WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revision/Upgrade! (M&L Brothership Spoilers)

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why wouldn't we just go with the lowest interpretation? Instead of just, completely ignoring the feat?

 

[Chariot190]

Hiding the outlier yadda. Like yeah it could be 6-A (or even 6-B), or it could be 5-B, 5-A, 5-C, High 5-A, low 4-C, hell I mean technically speaking it could probably even get above star lv depending on speed and the temp shift.

Using it as support for the lowest stuff, is just assuming the feat in question is that level and calling it a ay. What if the statement is actually a 4-C statement? How does that support 6-A?

It only acts as support if you use the lowest possible interpretation, but if we were arguing Mario was 5-B instead, would it be ok to use that statement as support there too because in theory it COULD be a 5-B feat too?

It's just arbitrarily picking an end out of literally trillions and going "it COULD be this so it's support", it's not at all solid.

there's better stuff to cling to anyway, ice feats suck to scale

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hiding the outlier yadda. Like yeah it could be 6-A (or even 6-B), or it could be 5-B, 5-A, 5-C, High 5-A, low 4-C, hell I mean technically speaking it could probably even get above star lv depending on speed and the temp shift.

Using it as support for the lowest stuff, is just assuming the feat in question is that level and calling it a ay. What if the statement is actually a 4-C statement? How does that support 6-A?

It only acts as support if you use the lowest possible interpretation, but if we were arguing Mario was 5-B instead, would it be ok to use that statement as support there too because in theory it COULD be a 5-B feat too?

It's just arbitrarily picking an end out of literally trillions and going "it COULD be this so it's support", it's not at all solid.

there's better stuff to cling to anyway, ice feats suck to scale

isnt the point is because there's a bunch of unknown variable and such that we use the lowest one..?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Hiding the outlier yadda. Like yeah it could be 6-A (or even 6-B), or it could be 5-B, 5-A, 5-C, High 5-A, low 4-C, hell I mean technically speaking it could probably even get above star lv depending on speed and the temp shift.

Using it as support for the lowest stuff, is just assuming the feat in question is that level and calling it a ay. What if the statement is actually a 4-C statement? How does that support 6-A?

It only acts as support if you use the lowest possible interpretation, but if we were arguing Mario was 5-B instead, would it be ok to use that statement as support there too because in theory it COULD be a 5-B feat too?

It's just arbitrarily picking an end out of literally trillions and going "it COULD be this so it's support", it's not at all solid.

there's better stuff to cling to anyway, ice feats suck to scale

The Wonder Flower feat ins't being used as a support for the High 6-A proposal, though

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Thing is, we always go with the low-end when feats are vague, this happens in like practically every verse I know? We don't disregard surface wipe statements cause those feats can reach 5-A with KE and as such become an outlier for High 6-A, no?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Thing is, we always go with the low-end when feats are vague, this happens in like practically every verse I know? We don't disregard surface wipe statements cause those feats can reach 5-A with KE and as such become an outlier for High 6-A, no?

I think tossing away something altogether that's clearly a pretty good feat or statement just because "well it could be higher than the low end who knows" is very reductive and generally goes against how things are done on the wiki.

 

[Chariot190]

isnt the point is because there's a bunch of unknown variable and such that we use the lowest one..?

That shit don't work when the gap is like 100000000000x any it can realistically be ANY of those and just going with the lowest possible interpretation and acting like it's legitimate support is just cherry picking a end to suit one's needs. Like you didn't answer the question, if instead of 6-A, we were arguing 5-B, would it suddenly be a supporting feat for 5-B because it could be that level as well?

The lowest possible interpretation isn't support for High 6-A anyway, it's like a hundred times lower so it's just a weird one off standalone "feat" if you assume the lowest possible means.

Thing is, we always go with the low-end when feats are vague, this happens in like practically every verse I know? We don't disregard surface wipe statements cause those feats can reach 5-A with KE and as such become an outlier for High 6-A, no?

We actually do. A surface wipe statement has a general ballpark it's going to be in, after a certain point it's no longer surface wiping.
But that only works even then if we have info like timeframe, singular attack, etc.

