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WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revisions (M&L Brothership Spoilers) - Part 1 (Feat-Gathering)

I think it'd be the same value as Donkey Kong's. I think I actually checked if the timeframes were different but I don't really remember.
 
Reminds me that there's a fodder Bob-omb feat (Or Bob-omb species? Mini Bomb or something?), where it blows upon a hole in a mine's rock wall big enough to walk through in Super Mario RPG. May be worth looking into for fodder.
 
I think it’d be beneficial if we got a consensus on what Ghengiroo115 and Accelerated Evolution were talking about regarding the growth in power Mario games seem to have, and (if we were to go with it) how exactly would we split up the keys for Mario and the rest of the cast?
 
Yeah Partners in Time and most of the Yoshi games just throw a big ol' wrench into all of it. Plus with the series loose continuity how would we even do a key split? Sure the M&L games are easy since each game takes place after the previous one, but then where would, I dunno, Yoshi's New Island fit into that? Sure we can assume that between the past and present in PIT there's not too much growth in power before getting massive jumps from BIS onwards, but if Yoshi's New Island is lumped with the post PIT M&L games than that would prevent any tier jumps since it'd end up scaling back to the baby characters since, while evidently weaker, Baby Bowser is still in the same general ballpark as his adult self.
 
IDK3465 said:
I think it’d be beneficial if we got a consensus on what Ghengiroo115 and Accelerated Evolution were talking about regarding the growth in power Mario games seem to have, and (if we were to go with it) how exactly would we split up the keys for Mario and the rest of the cast?
Click to expand...
Psychomaster35 said:
Pretty sure for every RPG game with a level up system that releases (Basically starting with Super Mario RPG), we can just split the keys from there for simplicity sake
Click to expand...
It would all depend on what the final consensus on scaling is, but if we go the High 6-A Crystal Star route then personally speaking their last keys should be either “Post-Dream Team” or “Post-Paper Jam” (Not proposing those exact names, and which one depends on whether we only consider them getting stronger when a level up system is involved or just in general). I’m not sure what the other keys would cover though, as there’s notable speed increases between the two 6-C feats we currently use (Superstar Saga has a FTL+ feat while the Galaxy games have most of the MFTL+ stuff). Not entirely sure what characters before SMRPG would scale to (assuming it’s not just level systems that matter).

Fodder would also need their own keys as well since in Brothership it’s stated they’re constantly training to fight the Mario Bros, though I think they’d only need two or three keys as an early Captain Goomba in Minion Quest has a 9-B feat and Monty Mole has a 8-C feat in Strikers Charged. Or we just downscale them from the main cast as god intended

As said before though it heavily depends on what the scaling ends up becoming, and also on whether we even go the multiple keys route as it’s not exactly airtight. Speaking of which…

Dust_Collector said:
Yeah Partners in Time and most of the Yoshi games just throw a big ol' wrench into all of it. Plus with the series loose continuity how would we even do a key split? Sure the M&L games are easy since each game takes place after the previous one, but then where would, I dunno, Yoshi's New Island fit into that? Sure we can assume that between the past and present in PIT there's not too much growth in power before getting massive jumps from BIS onwards, but if Yoshi's New Island is lumped with the post PIT M&L games than that would prevent any tier jumps since it'd end up scaling back to the baby characters since, while evidently weaker, Baby Bowser is still in the same general ballpark as his adult self.
Click to expand...
Yup, it’s a complicated issue. On the one hand, give the characters multiple keys and it contradicts all the times the baby characters show themselves on par with the adult ones. However on the other hand, the baby characters being constantly comparable is contradicted by multiple statements or showings of the characters growing stronger over time. While I do still lean towards the multiple keys side, I do agree that the time travel stuff is a big wrench in all of it and I don’t really mind which route we go for.

Perhaps it would be best to get a proper collection of power growth arguments and then decide what should be prioritised? Any discussion about multiple keys is kinda pointless until we’ve actually decided on what feats are valid anyway, so that would give time to compile any evidence.
 
I played the Diddy and DK moon feats side by side and there is no timeframe difference, IDK if it’s worth it to calc
 
TartaChocholate said:
How about Mario punting a castle in Super Mario World? It does have a calc, but it's from an external site and from 2014. Maybe it could be worth checking again?
Click to expand...
I was actually thinking that we can use that feat for an SMB to Mario RPG key or something along those lines.

Again, we should probably wait a bit before splitting up the keys, I just wanted to put the idea out there.
 
Parzival-Bo said:
So...what, we just ignore it entirely then? Seems kinda arbitrary, but whatever.

Just the single line of dialogue saying it "can freeze even the sun", sadly. No further details exist.
Click to expand...
Well in the japanese, the statement is explicitly unconfirmed conjecture so take that as you will. It might not actually be true.
CloverDragon03 said:
The general trend of the translations is that the stones rival the power of the stars (plural to plural). I know this is very subjective but that kinda suggests to me that the equivalent of this is singular to singular, that being that one of these is equivalent to the power of one star. Not ironclad, but it's kinda what seems intuitive from my view
Click to expand...
It's more like, someone who's an underling of Shadow Queen, probably Bellum (though it explicitly uses a word for "we/us", so it wasn't just one entity), made vessels (the Crystal Stars), and then imbued the light of stars within the night sky within them.
Like, here's one of the japanese yap line that tells us it's multiple stars, it means light, and the stones acted as just shit to shove the energy into.

天より おつる 星のかがやき 天の ことわりを しり 星の ことわりを しり ワザを もって 石に やどす 星のチカラが やどりし 石を 七つ すべてを つくりしは おお いだいなる われらが ヤミと カゲの あるじよ
Which is something like

"The radiance of the stars falls from the heavens.
Understanding the order of the heavens,
Understanding the order of the stars,
We imbue stones with our craft.
The stones imbued with the power of the stars,
All seven were created by us,
Oh, great and mighty ruler of Darkness and Shadow."

