or endpoints. To comprehend the true essence of infinitude, one must envision a continuous, boundless expanse that defies the constraints of finite spatial demarcations.
Example of a sentence:the mountains extend over the western end of the island.(Which means the mountains already cover that area)
In the given example of the mountains extending over the western end of the island, we observe a spatial distribution that encompasses a designated region. This demonstrates the notion of extension within a finite scope, whereby the mountains effectively cover/occupy the specific area designated as the western end of the island.
However, the concept of "infinitely extending" diverges significantly from this notion of confined extension. It conveys an essence of unbounded growth and expansion, traversing boundaries without cessation. By employing the term "infinitely," we evoke a sense of boundless magnitude that exceeds any finite measurement or delineation.
Thus, when we speak of something as "infinitely extending," we invoke the idea of spanning an infinite area or space, transcending the limitations of defined boundaries. This implies an inexhaustible continuum, perpetually expanding without a definitive terminus.
True, and as said before, anything can make any sense in fiction but that doesn't mean anything does, the bigger the take the bigger the evidence you need to back it up. You can't just say wild things like that as proposals in the air.
It is true that the terms "Universe" and "World" and "dimension" can be used interchangeably in certain contexts in fiction, and their precise definitions can vary depending on the specific work or narrative.
In the case of Super Paper Mario, the game explicitly uses the term "dimension" to refer to different realities or alternate spaces within the game's universe.
While "Universe" can sometimes be used to refer to a multiverse, it is crucial to analyze the specific terminology and context used within Super Paper Mario to determine the intended meaning. In this case, the game's consistent use of the term "dimension" suggests distinct and separate realms
It is common in fiction to use the term "dimension" to describe alternate realities or different planes of existence and the concept of different dimensions representing alternative realities or variations of space-time is widely used in many fictional works so given the established conventions and consistent usage of the term "dimension" in fiction, it is reasonable to interpret the various worlds in SPM as distinct dimensions within the game
In the case of it, the game explicitly refers to different dimensions and provides details about accessing these dimensions through alternate universes and dimensional doors.
By analyzing the in-game information and consistency of terminology, the interpretation that the worlds in Super Paper Mario are different dimensions aligns with the provided evidence.

I don't understand how this supports your case.
Can this be compiled well to show what's a fact and what's assumed?
In Super Paper Mario, the game establishes the presence of different dimensions and universes, as evident from the need for Mario to travel to Flipside, which is referred to as a different dimension itself.
Flipside serves as a hub between dimensions, allowing access to various worlds through dimensional doors.
The fact that Mario needs to visit parallel universes to access different worlds is further evidence of the existence of multiple dimensions within the game.
The seven doorways shown in Flipside are described as leading to individual dimensions, each housing a unique Pure Heart.
It is explicitly stated by characters like Tippi and Merlon in the Japanese version that only one Pure Heart is located behind each door. This suggests that these doorways do not transport Mario to the same universe or planet.
If all the worlds were part of the same universe, Mario could have used the first dimensional door to collect all the Pure Hearts. The fact that each door leads to a different dimension implies their individuality.
The placement of the Pure Hearts in distant locations, requiring the opening of dimensional doors or the use of transport, supports the notion of separate dimensions.
If the worlds were all part of the same universe, Squirps or other characters could have easily assisted Mario in collecting the Pure Hearts without the need for such complicated measures.
The requirement to place the Pure Hearts in distant pillars and the need to traverse different dimensions suggest a deliberate design to emphasize the existence of separate dimensions within the game.
This is coping and very flawed. The "Make it as fun as possible" isn't the same as "best possible story" and doesn't translate as "being truly faithful with its expanded mythology", you just made that up saying that most people would believe that, the truth is that we don't know what "Make it as fun as possible" means because it's vague as f*ck and we can't extrapolate further than that. Nor is the fact that they "worked together" worth anything if they don't do so to make both versions canon, they worked together to make it as fun as possible only.