If someone just said they could surface wipe without elaborating, we wouldn't do shit because even a supersonic 8-C could raze the planet if given the chance.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

We actually do. A surface wipe statement has a general ballpark it's going to be in, after a certain point it's no longer surface wiping.
But that only works even then if we have info like timeframe, singular attack, etc.

If someone just said they could surface wipe without elaborating, we wouldn't do shit because even a supersonic 8-C could raze the planet if given the chance.

Dont think questioning timeframe really works here either since it would have to freeze the sun fast enough in order to not just get melted while it's happening. Singular attack or not dunno

 

[Chariot190]

Dont think questioning timeframe really works here either since it would have to freeze the sun fast enough in order to not just get melted while it's happening. Singular attack or not dunno

You realize that in itself is a huge range right? It could be half a second, or it could literally take like a few dozen million years.
And that isn't even me being hyperbolic, the minimum timeframe would be about that. What needs to be outpaced is the sun's radiative processes and nuclear fusion, the ice flower ig in this context would be cooling it faster than the Sun generates heat and radiates it. The sun's big heat energy of ten fucktrillion joules (idk i forget the exact value, i just copied it off google and did the math), would makes the process long af, leading to a minimum timeframe of around 30-40 million years. But you also need to remember, the cooling continuously offsets the Sun’s heat production and radiation. The freezing outpaces thawing because the heat removal surpasses the Sun's natural energy replenishment through nuclear fusion and radiative loss, it's basically a net-loss thing, if we're talking the BARE minimum needed to simply outpace the sun's ability to thaw itself, while freezing it over, it would literally be something dumb like 40 million years due to the scale of the sun itself. that's the tldr but like, you get me dude.

But that's JUST the minimum based on your own argument.
The very fact the ice is cold enough to freeze millions of degrees hot plasma means thawing that shit out, ain't even a concern really if we're being realistic, I doubt the intent behind the statement was "it'll take like a million years lmao".

Which also brings into question the temperature shift, in order to freeze the core the temp drop would need to be nearly -273c, almost AZ, but if that's how cold the Ice Flower is, the freezing the outer layers of a sun would be piss easy in theory? But freezing the outer layers would also inversely effect the sun's own radiative energy and fusion processes as halfassedly explained above right? So that's a whole other can of worms.

I could go on, you really don't get how ass and or how dumb this feat could be, the actual science behind it is obnoxious af i looked into a bit for metroid

There's no less than 5 variable factors to the statement in question, each one working as a sliding scale, effecting each other, and thus the result.

 

[TartaChocholate]

We don't have tier 7 Plat despite the existence of like 3-4 feats on that scale that could be argued to scale if you squint when they have like 200 feats around 8-C with some of the higher ones taking effort for good reason.

Ah, ya. I legit didn't know that regarding Jojo. And come to think about it, given this answer is coming from you, Zelda also has some pretty measured tiering all things considered. Also, you and Dust also wanted to give it a go with FFVII Remake, but then I butted in being stupid and killed the mood >_>;

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah, ya. I legit didn't know that regarding Jojo. And come to think about it, given this answer is coming from you, Zelda also has some pretty measured tiering all things considered. Also, you and Dust also wanted to give it a go with FFVII Remake, but then I butted in being stupid and killed the mood >_>;

Oh so you killed the mood huh? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

I agree with High 6-A myself, and in my opinion should be valid to use, though it’s not like my peasant tier vote is substantial in the end lmao

 

[Armorchompy]

I brought different evidence up two posts above you than what was brought up before.

And I don't really agree with it. Mario can at best scratch through Bowser's defense with his strongest attack but still never really standing a chance to win before Bowser even utilizes his full power, at which point he's 100% invincible, that's not really evidence for scaling.

Shouldn't you just take the lowest end then?