(Written like this in the scan btw, feel like that's important to convey given some lines focus on specific details).

It's 100% plural stars. You COULD translate it as "falling stars" btw, but that's kind of ratty.
I'm just putting it out there to showcase how ******* annoying doing the whole ass game is. As an fyi, order can be "law", or rule or whatever.
And "radiance", かがやき (kagayaki) literally means a quality of light that is bright, vivid, etc, specifically it conveys a sense of illumination or brilliance that is noticeable and awe-inspiring, as opposed to mundane light like idk, a ******* lightbulb? It's supposed to evoke feelings of awe or beauty or whatever and is commonly used for things like the stars and the sun (can be used for other stuff too but ya know, or be used in a slightly abstract way but, I don't think I need to explain why that isn't the case here). Anyway yeah, the word can be translated as brilliance, light (though it doesn't convey the "awe" part of it very well in english), radiance, and a few more but I just want to stress that we're very much talking about light here, the lumionsity of the stars.

I'm gonna be hyper anal here and explain just what this one scan being translated entailed, and why I'm super confident in stating things a specific way due to the specific japanese word having specific connotations.

To breakdown just this ONE scan you need to like remember japanese is a subject-object-verb (SOV) language, unlike english, which is subject-verb-object (SVO). Now I say this because "brilliance of the falling stars" could be an accurate translation depending on context, it'd be weird and kinda odd, but not impossible. But what I did aligns with japanese's usual "subject + verb" schtick, so like, subject - 星のかがやき (the radiance of the stars) + verb - おつる (falls).

Something like "The brilliance of falling stars" involves a slightly more nuanced reading where 星の (of the stars) modifies both "falling" and "radiance." This is grammatically valid but adds an additional layer of interpretation, which, obviously, kind of trying to ******* avoid, especially since 星 (stars) is not explicitly stated as the grammatical subject. Instead, おつる (falling) is treated as a relative clause modifying 星 (stars).

Now, this is written like a poem, which often focuses on abstract shit, (light, radiance, beauty, etc) rather than the physical objects causing them. In this case the radiance itself being described as "falling" would fit with the metaphorical style typical of classical jap shit. Which isn't omega important but it's there.

There's also the ambiguity of shit, without further context, Japanese text often emphasizes the most immediately visible or significant element which here is the かがやき (radiance). The 星 (stars) act more as a descriptor of the radiance, not the central object of action and while stars falling (like meteors) is a common visual and doubly so in Mario (like, literally last game my dudes), their "radiance" (かがやき) is typically what gets described in a poetic sense.

Now context is a thing too, while often gassed up beyond how it actually is, context CAN change how you intepret shit in japanese, and like, multiple yaps show the night sky and stars in the sky so.... And this scan is the scan with the night sky backdrop so...

Yeah very explicitly talking about the night sky's luminosity in just this quote alone.

But the main reason would be as stated, Japanese is a subject-object-verb (SOV) language while english is subject-verb-object (SVO). The verb USUALLY comes at the end, so the relationship between the subject and the verb can feel assbackwards compared to ENG fyi, so verbs in main clauses typically come at the end. However, in modifying clauses, the verb comes before the noun it modifies. In this yap, the verb おつる (to fall) applies to かがやき (radiance) because it directly modifies it, describing what the radiance is doing. The radiance is also specified as being 星の (of the stars). Since modifiers in come before the nouns they describe, the "falling from the heavens" and "of the stars" both serve to describe the radiance at the end of the sentence.

To break even that shit down and explain how that works, 星の (hoshi no) is a possessive phrase meaning "of the stars." It modifies かがやき (kagayaki, radiance). おつる (otsuru), a relative clause meaning "falling"also modifies かがやき (kagayaki, radiance). So, the noun かがやき (kagayaki, radiance) is being described as it belonging to the stars (星の) and also Falling (おつる), when combined it changes it to "The radiance of the stars falling from the heavens". then we got particles, which work to clarify shit, in this poemy thingy it'd be 天より (ten yori) where 天 (ten) which is heavens/sky, and the より (yori) which indicates the origin or source of shit, which we'd just translate as "from" (I mean I guess you could translate it as like "originating" but you'd still need to say "originating FROM" or "sourced FROM" for it to make sense so it's just a extra word added just because which is stupid). But together it becomes "From the heavens/sky."

Next bit is stars, 星の (hoshi no) where 星 (hoshi) in this context is star (obviously, this line in particular comes from a ******* planetarium talking about the night sky and uses starry night skies as a backdrop), の (no) which is a possessive particle (kinda like in english how you add "'s" to signify ownership ig?) meaning "of" Which combined becomes of "of the stars" (Like Kirby of the Stars for an example, Hoshi no Kirby).
The main noun かがやき (kagayaki) meaning "radiance" or "brilliance" or whatever as elaborated above, and おつる (otsuru), again, a relative clause that modifies かがやき (radiance) to mean it's falling, in this contetx, onto the earth from the night sky.
The main problem here, is to find the main noun and identify what modifies that shit, in this sentence the main noun is かがやき (radiance), and as such, both 星の (of the stars) and おつる (falling) modify it, we know this due to japanese sentence structure being SOV so the main shit comes last usually.
So, falling applies to the radiance, not the stars directly. Stars are only part of the description of the radiance.

Which is double important actually, I feel like this should be mentioned because I think ya'll goons focusing on the wrong thing here. The yap ISN'T focusing on the STAR aspect, but rather the LIGHT (worded as the radiance/brilliance) of the stars. The star facet of it acts as a descriptor of the light, NOT the main subject of the sentence.

After we figure all this shit out, we reorganize it so it flows in english (as mentioned japanese is SOV, it's essentially BACKWARDS compared to english, the japanese is literally backward, if translated each word exactly as palced in japanese it'd read like "From the heavens falling of stars radiance" or some dumb shit). Anyway, we reorder this shit to match SVO grammar. Starting with the main noun (radiance) and working backward.