Even then, that same guide has statements that screw over your take very clearly, which I was again told that they would be hold back.
Thumbs up for "coping" and you know what I mean. Anyways, the English version of the story helps to explain certain aspects of the original story that may be difficult to understand for non-Japanese speakers because Japanese is a very fluid and context dependent language. For example, the English version of the story can provide more context for certain cultural references that may be unfamiliar to non-Japanese speakers since the localization team worked closely with the original Japanese team. They also discussed the story and context of the game, so they would have a good understanding of what the original creators intended.I would like to point out that the counterargument is based on a false dichotomy. It assumes that the localization can only be either accurate or fun, but this is not the case. The localization can be both accurate and fun. In fact, the localization team has shown that they are capable of achieving both of these goals.
While it's true that "fun" and "best possible story" are not directly synonymous, it's reasonable to assume that a game's development team would strive to create an enjoyable experience by incorporating elements that enhance the story. Making it fun doesn't necessarily mean sacrificing fidelity to the original story; it can involve adding humor, adding context or improving pacing.
Perhaps the statement itself may be somewhat vague, but it's not unreasonable to interpret it as an effort to enhance the player's experience by creating an enjoyable and engaging narrative. Without further information, it's fair to assume that the teams aimed to create a fun and immersive experience by collaborating closely
Collaboration between the Japanese and English teams suggests a joint effort to ensure a consistent experience across both versions. While it doesn't explicitly guarantee both versions are canon, it does indicate a shared goal of maintaining coherence and avoiding significant discrepancies in the storytelling and world-building.
Given that the teams worked together, it's reasonable to assume they had discussions to align their interpretations and translations. This collaboration would likely involve clarifying any ambiguous story elements to ensure a cohesive narrative. Therefore, the English localization can be considered reliable for English readers(the wider audience), as it was created in coordination with the original Japanese team.
The examples provided by the Void statements may suggest that the English localization remained consistent with the Japanese version, which further supports the reliability of the English version.
And here is an additional information:Nate B, a respected member of the localization team, illuminates the intricacies of their collaboration with the development teams in a manner that unveils the profound nature of their work. Their daily communication, conducted through a multitude of channels including in-person meetings, emails, instant messaging, video conferences, and phone calls, exemplifies the unwavering dedication of the localization team to comprehending the nuances of the game. Through their painstaking efforts, the translation teams meticulously translate each message, adhering to a verbatim approach while also infusing the adjacent columns with developer notes and linguistic subtleties that transcend the raw translation. This meticulous attention to detail ensures that the final localized text not only aligns with the intentions of the developers but also encapsulates the very essence of their creative vision.
The profound relationship forged with the development teams over the course of two decades lays the foundation for a mutual respect and familiarity that form the bedrock of their collaborative efforts. It is within this context that the localization team assumes an indispensable role in upholding the integrity of the original work.
Notably, the developers themselves are deeply involved in the localization process, meticulously scrutinizing each and every word crafted by the localization team. This keen involvement serves as a powerful testament to the tremendous impact that localization wields in shaping the final product. Nate B explicitly emphasizes that preserving the developers' vision remains the foremost priority(NB: Obviously the developers are reading every word we write, and our number-one priority on this and every game is to preserve their vision while maximizing the enjoyment of our own audience."), underscoring an unwavering commitment to safeguarding the integrity of the source material while simultaneously maximizing the enjoyment of the target audience.
By incorporating these illuminating insights into what we have, a profound narrative emerges, solidifying the notion that localization is not only a valid and authentic representation of the developers' original vision but also an indispensable component of the creative process. The collaboration between the localization team and the developers, evident through their daily interactions, meticulous translations, and ongoing conversations, underscores a shared objective which is to uphold the artistic vision while captivating faithful experience for the audience

You say this like it means anything, are they even called parallel to each other or are you just saying that?
i assume he talks about this
(I might take a small break because of irl work and because watching detective conan holds a priority, man this is the best effort i've put into an argument i feel exhausted)
 
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There is somewhat of an explanation for how long dreams can last, with Eldstar calling Future Dream endless, which in context can mean the dream itself will go on for an endless time period of unimpeded.
 
