Vergil vs Goku

[Dragomer]

I don't see why it would be fallacious at all.
In fact I wanted to make a thread on this a while ago, because there's zero rule that we assume that because a person's actions are contradicted, we assume it's the best course

Is there a rule for this?

I don't think so but as far as i saw, the general stand is 'if we don't have at least solid indication of it in more than one instance, we consider they can't do it'.

Honestly i don't really have an opinion either way on that, i was just following the general mindset i'v seen on that subject.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

First nothing prove that, second it doesn't matter if it's faster if it's a wound Virgil can't regen from, regen from being disemboweled doesn't mean you can regen from being bisected.

He literally got cut in half when he was weakened and way weaker than this key, and guess what? He insta regenerated.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except the attack where he's quite obviously moving around and constantly attacking in DMC3, or the use of JC pretty instantaneously in that other video Die gave.

So no, since you have provided nothing beyond "but that's not proven!". Especially when the delay is only drawing his sword out the smallest amount and suddenly slashes from all over in a specific area. Yeah, no, Goku is not reacting because of that.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I don't see why it would be fallacious at all.

In fact I wanted to make a thread on this a while ago, because there's zero rule that we assume that because a person's actions are contradicted, we assume it's the best course

Is there a rule for this?

It's not really a rule, it's just logic. If Character A has been shown to do Action A every time they do a specific move, then saying that Action is what they have to do to use the move has a basis and is understandable. Saying that they don't need to do any actions at all or that they can do a different action to activate it wouldn't have any basis or founding for it to be considered.

 

[Dragomer]

First nothing prove that, second it doesn't matter if it's faster if it's a wound Virgil can't regen from, regen from being disemboweled doesn't mean you can regen from being bisected.

He literally got cut in half when he was weakened and way weaker than this key, and guess what? He insta regenerated.

Not on his profile, make a CRT to upgrade his regen.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Except the attack where he's quite obviously moving around and constantly attacking in DMC3, or the use of JC pretty instantaneously in that other video Die gave.

So no, since you have provided nothing beyond "but that's not proven!". Especially when the delay is only drawing his sword out the smallest amount and suddenly slashes from all over in a specific area. Yeah, no, Goku is not reacting because of that.

Is there more to it besides him cutting off Arkham's arm? I just watched that part because that was where the timestamp led.

Again, that's not where the time stamp led.

 

[Dragomer]

Except the attack where he's quite obviously moving around and constantly attacking in DMC3, or the use of JC pretty instantaneously in that other video Die gave.
So no, since you have provided nothing beyond "but that's not proven!". Especially when the delay is only drawing his sword out the smallest amount and suddenly slashes from all over in a specific area. Yeah, no, Goku is not reacting because of that.

You mean said attack where he is moving around to slash around while being invisible ? something that has nothing to do with JC ?

< pretty instantaneously

< still does the pose, the scream and the slashing and still has a delay between that and the attack actualy doing anything.

You're just trying to bring back point i already addressed.

Nope, i made clear argument multiple time against each and everyone of those argument, not my fault if your very video prove it for me and has every single instance of JC being with Virgil being immobile.

flame appear on the blade, Virgil scream, get in his drawing position, draw his sword, slash, sheath his sword and a few instant later the attack only begin to appear

Yeah, no, Goku is totaly out of the way long before that if he didn't just dust Virgil already.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Mid covers that...

Also, you can look at the video I linked a hundred posti ago, look the final battle between brothers.

 

[Dragomer]

Mid covers that...
Also, you can look at the video I linked a hundred posti ago, look the final battle between brothers.

Mid also cover people who can just regen from headshot, that's like everything, you have degree within a single tier.

His regen say 'comparable to Dante who regenerated from being disembowled', nothing else, it doesn't even note any feat of Virgil himself.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Oh, there was a different video than the one I saw. Well, the range on that was pretty small (like right in front of him) and they start 4km apart by SBA.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Since you can't even look for a video that was linked a hundred posts ago I will link it again.

https://youtu.be/2MPPLrePwBU

There, go to 1:30:00 and see from that point onwards.

