WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revisions (M&L Brothership Spoilers) - Part 1 (Feat-Gathering)

[Mephistus]

I thought the Star Rod thing was invalid since Mario was amped or something?

I don't believe it's 6-A anyhow. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...of_the_Star_Rod?commentId=4400000000003751583

I think it also works better as an amp from gaining the star spirits power directly

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Sorry for the late response, didn't get time to reply earlier

Freezing the surface is made up, they don't say that, why assume it for a funny lower end? It's hiding the outlier, we have rules against that.

I suppose this is fine

But why are you acting like i'm trying to find a illegal way to make Mario High 6-A lol

The whole thing is obviously what they mean, but then we come into the problem of timeframe, how long? The timeframe would effect it and change the value by literally an orders of septillions of times or anything inbetween. And that's if they mean just one attack. There's so little info to work with here it's basically unquantifiable, there doesn't even exist a "low end" because the low end itself could be like 34 million year time, and then all the funny science shit involved. It's useless without more info beyond "damn that shit cold it can freeze thousands to millions of degree temp" stuff.

Talked about this below

A year would be 5980000 yottatons as just a simple basic calc so like....

And? This shouldn't really scale to the characters base stats

I'm still looking into Crystal Star yap in raws some of that shit hard to find, but it's looking good so far?

But I did look into the raws for the Ice Flower yap.

The dude says
"氷を司る花... それは太陽をも凍らすであろう。"

Which translates to "The flower that governs ice... That will likely freeze even the sun."

Evidently, there's a catch here. The dude saying it, is explicitly not stating it as matter of fact. He ends his yap with であろう (de arō), which you'd translate to something like "Likely" or "Probably", "Might", etc, in the sense of formal conjecture. I went with "likely" because it sounds better and matches the tone more in english in how lil bro speaks, rather than it being a higher likelihood over possibly fyi, but what it entails, is simply that of formal conjecture (like that's literally the actual meaning) while leaving room for doubt. The statue thinks it might be the case basically, but stops short of affirming it as factual essentially.

The statement isn't treated as a hard fact, it is simply conjecture that it can even freeze a sun, it might be true, and the statue thinks it could be the case, but doesn't want to state it as a fact because it might also not be true basically.

For reference,
"炎を司る花... それは大氷河をも燃やし...", aka the fire flower yap, is stated as an affirmed fact.
"The flower that governs fire... It burns even great glaciers..."
That other statue simply states it as fact, it can in fact do this thing. Which makes it kinda weird the sun statement is stated as "yeah well it might be true?".

Take that as you will.

A likely rating looks fine on my view then

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

There are any other feats that may reach a value close to the High 6-A ones?

 

[ShakeResounding]

There are any other feats that may reach a value close to the High 6-A ones?

High 6-B from the High 5-A Color Splash fan, but that's after Paper Jam and only really supports the Paper Continuity as you and others have noted.

Not sure about other calcs. Afaik other calcs might be in the making but idek for sure

 

[ShakeResounding]

Okay, so, @Accelerated_Evolution has brought up a fair point to me that this thread has gotten pretty large for new staff coming in to manage.

In the wake of what's accepted in this thread, a follow-up one will be created to note the accepted changes (be it accepted calcs and etc.) before applying them.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Btw:

Feat 4: Paper Mario uses a giant fan to rapidly spin the planet

This feat still needs approval of a calc group member

Also, what have been agreed upon the Shadow Queen feat? Should it scale to Base Paper Mario or not?

 

[Imaginym]

Btw:

This feat still needs approval of a calc group member

Also, what have been agreed upon the Shadow Queen feat? Should it scale to Base Paper Mario or not?

AFAIK, no.

Unfortunately, Mario suffers from "Getting amps against the final bosses" syndrome or just scaling below them. Since he usually doesn't have the amps that let him win afterwards, it means his base form usually not scaling.

In this case, it was apparently the people's cheering empowering the Crystal Stars with Light & stuff, which, along with Peach's power, removed the Shadow Queen's invulnerability, & healed Mario's party.