Can’t reply to all of this yet, but I want to mention Subcon seems to be a special case separate from most Dream Worlds and is more of a Dream dimension type deal that characters can be called to through sleeping. Considering how Subcon is shown in BS Super Mario Bros USA, SMB2’s sequel. It doesn’t seem to be a Dream world Mario made and is moreso something he was called into.
 
Let's maybe not dwell on this for too long given Kirb and I had some translations done in regard to Future Dream that would make its size scaling to anything completely impossible.
Bowser's dream(s) are treated as fathoming this (alleged infinite) dream though when he corrupts it and "fills it". I suppose we can wait longer though...
 
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Yeah sorry I’m on vacation out of state rn so I’ll be a bit. I’ve still got some things I wanna clear with the translator too.

It took like over a month for the opposition’s arguments to finally be made so a little while longer on our end to retort hopefully won’t be too bad.
 
Can’t reply to all of this yet, but I want to mention Subcon seems to be a special case separate from most Dream Worlds and is more of a Dream dimension type deal that characters can be called to through sleeping. Considering how Subcon is shown in BS Super Mario Bros USA, SMB2’s sequel. It doesn’t seem to be a Dream world Mario made and is moreso something he was called into
I remember that it's straight out referred as Mario's dream, and not to forget BS SMB.USA mentioned that there is as much subcons as people dreams or something
 
Now let’s get this clear: Future Dream, from Mario Party 5, is clearly stated to be a universe.
That's the case for like 99% of universes in fiction though, but they're still considered universes. There's also this, so I do think it's fair to consider it an actual universe.
IMG_9698.jpg
So, from what's been said, Future Dream is the only dream that's a universe. Right?
 
So, from what's been said, Future Dream is the only dream that's a universe. Right?
Yes. However, that's something reliant on some specific translations we haven't posted yet, so we'll get to that eventually.

On that note, would everyone here be okay with it if we made a new thread recapping the points in the OP, DDM's response, and our response (once Kirb and I make it)? Since the Dream Team scaling is handled already.
 
Yes. However, that's something reliant on some specific translations we haven't posted yet, so we'll get to that eventually.

On that note, would everyone here be okay with it if we made a new thread recapping the points in the OP, DDM's response, and our response (once Kirb and I make it)? Since the Dream Team scaling is handled already.
Eh, keep it here, this is like only 3 pages long and espacially since we're going back to dream team scaling depending on the result we're going to get(I do not want my hard work to go to waste after writing that bible)
 
The Galaxy black hole may scale to it.
You mean the explosion from the black hole? Plenty of reasons.

1. The black hole itself isn’t arguably uni, it’s the explosion that occurs afterwards from the tandem of hundreds of Luma + the Grand Star causing the galaxy to collapse
2. We have no idea what actually happened in that scene. Rosalina using her shields to block it isn’t supported or mentioned anywhere in the game outside of some guidebooks based on assumptions of how the ending goes. The shields certainly weren’t working to stop the Observatory from being sucked into the black hole.
3. If this is counted as a big bang feat, and we assume Rosalina blocked a portion of it to protect Mario, Rosalina wouldn’t be scaled as uni for it. She isn’t restraining a full big bang ala Kyle Rayner from DC or absorbing one like Simon the Digger from TTGL, she’s just blocking a small portions. Since a big bang is just an explosion on a universal scale, the further away from the explosion you are and the less of the blast you block the lower the energy yield would be. Even being a few feet from the epicenter of the Big Bang would drastically reduce the energy output. Feats for tanking a portion of the Big Bang, unless you’re at the epicenter, are generally multi galaxy at best, and have been calced as low as moon level at the best. There’s not really any solid scaling to give to anyone from that feat at all.
Just wanted to ask: has anyone ever calculated the black hole feat from Super Mario Galaxy?
 