I'm leaving this, tired of this useless back and forth.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

You saying it has nothing to do with JC doesn't make it true, nor saying a point you addressed which wasn't actually addressed.

So no, until I see you come with some other justification beyond what you've said, my vote remains the same.

 

[Dragomer]

Since you can't even look for a video that was linked a hundred posts ago I will link it again.
https://youtu.be/2MPPLrePwBU

There, go to 1:30:00 and see from that point onwards.

I'm leaving this, tired of this useless back and forth.

I don't care about the video, if it's not acknowledged on his profile, it was dismissed as an outlier or whatever for all i know, make CRT if you really think it should be on his profile but in the meantime i don't see why it should count, just like Goku can be seen as having spatial manipulation resistance from his fight against Hit and yet, since it's not on his profile, no one bring it up.

 

[Dragomer]

You saying it has nothing to do with JC doesn't make it true, nor saying a point you addressed which wasn't actually addressed.
So no, until I see you come with some other justification beyond what you've said, my vote remains the same.

Yes, good thing the video make it true for me then.

And yes, i addressed it multiple time.

Why should i come up with another way to debunk it when i already did it with another debunk ?

I like how basicaly all the Virgil side can do is vote for the one single scenario where Virgil can even have a chance to harm Goku while completly ignoring that litteraly every single action Goku would take would result in Virgil being dusted and having no way to resist it.

The best the Virgil side has is a reason for it to not be a complete stomp in Goku's favor by giving one win condition for Virgil and act like it mean Virgil actualy legit win.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I honestly find hilarious, and not in the actually funny way, that you seem to imply I think in anyway Goku doesn't pulverize in one hit. Feel free to ignore how I was the one to question Schnee if Goku wouldn't just turn him into dust, I don't care enough at this point.

 

[Dragomer]

I honestly find hilarious, and not in the actually funny way, that you seem to imply I think in anyway Goku doesn't pulverize in one hit. Feel free to ignore how I was the one to question Schnee if Goku wouldn't just turn him into dust, I don't care enough at this point.

There is no way to find something hilarious 'not in the actualy funny way'.

Just like you ignored the multiple time i addressed the very point you brought up ? also i never implied that, i'm just pointing out the sillyness of voting in favor of Virgil just because he has a win condition while litteraly everything else end up with him dusted.

 

[Anttron224]

It's supposed to be condescending I believe, as in he isn't humored as much as he is unimpressed or something is laughably false.

 

[Dragomer]

It's supposed to be condescending I believe, as in he isn't humored as much as he is unimpressed or something is laughably false.

Condescension has nothing to do with hilarious stuff though.

And something that is laughably false is still funny so i don't get what 'hilarious but not in a funny way' is supposed to mean, it's not like there is another way for hilarious to be.

 

[Schnee_One]

You two have literally devolved from debating who wins to insulting

Both of you need to grow up and calm down.

 

[Dragomer]

You two have literally devolved from debating who wins to insulting
Both of you need to grow up and calm down.

Sorry but i see no insults here, if calling a mindset or a reasoning 'silly' is an insult for you, you're the one who need to grow up honestly.

 

[Schnee_One]

Calling someone "hilarious" and talking down to them is absolutely an insult, what is silly is telling someone they need to grow up because they're trying to shut the situation down.

If you don't like how people are acting, you don't have to debate, believe me, I get it, it's obnoxious, but not enough to where you can't tell the other person to just calm down and not mean any harm.

I apologize if I was a bit blunt, but calm down.

 

[MYHERO]

There is an uncomfortable amount of tension lurking in this thread. Let's all take it down a notch, or at the very least take a small break before it gets any worse.

 

[Schnee_One]

^Messiah

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Since you can't even look for a video that was linked a hundred posts ago I will link it again.
https://youtu.be/2MPPLrePwBU

There, go to 1:30:00 and see from that point onwards.

I'm leaving this, tired of this useless back and forth.

I don't care about the video, if it's not acknowledged on his profile, it was dismissed as an outlier or whatever for all i know, make CRT if you really think it should be on his profile but in the meantime i don't see why it should count, just like Goku can be seen as having spatial manipulation resistance from his fight against Hit and yet, since it's not on his profile, no one bring it up.