Plus, The Shadow Queen tells Mario that she was holding back when she was possessing Peach, as she was unaccustomed to that new vessel, & yet that same form is where she effortlessly one-shot vaporized Grodus, a boss that arguably should've been a challenge to Mario.

ARGH.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I kinda got bored of the thread and didn’t open it for a couple days, and somehow the number of pages doubled in that time lmao. High 6-A Crystal Stars seems fair based on what Clover brought up.

However if the thread ends with something like High 6-A for the verse or High 6-B for Colour Splash/Origami King characters (or any other currently unseen option), we’ll probably need an additional thread to properly establish the power creep seen in the verse. Chariot’s right on the money with Mario getting stronger over time and how later feats shouldn’t scale to earlier versions of the characters, however that currently isn’t how the verse is accepted to work aside from young Cranky Kong for some reason. Kinda contradictory to only use the High 6-B feat for CS/OK characters yet still have someone like Wart at 6-C with MFTL+ speed lol

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

However if the thread ends with something like High 6-A for the verse or High 6-B for Colour Splash/Origami King characters (or any other currently unseen option), we’ll probably need an additional thread to properly establish the power creep seen in the verse. Chariot’s right on the money with Mario getting stronger over time and how later feats shouldn’t scale to earlier versions of the characters, however that currently isn’t how the verse is accepted to work. Kinda contradictory to only use the High 6-B feat for CS/OK characters yet still have someone like Wart at 6-C with MFTL+ speed lol

I think the original idea was to make everyone High 6-A and add the High 6-B feat as a support for the Post-Paper Jam Paper Mario characters

Although i agree with Chariot's proposal of Mario getting stronger overtime, as this is showed on the M&L Series

One proposal that came on the Disney Discussion Thread was to divide Mickey's profile in different keys, with each key representing a different era of his character due to consistence between feats of each era reaching an specific tier, maybe we could try something similar for Mario?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I think the original idea was to make everyone High 6-A and add the High 6-B feat as a support for the Post-Paper Jam Paper Mario characters

Although i agree with Chariot's proposal of Mario getting stronger overtime, as this is showed on the M&L Series

Also examples in Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG iirc, but yeah there’s quite a lot supporting it. Brothership in particular blatantly shows later bosses being much more powerful than previous ones in the narrative.

One proposal that came on the Disney Discussion Thread was to divide Mickey's profile in different keys, with each key representing a different era of his character due to consistence between feats of each era reaching an specific tier, maybe we could try something similar to Mario?

Yeah that’s kinda what I was thinking too. As far as I’m aware the last relevant feat used for the current tiers is the DK Moon feat, which gives us a pretty big gap before Paper Jam starts the High 6-A scaling for regular characters (obviously not accounting for any other potential feats).

 

[Spinoirr]

Wouldn't Mario getting stronger solve the anti feat problem we have?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Btw about the “possibly/likely Low 4-C” Ice Flower thing based on new context, I’m personally very iffy on it. While I do agree that the wording ironically makes the statement feel more valid, it’s still a huge jump without anything else to support it (remember the base cast also scale to lower tier power-ups).

Maybe you could do something wacky like using the Great Conductor’s statements to scale Zokket over Power Stars or something, but idk if that argument even works as it’s just a random idea that suddenly popped into my head.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Wouldn't Mario getting stronger solve the anti feat problem we have?

No

The Anti-Feats are presented all across the franchise, independently of the era

Btw about the “possibly/likely Low 4-C” Ice Flower thing based on new context, I’m personally very iffy on it. While I do agree that the wording ironically makes the statement feel more valid, it’s still a huge jump without anything else to support it (remember the base cast also scale to lower tier power-ups).

Why they would scale in AP to a power-up that ins't AP-based at all?

Also, we can give a Cosmic tier for the items that the base cast showed to be comparable to and still don't index them as having cosmic levels of power due to consistence and stuff, the Power Stars are the best example of that

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Why they would scale in AP to a power-up that ins't AP-based at all?