What I meant was the universe reset at the end of Galaxy in general, it affected all the space in the main Mario universe which includes Dream Depot.
The Dream Depot would be contained within Mario Party World, which was revealed to be its own world/dimension in Mario Party Superstars & supported by MP3 iirc, considering all the events of the MP games take place over there. There's no proof the black hole / explosion affected that realm, so it couldn't be argued to scale really even if we assume DD is uni/multi.
Just wanted to ask: has anyone ever calculated the black hole feat from Super Mario Galaxy?
I don't think the feat can really be calculated. Maybe the black hole itself if you did some convoluted calc of the big crunch, but its essentially just a big bang after the explosion.

The issue with calcing it is that its a feat performed by a literal uncountable amount of Lumas + the Grand Star, which would mean figuring out how to divide the level of power among all parties involved and assuming that a general number can be assigned to everyone involved. At the absolute best with some generosity you could maybe get Multi Galaxy+ per Luma.
 
I don't think the feat can really be calculated. Maybe the black hole itself if you did some convoluted calc of the big crunch, but its essentially just a big bang after the explosion.

The issue with calcing it is that its a feat performed by a literal uncountable amount of Lumas + the Grand Star, which would mean figuring out how to divide the level of power among all parties involved and assuming that a general number can be assigned to everyone involved. At the absolute best with some generosity you could maybe get Multi Galaxy+ per Luma.
Couldn't this make Bowser and the rest of the cast Multi-Galaxy+ rather than Universal+? Where can I find the feat?
 
Couldn't this make Bowser and the rest of the cast Multi-Galaxy+ rather than Universal+? Where can I find the feat?
Uhhhhh nobody has any reason to scale to the Black Hole to get Universal+ in the first place. The feat is just in the ending of SMG1. You could maybe argue Multi-Galaxy for them but itd need calculations and more supporting it than just that one feat imho.

I do think that depending on how this downgrade goes, you could argue Multi-Galaxy for some things, as a lot of the verses' Uni-Multi arguments would get bumped down a quantity of MSS & Galaxy stuff.

I'll look into if I'll look into Multi Galaxy upgrades at all depending on how these downgrades pan down at all.

A huh? Where was this shown?
Pretty sure its the opening of Mario Party Superstars. MP3's opening also has a Mario Party World of its own within that Toybox which could maybe be the same thing, if not then its just another pocket dimension. I think there's another Mario Party World in the Gameboy Advance game but its pretty unrelated to an alternate world and is more like an amusement park.
 
Pretty sure its the opening of Mario Party Superstars. MP3's opening also has a Mario Party World of its own within that Toybox which could maybe be the same thing, if not then its just another pocket dimension. I think there's another Mario Party World in the Gameboy Advance game but its pretty unrelated to an alternate world and is more like an amusement park.
Amm they only traveled to different locations using the pipe in the game so idk how that translate to another dimension or something and for MP3, the fake millimineum star teleported them from their world to inside a toy box
 
Amm they only traveled to different locations using the pipe in the game so idk how that translate to another dimension or something and for MP3, the fake millimineum star teleported them from their world to inside a toy box
Its referred to as the World of Mario Party, they access it through a pipe which is one way that dimensional travel is performed in the series, and its noted to be a place they haven't been in so long they may not remember, and everything across the entire MP series is accessed in there, board, minigames (including ones from MP5), etc. Seems to add up just fine.
 