かがやき (radiance) becomes "the radiance"
星の (of the stars) becomes uh "of the stars"
おつる (falling) becomes uhm "falling"
天より (from the heavens) yeah so "from the heavens"

"The radiance/brilliance of the stars falling from the heavens".

That is ONE ******* LINE of text, so if any of you bozos going "damn why is bro taking so long", that would be ******* why. Like I can translate shit, I can read a lil even at a glance and get the basic gist of it don't ask why, but if I'm going to actively dissect that linguistics used for the most accurate translation possible, it's gonna take time, especially given this wiki tends to be hyperanal about translations. As evidenced here were someone could have easily translated the sentence to be "falling stars" instead without taking in context, proper sentence structure, how modifiers and stuff works in japanese that simply don't exist in english and thus not something someone would usually factor in, etc.

But because I'm here, may as well elaborate on another important part.
This scan also mentions it, "ワザを もって 石に やどす" tells us that the Crystal Stars don't JUST have power that just so happens to be like the stars, but rather specifically, had the radiance of the stars shoved in them to empower them.
ワザ (waza) means means "technique" or "skill", in the sense of an intentional deliberate method or craft. It implies the use of a deliberate and practiced action basically. I went with "craft" tho because like, they're talking about witches, so like, witchcraft. That's just my personal take but it's basically a refined method.
を (wo) is an object marker that tells us ワザ (technique) is the direct object of the action もって (using) below.
もって (motte) is just a classic/formal expression of "using" or "with" (so "with technique" or "using technique", same shit). It signifies that the technique in question is the means by which the action is done. This word often has a deliberate, almost ceremonial nuance in literary or poetic contexts, which, while it don't matter for powerscaling brainrot, IS kinda interesting when factored in with the end of the yap. It makes me think bellum made the ******* crystal stars, but the connotations of this form of "using" and the above word for "technique", implicates an almost ritualistic method, which double makes me think witchcraft shit.
石 (いし, ishi) which is just "stone." In this context tho, it refers to a physical object being acted upon (as in, the technique is being used on the stone, as in the Crystal Star vessel).
に (ni), which is a directional particle. This tells us the target or destination of an action. In this case, 石に (to the "stone") which tells us the stone is the recipient or container of the action being described. this is kind of super important, it DIRECTLY implicates a moving of something, in this context, it'd be the falling radiance of the stars being moved from Point A to Point B (the stone).
やどす (yadosu), now this is also an important part, that verb means "to lodge", "to house", or "to imbue".
It implies placing or causing something (like a power, spirit, or essence, or in this case, the radiance of the stars) to reside or take up residence within something else, in this sentence, the stone. It carries the nuance of intentionally transferring or instilling something into a new location, with like a perm or significant implications tho. Which when combined with the directional particle, hard confirms they taking energy and just shoving it in the rocks.

The naunces here of these specific string of words in japanese suggests not just physically placing something. It implies transferring a non-material quality (the radiance here) into something so that it resides or becomes an inherent part of it and as such this is why "imbue" works imo.
Now the に particle indicates direction/target of the action (the witchcraft technique). In this context, 石に (to the stone) specifically means that the action of imbuing or transferring is being directed into the stone. The nuance here is not merely placing something on or near the stone, but ensuring that the action affects the interior or essence of the stone.

A few alt ways you could take it as is shit like "Cause to dwell within the stone.", "House within the stone.", "Lodge into the stone." (this one is ******* dumb tho but like, technically words do mean that).
Either way, it emphasizes the act of placing something noteworthy (like the radiance ofthe stars) within the stone in a meaningful, lasting way.

Now I've basically said the same thing like 5 times but I really want to stress this, this one line alone tells us that the stone, is just a vessel, a container, it doesn't INHERENTLY have that power. Rather "they", probably Bellum given the lore, used a ritualistic technique to take the power of the stars, which in this context elaborates on it being the luminosity energy, and took that energy and placed it within the Crystal Stars to act as a source of power.

A few things to note is that, obviously, she didn't drain the stars dry, they still exist, still light up the sky, whatever, but the power of the Crystal Star's, was taken directly from the actual stars themselves based on other lines, and this line confirms it was more of a transfer of energy. The Crystal Stars, essentially, act like batteries, they've been juiced up and had light "energy" taken from the stars and moved into them as they act as a container for it.
Secondly, if the Crystal Star's power source is simply imbued energy, that's a very finite source. It doesn't create its own energy, power, and the power of the stars doesn't come from the vessel itself, but quite literally because a magic ritual took some of the energy of the night sky and shoved it in a fuckass rock.

For reference, here's some major words that have specific connotations in japanese that might not get across in english.

1. 天 (てん, ten)/"Heaven" or "Sky".
This usually doesn't mean the usual blue cloudy sky tho, but more cosmic, divine, or celestial connotation in poetic or literary contexts (this line is written as a classic poem so... yeah). In Japanese, 天 is usualy used for the realm of gods, fate, or cosmic order.
The stars' radiance comes not just from the physical sky, it can be used in more mystical contexts but here it's talking about the cosmos, the night sky, space, you get it (hence the bolding).
If the literal planetarium with a nightsky backdrop, plus other yap, didn't convey that already. Obviously was used to fit the poem tone tho.

2. ことわり (kotowari)/"Law" or "Principle".
This often gets translated as "law" or "principle" or "order", that type of shit, but ことわり is a classical term that conveys a sense of natural or cosmic truth, an unchanging order that governs existence.
It suggests something like instead of man-made law or rule, and more like "laws of nature" or "universal truths", kind of like Wonder of U and Calamity Flow.
This has nothing to do with powerscaling yap, or the Crystal Stars, but it does mean when they say 天のことわりをしり (knowing the laws of heaven) and 星のことわりをしり (knowing the laws of the stars) it's talking about like, weird metaphysical shit or like natural universal laws.