Is it not? Admittedly I’m not fully sure, but I was under the assumption that everyone would scale to it in AP based on how everyone else was talking about it. Maybe I read everyone’s intentions all wrong.

Also, we can give a Cosmic tier for the items that the base cast showed to be comparable to and still don't index them as having cosmic levels of power due to consistence and stuff, the Power Stars are the best example of that

It’s kind of insane that we do that to begin with considering Mario fights beings with Power Star-esque power sources in base in most of their appearances, but yeah that’s true.

However I still feel it’s a bit different in this case given we’re talking about a variant of the Fire Flower, the most common power-up in the franchise aside from the Super Mushroom.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Is it not? Admittedly I’m not fully sure, but I was under the assumption that everyone would scale to it in AP based on how everyone else was talking about it. Maybe I read everyone’s intentions all wrong.

The Original thread's text mentions it being a power-up exclusive addition

No one should scale to it even if this was the original intention tbh

It’s kind of insane that we do that to begin with considering Mario fights beings with Power Star-esque power sources in base in most of their appearances, but yeah that’s true.

Let this to other thread

However I still feel it’s a bit different in this case given we’re talking about a variant of the Fire Flower, the most common power-up in the franchise aside from the Super Mushroom.

And? Like, enduring an attack from the Ice Flower would be rather a resistance to extreme cold than a durability feat

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Don't forget to upgrade the range of the Mario bros due to the Conductor connector

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'm basically just waiting on a few more agreements from admins as a go-ahead for acceptance since it's like 5-3, but I'll start drafting some form of a Part 2 in advance.

 

[Armorchompy]

Once again we're basing upgrades on extremely vague assumptions, which has gotten relatively uncontested because of the thread's length and because like, five sort-of-semi-not-really-viable feats have been brought up, but "power of the stars" could very well mean 4-C in the way it means High 6-A (I assume if people were pushing 4-C and I argued the opposite they would find it disagreeable) and is notably plural, meaning it could very well mean "the stars" as in "all of them" or a significant number of them, which is also a little bit above High 6-A. More notably is the fact that we're just saying this scales to the people it amps but like, why do we say that. We're just assuming there's a mechanic where the full power of this artifact, that is only brought up in literally one line of dialogue and never referred to again, can be fully and freely utilized in every attack of whoever they are amplified by, when we know literally nothing about how it works.

Also notable is that three staff agreements were in the first two pages of the discussion, when there was one feat, with zero elaboration or even attempt to acknowledge the fact that there do be anti-feats, even when that was being discussed at the time.

I also just disagree with the Ice Flower bit. It's a common power-up you can use to fight a bunch of bosses evenly in like fifteen games, pretending that it's a god-tier item that's way above the standard power range is a bit silly.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Once again we're basing upgrades on extremely vague assumptions, which has gotten relatively uncontested because of the thread's length and because like, five sort-of-semi-not-really-viable feats have been brought up, but "power of the stars" could very well mean 4-C in the way it means High 6-A (I assume if people were pushing 4-C and I argued the opposite they would find it disagreeable) and is notably plural, meaning it could very well mean "the stars" as in "all of them" or a significant number of them, which is also a little bit above High 6-A. More notably is the fact that we're just saying this scales to the people it amps but like, why do we say that. We're just assuming there's a mechanic where the full power of this artifact, that is only brought up in literally one line of dialogue and never referred to again, can be fully and freely utilized in every attack of whoever they are amplified by, when we know literally nothing about how it works.

First off, why would this be 4-C? That's a star's GBE, not the actual power it's putting out. It's not like anyone would reasonably argue something like a "power of the planet" statement is 5-B because that's not the power it's putting out.

Second, nice motive assumption. I don't think I should have to say that such a thing's uncalled for, thank you

Third, I'd imagine if it was the power of all of the stars, it'd be something like "power of the stars" (because that's more clearly indicate all of them). This is especially the case considering there are multiple Crystal Stars.