Its referred to as the World of Mario Party, they access it through a pipe which is one way that dimensional travel is performed in the series, and its noted to be a place they haven't been in so long they may not remember, and everything across the entire MP series is accessed in there, board, minigames (including ones from MP5), etc. Seems to add up just fine
the "World of Mario Party" serves as a metaphorical title rather than a literal reference to different dimensions. While dimensional travel is performed through pipes in the series, most games take place on the same planet, with a few exceptions involving unique realms in space or toy boxes. The concept of traveling through pipes (espacially these standards ones) is mainly used to move between locations within the same world, and instances of dimensional travel are specifically noted as exceptional and unique.
Regarding the phrase "a place they haven't been in so long they may not remember," This is wrong for two reasons: First that has nothing to do with other dimensions since we irl say similar things when we don't visit a place for a long time. Secondly, that's not what has been said, the whole cutscene is a reference to the first mario party, let's take a look at the quote:

"Looks familiar, doesn't it?"
"It all started with this green pipe... The journey to become the Super Star."
"*Maybe you even forgot all about it?. That's OK... It's been such a long time, after all."
"Travel through this pipe, and that journey begins again!"

What They talk about is their first journey in the first Mario party, since it is been a long time since that game indeed
Again, It is essential to clarify that this reference is not connected to other dimensions. Instead, it is a nostalgic allusion to the first Mario Party game.
The cutscene in question is a direct homage to the original game, with the setting being a remake of the first Mario Party board. The dialogue reflects the characters' reminiscing about their initial journey in the first game and the passing of time since then.
In this context, the "World of Mario Party" is more about revisiting the memories and experiences of past games, invoking nostalgia for long-time fans. The title does not suggest that it involves actual dimensional travel between separate worlds or realms.
 
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Thinking about it, saying events of Mario party games take place in a different dimension would further prove that dream depot takes dreams from more than one universe but, Honestly, I strive for accuracy
 
Gotta love translation arguments they're just the best.

Depending on how I feel I may also give some responses here, but generally I agree with Starsprite and DDM here.

I will say though, all this effort to try and take the sentences that clearly say universe and all that to mean something else is a bit absurd imo. Like, yeah, with enough effort we could turn any translation into something else entirely.
 
While it's true that the duration of dream worlds in the Mario franchise is not explicitly stated, there is evidence to suggest that these dream worlds exist as more than just fleeting experiences: The statement from Mario Party 5, mentioning that "entirely new dream worlds are born every day," implies a continuous creation and existence of dream worlds
No it doesn't. If a set of things are created every day then the fact that new of them get created every day doesn't say anything on how much they last.
and how can Mario physically visit his subcon even after waking up from the dream(no pun intended) This suggests that dream worlds persist beyond the duration of an individual's dream and are not limited to the transient nature of the dream itself
That's good.
The statement "Many dreams arrive here at Dream Depot every day" indicates that a significant number of dreams are being received, implying that Dream Depot accumulates dreams from various sources the use of the term "many" suggests a substantial quantity. This implies that Dream Depot represents a wide range of dream worlds, making it more likely that it encompasses dreams from multiple beings who can dream within the Mario universe.
Ah, no, you can absolutely accumulate things given to you every time that only last for a time, again the information you're using doesn't add up to the logic you're using it for.
Without additional context or information suggesting otherwise, it is easier to interpret the statement as inclusive of a significant portion of dreams rather than a selective subset, and to make it worse:
夜空の向こう、星空のかなたにユメの世界ユメミールがありました。
世界中みんなのユメが集まる、ここはまさにユメの国・・・
このユメミールには、「星の精」たちがいて
みんなのユメを暖かく見守っています。
Beyond the night sky, beyond the stars, there is the world of dreams, Yumemir(dream depot).
A world of dreams, where all the dreams of the world come together.
In this Yumemir, there are "star spirits"
They warmly watch over everyone's dreams.
So, to clarify what's the point this shows?