Might be useful for intel stuff and hax? Might even give them law manip?

3. ワザ (waza)/ "Technique" or "Skill"
Already elaborated but tldr, ワザ is used in a poetic or literary sense to describe an artful or deliberate skill, implying mastery and intentionality, like uh, "master of their craft". it has a sense of craftsmanship or sacred technique, especially when paired with the cosmic yap. Like this isn't just a technique or method, it's almost like a ritual.
4. やどす (yadosu)/"To Imbue" or "To Lodge" or etc.
This conveys not just placing something inside a thing but implies that the essence or spirit of something has been housed or caused to dwell within said thing and is often used in spiritual or metaphysical contexts, suggesting that something intangible (energy, spirit, power) is being instilled which as mentioned like 5 times and how the words all convey ritualistic imbuement shit, yuh huh.
5. おお (oo)/"O" or "Oh"
This doesn't mean shit, is a simple interjection, its use in this text gives the tone a formal, reverential quality (essentially glazing). I just think it's interesting as it's used in poetry or prayer.
6. われらが (warera ga)/"We" or "Us"
われら (warera) is a formal and somewhat archaic pronoun for "we" or "us," often used in elevated speech or ceremonial contexts.
が (ga) marks "we" as the subject, meaning the writers of the text in question is the creators of the crystal stars. The use of this pronoun adds a sense of grandeur, collective identity, and authority too.
7. ヤミとカゲ (yami to kage)/"Darkness and Shadow"
ヤミ (yami) is usually for like a deep, primordial darkness, not just the absence of light but like some spooky ancient cthulu shit. Like Yami from Okami, or Yami Yugi. カゲ (kage) on the other hand, is more about actual shadows. Together, ヤミとカゲ The "Master of Darkness and Shadow" is more mystical and spooky eldrich shit.

Tldr:
天 (heaven) and ことわり (law) suggest a cosmic, divine shit. ワザ (technique) and やどす (imbue) point to a ritualistic process (given it's ******* WITCHES doing this...). われらが (we/us) and ヤミとカゲ (darkness and shadow) emphasize grandeur and connections to mystical spooky stuff.


Now for more opinonated shit. Given it was done via a ritual, we can PROBABLY surmise the amount taken to juice up the rocks, wasn't 1 second, but however long that ritual lasted. If it lasted like 5 minutes, it'd be five minutes worth of night sky energy. Divided by 7 of course. This is WAY the **** beyond High 6-A. Rough estimate that i can't really prove unless I decide to count that shit in game but to give an idea, assuming a few hundred of stars to low thousands, such as what would be visible to a normal person at a glance based on field of view and yadda yadda, you'd be looking at about 5-C for ONE second total.
If that shit took like 5 minutes, it'd be 5-B.
If it took like an hour, etc.
Obviously we can't prove how long it took, but the exact value is kinda impossible to quantify.

Either way the energy they contain is def way beyond High 6-A, but as said, it's a limited power source, which also tells us that when someone amps themselves with it, they aren't using all the energy it contains, as if they did, it'd be done and over with and become just a normal rock.
I don't think you can really say this isn't true "objectively" like you are when fiction doesn't really care about that. And even if you wanted to say that's a copout, which is neither here nor there, keep in mind that the High 6-A value comes from a unit of power, AKA that's how much it's putting out every second. So no, it wouldn't all be expended, because it'll keep putting out that level of energy
Click to expand...

That only works if Crystal Star itself generates or is the source of the power, but the Crystal's power itself is explicitly sourced from the light of the night sky obtained through a ritual, and then they just shoved a bunch of energy in it and called it a day. It's kinda like how the Light of Aether, like yeah Emperor Ing DO be using it to amp himself, but he isn't using all of it at once, given it has juice left still after the fact. The Macho Grubba scene actually kinda serves as visual evidence of that, we like legit see some juice sucked out of the Crystal Star and slapped into him, though the fact Mario already has 3 by that point is a big issue.

Now this might seem like I'm saying they can't really scale to it, and, a lil? There's obv other shit I'm looking at so I'm not saying nuh uh right now, but i do want to point out that the Shadow Queen almost 100% WOULD scale to the collective power of all that shit at once given they were useless aginst here, and even she was using it to simply tack onto her power, she didn't need them, they make that super evident. So even if we low-end it and say 1 second of the night sky's luminosity, she'd probably be tier 5.
TartaChocholate said:
How about Mario punting a castle in Super Mario World? It does have a calc, but it's from an external site and from 2014. Maybe it could be worth checking again?
Click to expand...
Solid 8-A, maybe low 7-C tbh.

Also Dale finished the Koop's KE calc I told him to do KE was my idea because he spits the clouds out
That's High 6-A, so eh, I'm neutral leaning towards ok, would like another tbh, rule of 3 and all, but at least it's there.

For reference though, there being a new High 6-A calc, doesn't suddenly make shit like the Star Rod, Ice Flower, or even Shadow Queen ok, they're still wrong due to context and details.
 
Chariot190 said:
Well in the japanese, the statement is explicitly unconfirmed conjecture so take that as you will. It might not actually be true.
It's more like, someone who's an underling of Shadow Queen, probably Bellum (though it explicitly uses a word for "we/us", so it wasn't just one entity), made vessels (the Crystal Stars), and then imbued the light of stars within the night sky within them.
Like, here's one of the japanese yap line that tells us it's multiple stars, it means light, and the stones acted as just shit to shove the energy into.

天より おつる 星のかがやき 天の ことわりを しり 星の ことわりを しり ワザを もって 石に やどす 星のチカラが やどりし 石を 七つ すべてを つくりしは おお いだいなる われらが ヤミと カゲの あるじよ
Which is something like

"The radiance of the stars falls from the heavens.
Understanding the order of the heavens,
Understanding the order of the stars,
We imbue stones with our craft.
The stones imbued with the power of the stars,
All seven were created by us,
Oh, great and mighty ruler of Darkness and Shadow."