Fourth, when you're drawing on its power for your strength, its full power is naturally gonna become your full power

 

[Spinoirr]

First off, why would this be 4-C? That's a star's GBE, not the actual power it's putting out. It's not like anyone would reasonably argue something like a "power of the planet" statement is 5-B because that's not the power it's putting out.

Second, nice motive assumption. I don't think I should have to say that such a thing's uncalled for, thank you

Third, I'd imagine if it was the power of all of the stars, it'd be something like "power of the stars" (because that's more clearly indicate all of them). This is especially the case considering there are multiple Crystal Stars.

Fourth, when you're drawing on its power for your strength, its full power is naturally gonna become your full power

Does bro know the sun outputs high 6-A levels of energy every second like...

 

[Armorchompy]

Third, I'd imagine if it was the power of all of the stars, it'd be something like "power of the stars"

"A stone that holds the power of the stars." - Chinese version. Japanese says "The power of the stars resides in the stones", which is ambiguous but seems to say the same, and definitely doesn't imply the opposite.

Fourth, when you're drawing on its power for your strength, its full power is naturally gonna become your full power

Downright not true. If you're drawing from the entire power of something, it will be expended the first time you release that much energy. To be amped by an object for prolonged periods of time, you'd need to be only drawing a small fraction of it at a time, like a battery, and that wouldn't scale to High 6-A.

Besides, no, it would not "naturally" become your full power, it's a magic item with zero realism to it, there's nothing "natural" to anything regarding it. How do you know the transition of power is a 1-to-1 thing, and that he can even draw 100% of the power to begin with? We don't know how it works besides "it can be used to power up people". If there's statements of such, sure, but nothing like that has been posted.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

Not to muddle things, but I've calced (and had evaluated and approved) the descriptions for the Fire and Ice Flower statements in Brothership.

Quick summary: Ice Flower is indeed High 6-A, and Fire Flower clocks a comfortable High 6-C+

 

[Armorchompy]

Not to muddle things, but I've calced (and had evaluated and approved) the descriptions for the Fire and Ice Flower statements in Brothership.

Quick summary: Ice Flower is indeed High 6-A, and Fire Flower clocks a comfortable High 6-C+

We've already discussed why using the surface freezing isn't really valid- the Metroid calculation is based on a very specific statement, which isn't a thing here.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

We've already discussed why using the surface freezing isn't really valid- the Metroid calculation is based on a very specific statement, which isn't a thing here.

I didn't use the Metroid one directly, I calced it fresh. I was using it as reference for numbers, that's it.

 

[Armorchompy]

I am aware, but the assumption that only the surface would be frozen is the issue, not the math used.

 

[JJSliderman]

So is there a valid version of the ice flower statement as a number value, and if there is, why not just use that?

 

[Armorchompy]

The one where the entire star is being frozen.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

I am aware, but the assumption that only the surface would be frozen is the issue, not the math used.

So...what, we just ignore it entirely then? Seems kinda arbitrary, but whatever.

So is there a valid version of the ice flower statement as a number value, and if there is, why not just use that?

Just the single line of dialogue saying it "can freeze even the sun", sadly. No further details exist.

 

[JJSliderman]

The one where the entire star is being frozen.

Idk I just think that saying it doesn’t work because “it’s bigger than other numbers” Mario has is unfair.

 

[CloverDragon03]

"A stone that holds the power of the stars." - Chinese version. Japanese says "The power of the stars resides in the stones", which is ambiguous but seems to say the same, and definitely doesn't imply the opposite.

The general trend of the translations is that the stones rival the power of the stars (plural to plural). I know this is very subjective but that kinda suggests to me that the equivalent of this is singular to singular, that being that one of these is equivalent to the power of one star. Not ironclad, but it's kinda what seems intuitive from my view

Downright not true. If you're drawing from the entire power of something, it will be expended the first time you release that much energy. To be amped by an object for prolonged periods of time, you'd need to be only drawing a small fraction of it at a time, like a battery, and that wouldn't scale to High 6-A.