So, I'm good with how they last for more than what the dream last. However, only all the dreams of the beings in the world would come there.
The striking presence of visual depictions in the Mario franchise that bear resemblance to each of the dream worlds - be it in the form of bubbles or other structures - serves as a profound testament to the metaphorical similarities and shared traits among these ethereal realms. Such consistent visual motifs undoubtedly hint at a parallelism, an intrinsic link that connects these dream worlds on a fundamental level. This parallel nature, with its inherent resemblances, imparts a profound significance to these individual realms, elevating them to the status of distinct universes
The presence of these consistent visual depictions, along with the parallel nature of the dream worlds, implies that they can be considered as individual universes
I have issues with the way you wrote all of this, it's pretentious, I can have a good faith take on what you mean on everything but I would ultimately be assuming more than what I would need to, when the standard, normal thing to do is for people to not talk in this religious-like manner, because it's terrible, case in point;

"The striking presence" Why does it matter that it's striking? What would it lose if it wasn't striking?

"serves as a profound testament" It's not prefound, you're overhyped. When things are done that imply further info than only what's shown, like similarities to portray further similarities, how do you define when it's profound and when it isn't? How would you define a simpleton, wrong way of doing that by contrast?

"metaphorical similarities and shared traits" That's redundant.

"ethereal realms" It doesn't add or remove anything the fact that this are "ethereal" or not.

"Such consistent visual motifs" That's even more redundant to "metaphorical similarities and shared traits".

"undoubtedly hint" No, it vaguely implies it, but it's not undoubtedly. Unless you mean it as in, it"undoubtedly vaguely implies", at which point it's redundant.

"hint at a parallelism" You're misusing the word "parallelism" when using it to refer to vague, unknown similarities. Unless you didn't mean that, in which case you're wrong. Either way, it's redundant to "metaphorical similarities and shared traits" and "consistent visual motifs".

"an intrinsic link" Again redundant. And you're misusing "intrinsic" to add more value to this to what it really has.

"on a fundamental level" You're misusing "intrinsic" to add more value to this to what it really has. Same thought as before, how do you define when something is on a fundamental and when it isn't? How would you define a simpleton, wrong way of doing that by contrast?

"This parallel nature," Parallel is wrong as said before, and you need to make gymnastics to call this a nature, it's pretentious/there is no reason to be poetic about it.

"with its inherent resemblances" You have no idea what you're talking about there as the "parallel nature" is those "inherent resemblances", they're not an extra thing they hold. You go on and on and on over this similarities.

"imparts a profound significance" As before, it's not profound.

"elevating them to the status of distinct universes" No need to say "elevating". It doesn't make them universe just because you say so after so much nonsense.

"The presence of these consistent visual depictions, along with the parallel nature of the dream worlds, implies that they can be considered as individual universes" No, it implies unknown and vague similarities between them, something met by the fact that they're dreams. You assume those similarities apply to the degree of their size being the same for no reason other that that they have similarities, therefore it holds no water.

@DarkDragonMedeus Medeus, as a staff, can you call out when things like this happen as to not normalize them? Are we on the same page on how terrible it is to do this? I'm sure it could be said that it was just for the lols, but that's to be assumed and it's still the argument used, so it would still need to be called out when things like this happen. Misuse the use of words and give further value to things that don't deserve it to satisfy oneself while being wrong about is bad practice, and I want to see if we agree on this, because as far as I know maybe you wouldn't mind if everyone were to argue to each other like this.
Future Dream, as mentioned, meets the criteria for a universe-level sized spacetime continuum, indicating that it has evidence to be considered a universe on its own.
The comment you quote replies to the use of that criteria in this case though.
The ending credits focusing on dream worlds and the presence of multiple orbs sharing the same world like Future Dream suggest a parallel nature rather than each orb representing a small portion of Future Dream.
Same as before with the "parallel nature", it's a made up thing you have. You already talked about the criteria for universe-sized realities so I already know this is what you're talking about.
While dreams in the Mario franchise are shaped by the dreamer's imagination, it's important to consider that dreams often contain elements beyond the direct control of the dreamer. Dreams, by their very nature, possess an innate capacity to harbor elements beyond the conscious volition of the dreamer. It is within this rich tapestry of subconscious creation that dream worlds come to fruition, each brimming with their own distinct features and cosmic wonders.
It follows that you prove that none of that is made the dreamer too, and you don't. You're also being a bit pretentious again for no reason; you don't need to overly construct sentences like this. In any healthy environment it would be reasonable to assume you do so to subconsciously add it more vague & meaning to what you're talking about and so you would be told to stop doing that because it's not normal and it's bad. So, I'm gonna stop the reply here and wait to see what Medeus has to say about it, because if I'm on my own in my position about it then there is no point in any of this and I would need to first arrange things elsewhere so that we at least see this as inappropriate & why before continuing. I'm left in a very uncomfortable environment needing to debate this and getting things like "It is within this rich tapestry of subconscious creation that dream worlds come to fruition, each brimming with their own distinct features and cosmic wonders.".
 