(Written like this in the scan btw, feel like that's important to convey given some lines focus on specific details).

It's 100% plural stars. You COULD translate it as "falling stars" btw, but that's kind of ratty.
I'm just putting it out there to showcase how ******* annoying doing the whole ass game is. As an fyi, order can be "law", or rule or whatever.
And "radiance", かがやき (kagayaki) literally means a quality of light that is bright, vivid, etc, specifically it conveys a sense of illumination or brilliance that is noticeable and awe-inspiring, as opposed to mundane light like idk, a ******* lightbulb? It's supposed to evoke feelings of awe or beauty or whatever and is commonly used for things like the stars and the sun (can be used for other stuff too but ya know, or be used in a slightly abstract way but, I don't think I need to explain why that isn't the case here). Anyway yeah, the word can be translated as brilliance, light (though it doesn't convey the "awe" part of it very well in english), radiance, and a few more but I just want to stress that we're very much talking about light here, the lumionsity of the stars.

I'm gonna be hyper anal here and explain just what this one scan being translated entailed, and why I'm super confident in stating things a specific way due to the specific japanese word having specific connotations.

To breakdown just this ONE scan you need to like remember japanese is a subject-object-verb (SOV) language, unlike english, which is subject-verb-object (SVO). Now I say this because "brilliance of the falling stars" could be an accurate translation depending on context, it'd be weird and kinda odd, but not impossible. But what I did aligns with japanese's usual "subject + verb" schtick, so like, subject - 星のかがやき (the radiance of the stars) + verb - おつる (falls).

Something like "The brilliance of falling stars" involves a slightly more nuanced reading where 星の (of the stars) modifies both "falling" and "radiance." This is grammatically valid but adds an additional layer of interpretation, which, obviously, kind of trying to ******* avoid, especially since 星 (stars) is not explicitly stated as the grammatical subject. Instead, おつる (falling) is treated as a relative clause modifying 星 (stars).

Now, this is written like a poem, which often focuses on abstract shit, (light, radiance, beauty, etc) rather than the physical objects causing them. In this case the radiance itself being described as "falling" would fit with the metaphorical style typical of classical jap shit. Which isn't omega important but it's there.

There's also the ambiguity of shit, without further context, Japanese text often emphasizes the most immediately visible or significant element which here is the かがやき (radiance). The 星 (stars) act more as a descriptor of the radiance, not the central object of action and while stars falling (like meteors) is a common visual and doubly so in Mario (like, literally last game my dudes), their "radiance" (かがやき) is typically what gets described in a poetic sense.

Now context is a thing too, while often gassed up beyond how it actually is, context CAN change how you intepret shit in japanese, and like, multiple yaps show the night sky and stars in the sky so.... And this scan is the scan with the night sky backdrop so...

Yeah very explicitly talking about the night sky's luminosity in just this quote alone.

But the main reason would be as stated, Japanese is a subject-object-verb (SOV) language while english is subject-verb-object (SVO). The verb USUALLY comes at the end, so the relationship between the subject and the verb can feel assbackwards compared to ENG fyi, so verbs in main clauses typically come at the end. However, in modifying clauses, the verb comes before the noun it modifies. In this yap, the verb おつる (to fall) applies to かがやき (radiance) because it directly modifies it, describing what the radiance is doing. The radiance is also specified as being 星の (of the stars). Since modifiers in come before the nouns they describe, the "falling from the heavens" and "of the stars" both serve to describe the radiance at the end of the sentence.

To break even that shit down and explain how that works, 星の (hoshi no) is a possessive phrase meaning "of the stars." It modifies かがやき (kagayaki, radiance). おつる (otsuru), a relative clause meaning "falling"also modifies かがやき (kagayaki, radiance). So, the noun かがやき (kagayaki, radiance) is being described as it belonging to the stars (星の) and also Falling (おつる), when combined it changes it to "The radiance of the stars falling from the heavens". then we got particles, which work to clarify shit, in this poemy thingy it'd be 天より (ten yori) where 天 (ten) which is heavens/sky, and the より (yori) which indicates the origin or source of shit, which we'd just translate as "from" (I mean I guess you could translate it as like "originating" but you'd still need to say "originating FROM" or "sourced FROM" for it to make sense so it's just a extra word added just because which is stupid). But together it becomes "From the heavens/sky."

Next bit is stars, 星の (hoshi no) where 星 (hoshi) in this context is star (obviously, this line in particular comes from a ******* planetarium talking about the night sky and uses starry night skies as a backdrop), の (no) which is a possessive particle (kinda like in english how you add "'s" to signify ownership ig?) meaning "of" Which combined becomes of "of the stars" (Like Kirby of the Stars for an example, Hoshi no Kirby).
The main noun かがやき (kagayaki) meaning "radiance" or "brilliance" or whatever as elaborated above, and おつる (otsuru), again, a relative clause that modifies かがやき (radiance) to mean it's falling, in this contetx, onto the earth from the night sky.
The main problem here, is to find the main noun and identify what modifies that shit, in this sentence the main noun is かがやき (radiance), and as such, both 星の (of the stars) and おつる (falling) modify it, we know this due to japanese sentence structure being SOV so the main shit comes last usually.
So, falling applies to the radiance, not the stars directly. Stars are only part of the description of the radiance.

Which is double important actually, I feel like this should be mentioned because I think ya'll goons focusing on the wrong thing here. The yap ISN'T focusing on the STAR aspect, but rather the LIGHT (worded as the radiance/brilliance) of the stars. The star facet of it acts as a descriptor of the light, NOT the main subject of the sentence.

After we figure all this shit out, we reorganize it so it flows in english (as mentioned japanese is SOV, it's essentially BACKWARDS compared to english, the japanese is literally backward, if translated each word exactly as palced in japanese it'd read like "From the heavens falling of stars radiance" or some dumb shit). Anyway, we reorder this shit to match SVO grammar. Starting with the main noun (radiance) and working backward.