That's pretty disingenuous when the lowest end just so happens to support what is currently being pushed for and no other interpretation of the feat does. Anyways I honestly don't really see a reason for "freezing a star" to be assumed to just be the surface, that Metroid calc was used for a pretty specific context where that was stated to be the case. Normally if you froze the surface of a star that'd just be melted away in seconds, the insides are pretty hot too.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That's pretty disingenuous when the lowest end just so happens to support what is currently being pushed for and no other interpretation of the feat does. Anyways I honestly don't really see a reason for "freezing a star" to be assumed to just be the surface, that Metroid calc was used for a pretty specific context where that was stated to be the case. Normally if you froze the surface of a star that'd just be melted away in seconds, the insides are pretty hot too.

I guess freezing the entirety makes more sense. But with how mario is currently treated on the wiki that'd just be an outlier so rip.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Well, realistically, what made freezing the Sun High 6-A was that it was only a portion (iirc only the surface), so realistically it likely couldn't be that end.

Is there nobody to check the validity of the Low 4-C sun-freeze calc? Might be years old but afaik ArbitraryNumbers used to be either a CGM or administrator. Could be worth evaluating (unless there are glaring errors I'm unaware of).

Anyways, updated the OP with the current tally.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I wholeheartedly agree with this. It's pretty crazy something so blatant and inoffensive as this has as much scrutiny as it does.

Yeah let's just ignore feats guys.

 

[Mephistus]

And I don't really agree with it. Mario can at best scratch through Bowser's defense with his strongest attack but still never really standing a chance to win before Bowser even utilizes his full power, at which point he's 100% invincible, that's not really evidence for scaling.

What there says it's a scratch? It's no different than hitting any other enemy and wincing in pain or any different animation than when you hit Bowser before he pulls out the star rod.
You can do the final attack with Mario or a partner to break the barrier entirely and make him flee regardless in the first phase. This, a long with not getting pushed over and fainting in a single hit or somesuch by the star rods attacks / his physical star rod amped strength like in the battle when he kidnaps peach. Bowser fighting Mario prior to fleeing to the power platform IS the full power of the star rod, he amd his partners clearly outmatched him.

 

[Armorchompy]

What there says it's a scratch? It's no different than hitting any other enemy and wincing in pain or any different animation than when you hit Bowser before he pulls out the star rod.
You can do the final attack with Mario or a partner to break the barrier entirely and make him flee regardless in the first phase. This, a long with not getting pushed over and fainting in a single hit or somesuch by the star rods attacks / his physical star rod amped strength like in the battle when he kidnaps peach. Bowser fighting Mario prior to fleeing to the power platform IS the full power of the star rod, he amd his partners clearly outmatched him.

He literally says that he isn't using the Star Rod's power as its fullest outright, and the second he begins to Mario is no longer capable of hurting him. I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding something but this seems really straightforward.

 

[JJSliderman]

Doesn’t he have to use the power platform to get to that level (which is an amp)

 

[Armorchompy]

To my understanding he's just using the platform in the first phase, or at least not going all out with the Rod. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense for him to be capable of buffing himself even further.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I assume the calc is meant for the Star Rod's AP (Mario can tank its attacks pretty sure), not the Invincibility it gives Bowser.

 

[JJSliderman]

To my understanding he's just using the platform in the first phase, or at least not going all out with the Rod. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense for him to be capable of buffing himself even further.

He doesn’t use the platform at first, that’s the phase Mario can overcome the rod without the star beam, then he uses the platform to amp himself so Mario needs Peach Beam to overcome the star rod.

 

[Armorchompy]

I assume the calc is meant for the Star Rod's AP (Mario can tank its attacks pretty sure), not the Invincibility it gives Bowser.

But there's no reason to assume it can buff him to its level of power if we know for a fact that there's a huge gap between how much AP and Durability it can give him. The Star Rod's own feat is completely dissimilar from statistics amplification so it's not like you can say "oh they're both AP so they're equal, Durability just upscales", that's just not something you can assume without further evidence, it's already an assumption to say something like that happens by default but when there's outright proof that it can't just boost his stats equally that's much worse.

He doesn’t use the platform at first, that’s the phase Mario can overcome the rod without the star beam, then he uses the platform to amp himself so Mario needs Peach Beam to overcome the star rod.