Dammit I tried my best to make my argument to be well structured and vocabulared like DDM's, and paerhaps I should stop translating from Arabic to English
Well reply to this later
 
@Eficiente I am too tied up with RL duties combined with trying to keep up with far more important topics to tackle every detail. But I find your counterarguments to be the textbook definition of knit picking to be perfectly honest. But "New dreams being born every day" is easily more than enough reason to say the number exceeds 1001. Even if we assumed only one dream was born every day and that Dream Depot only lasted 3 years, it would still exceed 1095. But Dream Depot was stated to exist since the beginning of time and it specifically says "Many Dreams" not just a single dream.

Subcon and Bowser's Nightmare clearly still exist even after they woke up from their respective dreams, so I don't know where the headcanon about them being short timespans comes from.

"Beyond the stars" is a very neutral statement. It can mean anywhere between interstellar distance and outside the universe. But I would not really use that as either evidence or counter evidence about Dream Depot's size or location.

I have issues with the way you wrote all of this, it's pretentious, I can have a good faith take on what you mean on everything but I would ultimately be assuming more than what I would need to, when the standard, normal thing to do is for people to not talk in this religious-like manner, because it's terrible, case in point;

"The striking presence" Why does it matter that it's striking? What would it lose if it wasn't striking?

"serves as a profound testament" It's not prefound, you're overhyped. When things are done that imply further info than only what's shown, like similarities to portray further similarities, how do you define when it's profound and when it isn't? How would you define a simpleton, wrong way of doing that by contrast?

"metaphorical similarities and shared traits" That's redundant.

"ethereal realms" It doesn't add or remove anything the fact that this are "ethereal" or not.

"Such consistent visual motifs" That's even more redundant to "metaphorical similarities and shared traits".

"undoubtedly hint" No, it vaguely implies it, but it's not undoubtedly. Unless you mean it as in, it"undoubtedly vaguely implies", at which point it's redundant.

"hint at a parallelism" You're misusing the word "parallelism" when using it to refer to vague, unknown similarities. Unless you didn't mean that, in which case you're wrong. Either way, it's redundant to "metaphorical similarities and shared traits" and "consistent visual motifs".

"an intrinsic link" Again redundant. And you're misusing "intrinsic" to add more value to this to what it really has.

"on a fundamental level" You're misusing "intrinsic" to add more value to this to what it really has. Same thought as before, how do you define when something is on a fundamental and when it isn't? How would you define a simpleton, wrong way of doing that by contrast?

"This parallel nature," Parallel is wrong as said before, and you need to make gymnastics to call this a nature, it's pretentious/there is no reason to be poetic about it.

"with its inherent resemblances" You have no idea what you're talking about there as the "parallel nature" is those "inherent resemblances", they're not an extra thing they hold. You go on and on and on over this similarities.

"imparts a profound significance" As before, it's not profound.

"elevating them to the status of distinct universes" No need to say "elevating". It doesn't make them universe just because you say so after so much nonsense.