かがやき (radiance) becomes "the radiance"
星の (of the stars) becomes uh "of the stars"
おつる (falling) becomes uhm "falling"
天より (from the heavens) yeah so "from the heavens"

"The radiance/brilliance of the stars falling from the heavens".

That is ONE ******* LINE of text, so if any of you bozos going "damn why is bro taking so long", that would be ******* why. Like I can translate shit, I can read a lil even at a glance and get the basic gist of it don't ask why, but if I'm going to actively dissect that linguistics used for the most accurate translation possible, it's gonna take time, especially given this wiki tends to be hyperanal about translations. As evidenced here were someone could have easily translated the sentence to be "falling stars" instead without taking in context, proper sentence structure, how modifiers and stuff works in japanese that simply don't exist in english and thus not something someone would usually factor in, etc.

But because I'm here, may as well elaborate on another important part.
This scan also mentions it, "ワザを もって 石に やどす" tells us that the Crystal Stars don't JUST have power that just so happens to be like the stars, but rather specifically, had the radiance of the stars shoved in them to empower them.
ワザ (waza) means means "technique" or "skill", in the sense of an intentional deliberate method or craft. It implies the use of a deliberate and practiced action basically. I went with "craft" tho because like, they're talking about witches, so like, witchcraft. That's just my personal take but it's basically a refined method.
を (wo) is an object marker that tells us ワザ (technique) is the direct object of the action もって (using) below.
もって (motte) is just a classic/formal expression of "using" or "with" (so "with technique" or "using technique", same shit). It signifies that the technique in question is the means by which the action is done. This word often has a deliberate, almost ceremonial nuance in literary or poetic contexts, which, while it don't matter for powerscaling brainrot, IS kinda interesting when factored in with the end of the yap. It makes me think bellum made the ******* crystal stars, but the connotations of this form of "using" and the above word for "technique", implicates an almost ritualistic method, which double makes me think witchcraft shit.
石 (いし, ishi) which is just "stone." In this context tho, it refers to a physical object being acted upon (as in, the technique is being used on the stone, as in the Crystal Star vessel).
に (ni), which is a directional particle. This tells us the target or destination of an action. In this case, 石に (to the "stone") which tells us the stone is the recipient or container of the action being described. this is kind of super important, it DIRECTLY implicates a moving of something, in this context, it'd be the falling radiance of the stars being moved from Point A to Point B (the stone).
やどす (yadosu), now this is also an important part, that verb means "to lodge", "to house", or "to imbue".
It implies placing or causing something (like a power, spirit, or essence, or in this case, the radiance of the stars) to reside or take up residence within something else, in this sentence, the stone. It carries the nuance of intentionally transferring or instilling something into a new location, with like a perm or significant implications tho. Which when combined with the directional particle, hard confirms they taking energy and just shoving it in the rocks.

The naunces here of these specific string of words in japanese suggests not just physically placing something. It implies transferring a non-material quality (the radiance here) into something so that it resides or becomes an inherent part of it and as such this is why "imbue" works imo.
Now the に particle indicates direction/target of the action (the witchcraft technique). In this context, 石に (to the stone) specifically means that the action of imbuing or transferring is being directed into the stone. The nuance here is not merely placing something on or near the stone, but ensuring that the action affects the interior or essence of the stone.

A few alt ways you could take it as is shit like "Cause to dwell within the stone.", "House within the stone.", "Lodge into the stone." (this one is ******* dumb tho but like, technically words do mean that).
Either way, it emphasizes the act of placing something noteworthy (like the radiance ofthe stars) within the stone in a meaningful, lasting way.

Now I've basically said the same thing like 5 times but I really want to stress this, this one line alone tells us that the stone, is just a vessel, a container, it doesn't INHERENTLY have that power. Rather "they", probably Bellum given the lore, used a ritualistic technique to take the power of the stars, which in this context elaborates on it being the luminosity energy, and took that energy and placed it within the Crystal Stars to act as a source of power.

A few things to note is that, obviously, she didn't drain the stars dry, they still exist, still light up the sky, whatever, but the power of the Crystal Star's, was taken directly from the actual stars themselves based on other lines, and this line confirms it was more of a transfer of energy. The Crystal Stars, essentially, act like batteries, they've been juiced up and had light "energy" taken from the stars and moved into them as they act as a container for it.
Secondly, if the Crystal Star's power source is simply imbued energy, that's a very finite source. It doesn't create its own energy, power, and the power of the stars doesn't come from the vessel itself, but quite literally because a magic ritual took some of the energy of the night sky and shoved it in a fuckass rock.

For reference, here's some major words that have specific connotations in japanese that might not get across in english.

1. 天 (てん, ten)/"Heaven" or "Sky".
This usually doesn't mean the usual blue cloudy sky tho, but more cosmic, divine, or celestial connotation in poetic or literary contexts (this line is written as a classic poem so... yeah). In Japanese, 天 is usualy used for the realm of gods, fate, or cosmic order.
The stars' radiance comes not just from the physical sky, it can be used in more mystical contexts but here it's talking about the cosmos, the night sky, space, you get it (hence the bolding).
If the literal planetarium with a nightsky backdrop, plus other yap, didn't convey that already. Obviously was used to fit the poem tone tho.

2. ことわり (kotowari)/"Law" or "Principle".
This often gets translated as "law" or "principle" or "order", that type of shit, but ことわり is a classical term that conveys a sense of natural or cosmic truth, an unchanging order that governs existence.
It suggests something like instead of man-made law or rule, and more like "laws of nature" or "universal truths", kind of like Wonder of U and Calamity Flow.
This has nothing to do with powerscaling yap, or the Crystal Stars, but it does mean when they say 天のことわりをしり (knowing the laws of heaven) and 星のことわりをしり (knowing the laws of the stars) it's talking about like, weird metaphysical shit or like natural universal laws.