He does use the platform.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But there's no reason to assume it can buff him to its level of power if we know for a fact that there's a huge gap between how much AP and Durability it can give him. The Star Rod's own feat is completely dissimilar from statistics amplification so it's not like you can say "oh they're both AP so they're equal, Durability just upscales", that's just not something you can assume without further evidence, it's already an assumption to say something like that happens by default but when there's outright proof that it can't just boost his stats equally that's much worse.

I just don't take the invincibility as a durability amp, more like ya know, Invulnerability?

 

[Yasuda_144]

He does use the platform.

You're talking about a completely different fight; the one being referred to is what speedrunners call "Hallway Bowser", which as its name implies takes place in the same hallway the prologue fight did; this is the one where you can damage Bowser even through his Star Rod amp, and the only reason you can't in the second is that the Star Rod itself is also amped by the platform, to the point where the Star Spirits needed to be empowered by the wishes of the Mushroom Kingdom residents just to be able to counteract it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Bump.

So is there a situation in which Mario would scale/downscale (either in AP or Dura) to the High 6-A+ Star Rod then? Seems to be some confusion regarding the fights

 

[ShakeResounding]

Okay, so, turns out trying to get some Mario feats calced is a b!tch when you have primitive verse knowledge lol

I'm waiting for one to be calced to see if it can be applied here as well since people are dragging their feet here.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I’ve been lurking the thread basically since it began, and I just wanted to say I agree with using Feat 2 but am iffy on the other two* due to the reasons already given by others (I know my opinion doesn’t matter much especially at this point, but figured I should make it clear before involving myself with anything else).

*In regards to the Shadow Queen feat, if we don’t get an upgraded base cast then I presume she’ll still become High 6-C?

So is there a situation in which Mario would scale/downscale (either in AP or Dura) to the High 6-A+ Star Rod then? Seems to be some confusion regarding the fights

Based on my understanding Bowser with just the Star Rod is just really durable and “nearly invincible” (iirc that’s what Goombario’s Tattle says), whereas Bowser with both the Star Rod and the power platform is completely invincible. I figure it should be fair to downscale base cast from the Star Rod considering they can take hits from amped Bowser and deal damage to him with strong enough attacks.

Perhaps we could at worst scale base cast to 1/7th of the Star Rod, considering how it can be nullified by all seven Star Spirits and Mario is relative to a single one? Idk if that logic flies and I also feel they should be closer to it than just 1/7th, but that feels like a reasonable enough lowball if needed.

 

[OrangeFR]

I agree that we could scale base Mario to the Star Rod via taking hits from its power

 

[ShakeResounding]

*In regards to the Shadow Queen feat, if we don’t get an upgraded base cast then I presume she’ll still become High 6-C?

I believe so, doesn't seem contradictory and it's within the range of even the current 6-C stats.

Based on my understanding Bowser with just the Star Rod is just really durable and “nearly invincible” (iirc that’s what Goombario’s Tattle says), whereas Bowser with both the Star Rod and the power platform is completely invincible. I figure it should be fair to downscale base cast from the Star Rod considering they can take hits from amped Bowser and deal damage to him with strong enough attacks.

Ah, thank you for the explanation here. I think downscaling is reasonable, but I suppose we'll see if that's acceptable.

Perhaps we could at worst scale base cast to 1/7th of the Star Rod, considering how it can be nullified by all seven Star Spirits and Mario is relative to a single one? Idk if that logic flies and I also feel they should be closer to it than just 1/7th, but that feels like a reasonable enough lowball if needed.

Mario is comparable to a single one? That seems promising, though again, I'm not too knowledgeable on the context.

• AP: Multi-Continent level (Can harm Bowser as he wields the Star Rod, who was described as "nearly invincible" prior to the Power Platform, although he is inferior. Relative to a Star Spirit, seven of whom being able to cancel out the Star Rod's power. Comparable to Luigi, who can fling a cord and connect it to a nearby satellite that produces this much energy)"
• Dura: Multi-Continent level (Able to withstand attacks from Bowser as he wields the Star Rod, and can withstand attacks from a Star Spirit)
  • 1/7th of the Star Rod's calc is 2.66320677411 Exatons.

I assume something of this caliber is what you're going for?