I don't think you can really say this isn't true "objectively" like you are when fiction doesn't really care about that. And even if you wanted to say that's a copout, which is neither here nor there, keep in mind that the High 6-A value comes from a unit of power, AKA that's how much it's putting out every second. So no, it wouldn't all be expended, because it'll keep putting out that level of energy

Besides, no, it would not "naturally" become your full power, it's a magic item with zero realism to it, there's nothing "natural" to anything regarding it. How do you know the transition of power is a 1-to-1 thing, and that he can even draw 100% of the power to begin with? We don't know how it works besides "it can be used to power up people". If there's statements of such, sure, but nothing like that has been posted.

Intuitively I'm at least used to that becoming the new full power, unless outright said otherwise. At least with the verses I've scaled, that's intuitively been my line of thinking - that if you draw power from something, its power becomes your new full power

I guess that's just how it is for me?

Side Note: You really can't talk about it being a magic item with zero realism when earlier in your same response you tried to apply realistic constraints to it

 

[Chariot190]

Third, I'd imagine if it was the power of all of the stars, it'd be something like "power of the stars" (because that's more clearly indicate all of them). This is especially the case considering there are multiple Crystal Stars.

No like, been looking into it, it actually does say that.

It's the entire night sky's luminosity to be exact (they make it pretty explicit it's the light of the stars in raw), but you need to divide by 7 because it's spread between all 7.

Fourth, when you're drawing on its power for your strength, its full power is naturally gonna become your full power

That do be a caveat, they're basically charged batteries. They have a limited source of a power within them. While they ARE ridiculously strong, it isn't like they're a static power source that always grants a certain level of power. They contain a chunk of energy, and dudes siphon off it to empower themselves. But it isn't like the energy grows back or anything, it would need to be refilled.

Which is where we come to a fucky.
They're probably WAY the **** beyond High 6-A, at minimum it'd be like thousands of times (then divided by 7), but in turn dudes evidently don't use all the power at a single moment per attack, if they did it'd suck the thing dry so....

Idk, do with that as you will, I'm still not done given there's a lot of yap to go through and it's all japanese which like, not exactly my main language.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Most looks fine to me, but I commented on Clover's Conductor Connector calc to bring something up.

 

[CharlesZaGreat]

I agree with most of this, High 6-A works

 

[Dust_Collector]

uh there's 8 pages of this and I'm kinda tired atm, can we get the rundown of the current arguments for and against High 6-A?

 

[Dalesean027]

uh there's 8 pages of this and I'm kinda tired atm, can we get the rundown of the current arguments for and against High 6-A?

Not necessarily arguments against but instead wanting more consistent feats on the level to get behind it 100%

The only thing argued for 4 pages was Star Rod scaling which is rejected because that goes against the actual entire narrative of the game the scaling was brought up for and was essentially just game mechanics.

Right now its gather more feats as support to get it approved

 

[Parzival-Bo]

Right now its gather more feats as support to get it approved

Understood. I'm still playing through Brothership, so if I find anything else in there I'll let you all know.

 

[ShakeResounding]

The only thing argued for 4 pages was Star Rod scaling which is rejected because that goes against the actual entire narrative of the game the scaling was brought up for and was essentially just game mechanics.

This. About half of the thread is a debate on a single topic, and I feel I've done a decent job at keeping people informed in the OP.

 

[AStrangeverse]

bump

 

[ShakeResounding]

Trying to get another feat calculated, hence my lack of bumps to avoid boosting the page count more.

Also, I've updated OP to note that Pages 3 - 7 are almost entirely Star Rod talk for any new coming staff.

 

[OrangeFR]

Did anyone calc the big Bob-omb explosion in the opening cutscene of Mario Power tennis? I don’t think it will be Tier 6 or anything but might be a nice tier 7 supporting feat. (I looked at the list of AP calcs on the verse page and found nothing about it)
Edit: Ok nvm It was in the durability section