"The presence of these consistent visual depictions, along with the parallel nature of the dream worlds, implies that they can be considered as individual universes" No, it implies unknown and vague similarities between them, something met by the fact that they're dreams. You assume those similarities apply to the degree of their size being the same for no reason other that that they have similarities, therefore it holds no water.

@DarkDragonMedeus Medeus, as a staff, can you call out when things like this happen as to not normalize them? Are we on the same page on how terrible it is to do this? I'm sure it could be said that it was just for the lols, but that's to be assumed and it's still the argument used, so it would still need to be called out when things like this happen. Misuse the use of words and give further value to things that don't deserve it to satisfy oneself while being wrong about is bad practice, and I want to see if we agree on this, because as far as I know maybe you wouldn't mind if everyone were to argue to each other like this.
Lastly, all of this literally goes against the very footnote in the Universe page of the Universe sized pocket reality standards. Future Dream alone has more than enough reasons to stand on it's own. And while Endless/Infinite are both words that can be hyperbolic, it is still at bare minimum supporting evidence for universe size. Subcon also is both large enough to contain starry skies and has Subspace as a parallel dimension. "Parallel" by definition means of similar size and shape that exists next to each other. If something is parallel to an entire universe or a structure the size of a universe, it is another universe. It makes 0 says for some 4-A or 3-B sized pocket realities to be parallel to "An Endless Universe". Also, dreams have been shown to have their own flow of time compared to the real world in SMB2. Throughout SMB2, it is implied multiple days passed with as some stages take place during the day while others at night. And I highly doubt they lapped the Subcon's version of Earth multiple times before reaching Wart's Tower as that is where they been headed from the beginning. Likewise, a single night passed in the Waking World.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus I respect the fact that you're busy, but I will have to ask you to look again at my comment once you have the time in the future. I can wait.
 
Pretty sure we deliberately went out of the way to avoid using the official Prima Guide or Nintendo Power, as the former isn't allowed at all while the latter is very dubiously canon.
Wellll we use the Super Mario Bros. 2 Inside Out tip book to prove that the dream world Subcon holds a universe for Wart's low multi range, and its from people at Nintendo (of America, who originally released the game, unlike say the case with the Super Paper Mario localization and NP guides not being the original text) who provided the tips according to the same books and the Official Encyclopedia they released outright calls Subcon a dream world in its own right. Why would you say that guide wouldn't be applicable here?

Here are the scans of the guides in question:

http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Wiki...Inside_Out_-_Super_Power_Tip_Book,_Part_I.pdf

 
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The feat is just in the ending of SMG1. You could maybe argue Multi-Galaxy for them but itd need calculations and more supporting it than just that one feat imho.

I do think that depending on how this downgrade goes, you could argue Multi-Galaxy for some things, as a lot of the verses' Uni-Multi arguments would get bumped down a quantity of MSS & Galaxy stuff.

I'll look into if I'll look into Multi Galaxy upgrades at all depending on how these downgrades pan down at all.
Speaking of which, I planned on making a CRT for upgrading all the Mario Bros characters to 3-B. I was thinking... maybe the Power Stars could be used as multipliers for Mario's Power Star key.
 
It'd probably be best to make a new thread handling the issue of void scaling separately; Most staff have already stated their neutrality on that, and Kirb has been losing interest in the wiki lately.
 
It'd probably be best to make a new thread handling the issue of void scaling separately; Most staff have already stated their neutrality on that, and Kirb has been losing interest in the wiki lately.
Yeah, I'd really rather move the Void stuff to a separate thread. This one has already gone on for 3 pages and isn't going to pull much more in terms of admin intervention. I think it'd be best if Fuji and I made a second post regarding exclusively the Void & Dream Depot Cosmology stuff since it seems to be the most contentious.

My life is getting a lot more busy atm and Fuji is right, I'm losing a lot of interest in the wiki overtime for a variety of reasons. But I do intend to at least see this downgrade I started to whatever end it reaches in spite of everything.
 
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