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Mario is comparable to a single one? That seems promising, though again, I'm not too knowledgeable on the context.

Yeah, Mario can call upon the Star Spirits to do certain things, and one of them uses a 7 damage move that hits all enemies. Bosses in Paper Mario can have up to 99 HP (Bowser in particular has 50 HP), so I see no reason why the base cast shouldn’t scale to a Star Spirit. Again I personally feel they should be closer to the Star Rod’s power (tbh I wonder if they should just outright scale to it considering Bowser’s own power added on would make him superior by default), but 1/7th feels fair if others deem it a better option. It also puts the cast closer to the Brothership feat so that might be a good selling point too.

• "Multi-Continent level(Scales to 1/7th of the Star Rod's power, being relative to a singular Star Spirit compared to the seven needed to power it. Comparable to Luigi, who can fling a cord and connect it to a nearby satellite that produces this much energy)"
  • 1/7th of the Star Rod's calc is 2.66320677411 Exatons.

I assume something of this caliber is what you're going for?

Pretty much yeah, though a minor correction is that the Star Spirits can nullify its power rather than being able to power it themselves. I don’t recall them being able to power it themselves, though tbf I’m running off pretty rudimentary knowledge of Paper Mario 64 and know basically nothing about Mario Party so it’s possible I might be off on that.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Pretty much yeah, though a minor correction is that the Star Spirits can nullify its power rather than being able to power it themselves. I don’t recall them being able to power it themselves, though tbf I’m running off pretty rudimentary knowledge of Paper Mario 64 and know basically nothing about Mario Party so it’s possible I might be off on that.

And this wouldn't just be Power Nullification? What's the context of nullifying it's power that leads you to think we can equate a single Star Spirit to 1/7th of the SR's power?

 

[Chariot190]

Okay, so, turns out trying to get some Mario feats calced is a b!tch when you have primitive verse knowledge lol

I'm waiting for one to be calced to see if it can be applied here as well since people are dragging their feet here.

DM feats

 

[ShakeResounding]

Much appreciated, I'll try to start gathering some later today.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

And this wouldn't just be Power Nullification? What's the context of nullifying it's power that leads you to think we can equate a single Star Spirit to 1/7th of the SR's power?

I figured since it takes all seven Star Spirits to nullify it, that you could argue they’d be at least 1/7th of its power. If that isn’t how that kind of thing works in regards to Power Null then my B. It was only supposed to be a suggestion of a lowball in case others felt it was a better option, as personally I feel they should be closer to its power than that (not sure exactly how much closer though).

 

[IDK3465]

I know I’m kinda late to this thread but I felt like I should give my thoughts on it:

While I get where Armorchompy and others are coming from with the shear quantity of anti-feats there are, I honestly don’t think that High 6-A is as ridiculous as they’re making it out to be.

Yes, while Luigi’s feat is technically far above the other showings in the verse, I want everyone to remember we’re talking about MARIO here. This series has had several insane showings over the years bordering on nigh cosmic levels of power. When I look at this feat, I don’t go “erm actually, Luigi’s 200,000 times weaker than this” or, “he can easily be harmed by a 9-B explosion,” I’m thinking, “holy shit, Luigi just threw a power outlet into an electric meteor and yoinked it back!”

While you can get into the nitty gritty about how much of a jump in power it’ll be or how the cast has struggled against stuff far weaker than this; thematically and in its intent, there’s no fundamental difference between Luigi throwing a wire across space or DK punching the moon, they’re just f**king strong.

 

[IDK3465]

*I should note that I’m not in favor of bringing back the 3-C ratings, putting everyone on that level would just fully throw off the sense of scale most Mario games tend to have and I ultimately think that the downgrade was the right call.


What I’m not for however is completely ignoring any kind of decent upgrade for anyone simply because “anti-feats lol” as if we applied that kind of scrutiny to everything else, like 99% of characters would be brought down to tier 8 or 9 or even lower.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the record I haven't replied cause I haven't had the time to check that other Bowser fight. That said if those other feats Shake mentioned do end up supporting High 6-A I won't mind the upgrade. I don't personally agree with it but if it has an actual solid basis it's ok