Might be useful for intel stuff and hax? Might even give them law manip?

3. ワザ (waza)/ "Technique" or "Skill"
Already elaborated but tldr, ワザ is used in a poetic or literary sense to describe an artful or deliberate skill, implying mastery and intentionality, like uh, "master of their craft". it has a sense of craftsmanship or sacred technique, especially when paired with the cosmic yap. Like this isn't just a technique or method, it's almost like a ritual.
4. やどす (yadosu)/"To Imbue" or "To Lodge" or etc.
This conveys not just placing something inside a thing but implies that the essence or spirit of something has been housed or caused to dwell within said thing and is often used in spiritual or metaphysical contexts, suggesting that something intangible (energy, spirit, power) is being instilled which as mentioned like 5 times and how the words all convey ritualistic imbuement shit, yuh huh.
5. おお (oo)/"O" or "Oh"
This doesn't mean shit, is a simple interjection, its use in this text gives the tone a formal, reverential quality (essentially glazing). I just think it's interesting as it's used in poetry or prayer.
6. われらが (warera ga)/"We" or "Us"
われら (warera) is a formal and somewhat archaic pronoun for "we" or "us," often used in elevated speech or ceremonial contexts.
が (ga) marks "we" as the subject, meaning the writers of the text in question is the creators of the crystal stars. The use of this pronoun adds a sense of grandeur, collective identity, and authority too.
7. ヤミとカゲ (yami to kage)/"Darkness and Shadow"
ヤミ (yami) is usually for like a deep, primordial darkness, not just the absence of light but like some spooky ancient cthulu shit. Like Yami from Okami, or Yami Yugi. カゲ (kage) on the other hand, is more about actual shadows. Together, ヤミとカゲ The "Master of Darkness and Shadow" is more mystical and spooky eldrich shit.

Tldr:
天 (heaven) and ことわり (law) suggest a cosmic, divine shit. ワザ (technique) and やどす (imbue) point to a ritualistic process (given it's ******* WITCHES doing this...). われらが (we/us) and ヤミとカゲ (darkness and shadow) emphasize grandeur and connections to mystical spooky stuff.


Now for more opinonated shit. Given it was done via a ritual, we can PROBABLY surmise the amount taken to juice up the rocks, wasn't 1 second, but however long that ritual lasted. If it lasted like 5 minutes, it'd be five minutes worth of night sky energy. Divided by 7 of course. This is WAY the **** beyond High 6-A. Rough estimate that i can't really prove unless I decide to count that shit in game but to give an idea, assuming a few hundred of stars to low thousands, such as what would be visible to a normal person at a glance based on field of view and yadda yadda, you'd be looking at about 5-C for ONE second total.
If that shit took like 5 minutes, it'd be 5-B.
If it took like an hour, etc.
Obviously we can't prove how long it took, but the exact value is kinda impossible to quantify.

Either way the energy they contain is def way beyond High 6-A, but as said, it's a limited power source, which also tells us that when someone amps themselves with it, they aren't using all the energy it contains, as if they did, it'd be done and over with and become just a normal rock.


That only works if Crystal Star itself generates or is the source of the power, but the Crystal's power itself is explicitly sourced from the light of the night sky obtained through a ritual, and then they just shoved a bunch of energy in it and called it a day. It's kinda like how the Light of Aether, like yeah Emperor Ing DO be using it to amp himself, but he isn't using all of it at once, given it has juice left still after the fact. The Macho Grubba scene actually kinda serves as visual evidence of that, we like legit see some juice sucked out of the Crystal Star and slapped into him, though the fact Mario already has 3 by that point is a big issue.

Now this might seem like I'm saying they can't really scale to it, and, a lil? There's obv other shit I'm looking at so I'm not saying nuh uh right now, but i do want to point out that the Shadow Queen almost 100% WOULD scale to the collective power of all that shit at once given they were useless aginst here, and even she was using it to simply tack onto her power, she didn't need them, they make that super evident. So even if we low-end it and say 1 second of the night sky's luminosity, she'd probably be tier 5.

Solid 8-A, maybe low 7-C tbh.

Also Dale finished the Koop's KE calc I told him to do KE was my idea because he spits the clouds out
That's High 6-A, so eh, I'm neutral leaning towards ok, would like another tbh, rule of 3 and all, but at least it's there.

For reference though, there being a new High 6-A calc, doesn't suddenly make shit like the Star Rod, Ice Flower, or even Shadow Queen ok, they're still wrong due to context and details.
Click to expand...
Law Manip!??
bellebows-tiktok.gif

Chariot190 said:
Also Dale finished the Koop's KE calc I told him to do KE was my idea because he spits the clouds out
Click to expand...
ShakeResounding said:
Don't be sorry, thank you for the incredible work despite the fact that you owed me nothing.

Thank you VERY much, Dale!
Click to expand...
🫡No problem, keep em coming if ya have anything else... sucks the brothership map split doesn't look too impressive that sounded like a good feat at first
 
CloverDragon03 said:
GREAT GOOGLY MOOGLY, TIER 5???
Click to expand...
I laughed harder than I should have, bro you got me dying ☠
(For reference, I support the 5-C end, I think the KE makes sense here but the low-end's timeframe makes more sense)
Click to expand...
Noted. I will jot in the OP that, for now, it seems the 5-C end is more accurate (I'm taking your word because I only averaged a C in Math)
OrangeFR said:
That’s 2 tier 5s with the Crystal Stars thing and The Inside Story (Tier 5 base Mario????)
Click to expand...
Issue with Crystal Stars is that a new blog would have to be created at minimum to truly dissect what is the MOST accurate for it. As of now, I don't think anybody is really adamant to do so.
 
OrangeFR said:
That’s 2 tier 5s with the Crystal Stars thing and The Inside Story (Tier 5 base Mario????)
Click to expand...
Literally no.
Gonna also have to say that 5-C timeframe kinda straight up wrong.

It isn't "just different angles", we see it progress from up close, to Toad Town, to the muschroom kingdom, etc.

We know it isn't just different angles as in the Toad Town scene, the castle is already spewing clouds with the Toads watching on for several seconds, and in the map zoomout, that whole chunk of the map is already covered.

If it was simply different angles, each zoom out wouldn't start with the area the last scene shown already engulfed.

This doesn't get into the fact that the time frame for each is different, clearly showing a discrepency in time between each.

KE is fine, KE is cool I was the dude who said do KE, but the timeframe here is beyond generous and doesn't even check out with the actual scene. Use the full like 25 seconds.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I thought the Dark Bowser storm was retconned into a hurricane in the remake or something?
Click to expand...
They still yap about the whole world covered in darkness shit so it don't really matter. The feat still happens, it's just potrayed way less impressively with the main facet of it happening offscreen.
 
Ah, let's see if Dalesean is available to alter the timeframe some time soon-ish.

Additionally, @Chariot190 I've noted and linked your comment in OP as to why High 6-A Crystal Stars don't work.
 
Chariot190 said:
KE is fine, KE is cool I was the dude who said do KE, but the timeframe here is beyond generous and doesn't even check out with the actual scene. Use the full like 25 seconds.
Click to expand...
Bro the 5-C timeframe is like 31 seconds so isn't that what's being done here? Or is there something I'm missing?

Also while I'm at it, I just realized: shouldn't the radius be half the circumference, not the full thing?
 
ShakeResounding said:
Ah, let's see if Dalesean is available to alter the timeframe some time soon-ish.

Additionally, @Chariot190 I've noted and linked your comment in OP as to why High 6-A Crystal Stars don't work.
Click to expand...
K
for reference tho, Shadow Queen is 100% tier 5 so it ain't all bad, might make a CRT for that myself once I'm done going through the jpn walkthrough.
CloverDragon03 said:
Bro the 5-C timeframe is like 31 seconds so isn't that what's being done here? Or is there something I'm missing?
Click to expand...
That one is actually my bad, Dale's ass wrote it as High 6-A initially.

And the 4 second timeframe came in hours later as like tier 5 so I got them confused.
 
If we’re going with Tier 5 Dark Bowser, wouldn’t regular base Bowser scale, as well as base mario bros since they fight dark bowser? Or would it just be dismissed as an outlier?
 
By the way, to all of you reading this enough to care; bring me any feats you think will help support a high-end Tier 6 rating for the purpose of this thread.

I've said it a few times now, but I am NOT a Mario expert by any stretch of the imagination. @Dalesean027 is allowing me to give him feats to calculate, so I'll actually need some help here instead of wandering blindly through the games to look for something on my lonesome.

You want Mario at a higher tier, folks? Then it's gonna take some feats. And that's all for this PSA
 
ShakeResounding said:
I've said it a few times now, but I am NOT a Mario expert by any stretch of the imagination. @Dalesean027 is allowing me to give him feats to calculate, so I'll actually need some help here instead of wandering blindly through the games to look for something on my lonesome
Click to expand...
This^^^ calcs are only done because chariot and shake are giving them to me, any other feats if you know better ones its up to yall mario goons to get them here so they can be calculated
 
If Tier 5 base Mario does end up as a bust, I really hope we don’t go the Dreamy Bowser route with the Dark Star and only scale him to the feat and not the base cast. For Dreamy Bowser I can kinda see the reasoning, but with the Dark Star we’re talking about a character that loses every one of the like six on-screen confrontations his power’s involved with. Scaling only the Dark Star’s AP to Tier 5 when Bowser is objectively on his level and the Mario Bros. are close is very silly imo, so I feel it would make more sense to just ignore the feat if the time comes.

ShakeResounding said:
By the way, to all of you reading this enough to care; bring me any feats you think will help support a high-end Tier 6 rating for the purpose of this thread.

I've said it a few times now, but I am NOT a Mario expert by any stretch of the imagination. @Dalesean027 is allowing me to give him feats to calculate, so I'll actually need some help here instead of wandering blindly through the games to look for something on my lonesome.

You want Mario at a higher tier, folks? Then it's gonna take some feats. And that's all for this PSA
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I have severe powerscaling brainrot, so I mostly only know of the higher level arguments/feats which I don’t feel like getting into here. Ironically enough the only feats I can think of that might’ve given something interesting either don’t scale to the base cast (Reclusa turning the sky across Concordia red and stormy in Brothership) or aren’t canon (I recall a boss in Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope moving the moon or something like that).
 
Chariot190 said:
It isn't "just different angles", we see it progress from up close, to Toad Town, to the muschroom kingdom, etc.

We know it isn't just different angles as in the Toad Town scene, the castle is already spewing clouds with the Toads watching on for several seconds, and in the map zoomout, that whole chunk of the map is already covered.

If it was simply different angles, each zoom out wouldn't start with the area the last scene shown already engulfed.

This doesn't get into the fact that the time frame for each is different, clearly showing a discrepency in time between each.
Click to expand...
The thing is, the reason why I suggested a high end was because if the speed really was what was calculated, the storm wouldn't be moving that slow visually (Also, if you compare the current distances of the storms between the angles, they don't add up when looked carefully playing through the first frames of each shot [IE. The storm in the shot of Peach's Castle extended around 2.5x the height of the castle roof by the end before the transition yet in the shot of Toad Town the height of the storm is less than the roof in the first few frames if the shot], meaning I find the timeframe shorter than that).
 
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For the Dark Bowser calc, wouldn't it be more accurate to just use the surface area of Earth? Since that's the only area it would need to cover to cover the world in darkness/clouds?
 
Phantom_Falcon said:
For the Dark Bowser calc, wouldn't it be more accurate to just use the surface area of Earth? Since that's the only area it would need to cover to cover the world in darkness/clouds?
Click to expand...
Oh er wait I see what you're saying that would be simpler
 
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