The video is in his profile

 

[Dragomer]

Since you can't even look for a video that was linked a hundred posts ago I will link it again.
https://youtu.be/2MPPLrePwBU

There, go to 1:30:00 and see from that point onwards.

I'm leaving this, tired of this useless back and forth.

I don't care about the video, if it's not acknowledged on his profile, it was dismissed as an outlier or whatever for all i know, make CRT if you really think it should be on his profile but in the meantime i don't see why it should count, just like Goku can be seen as having spatial manipulation resistance from his fight against Hit and yet, since it's not on his profile, no one bring it up.

The video is in his profile

If those are the same video, then he was straight up lying cause Vergil doesn't get cut in half at all in the video on his profile, he just get gutted, as the profile itself say.

 

[Anttron224]

I apologize if I contributed to any conflict in this thread, I was just trying to offer insight.

 

[Schnee_One]

You apologized, it's fine

 

[AKM sama]

Think Goku would do something like this if Vergil straight up charged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VExF6TC_yVc&t=2m15s

 

[Paul_Frank]

The sides of yamato would be safe to grab

And this key of goku isn't a jobber

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm sorry but Goku stomps. He is Massively FTL+. He scales so high above 3-A it isn't even funny. He can sense Vergil's every movement with Ki sensing. He can tear open holes in space-time with a simple pulse of Ki. He can bind Vergil with his God Bind, a paralytic technique, and he can use telekinesis if need be. He also has access to Kiai, which is an invisible burst of energy that is extremely difficult to detect.

You can argue that Goku would hold back at first, sure, but Goku doesn't usually hold back against opponents that are too weak to be a challenge or can't evolve enough over the course of battle. Once he sees what Vergil is capable of he will just blitz Vergil and one shot.

I sincerely don't see how Vergil could win this. If it were BoG SSG Goku this would be a much better matchup and would likely be in Vergil's favour.

 

[Dienomite22]

Uhh, speed is equalized

 

[Ted_Ed]

Goku is more skilled and stronger.

So my vote goes to him.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Uhh, speed is equalized

Speed equalised doesn't even change anything. Goku has such a high AP and control over his energy that he could blink Vergil into dust, and that's certainly not an exaggeration with Jiren existing. That doesn't even get into the level of Danmaku that Goku is capable of using, the Kamehameha, Hexa Disc and, not to mention, Instant Transmission (which can potentially act as a semi-BFR). That actually raises an interesting question, could Yamato enable Vergil to, say, go from an alien world to Earth? Or is it limited to dimensional travel?

Hell, I know the key says 'Highest 3-A' but would that mean Post-ToP SSG Goku or ToP SSB Goku (Pre-UIO2)? Would Kaio-Ken even be factored as a 'key' or would Goku be allowed to stack X20 on-top of SSB, assuming his highest 3-A is actually SSB? Is there even a ruling that states Goku can't go X20 in SSG due to it being basically the same as SSB?

 

[Dragomer]

Uhh, speed is equalized

Speed equalised doesn't even change anything. Goku has such a high AP and control over his energy that he could blink Vergil into dust, and that's certainly not an exaggeration with Jiren existing. That doesn't even get into the level of Danmaku that Goku is capable of using, the Kamehameha, Hexa Disc and, not to mention, Instant Transmission (which can potentially act as a semi-BFR). That actually raises an interesting question, could Yamato enable Vergil to, say, go from an alien world to Earth? Or is it limited to dimensional travel?
Hell, I know the key says 'Highest 3-A' but would that mean Post-ToP SSG Goku or ToP SSB Goku (Pre-UIO2)? Would Kaio-Ken even be factored as a 'key' or would Goku be allowed to stack X20 on-top of SSB, assuming his highest 3-A is actually SSB? Is there even a ruling that states Goku can't go X20 in SSG due to it being basically the same as SSB?

Actualy Goku now has 'BFR' on his profile through IT, so it's counted as at least limited BFR here.

It does not really allow for dimensional travel in the sense he'd fly, move or teleport there, it's more like the vice shout where he just cut the barrier / dimensional wall and just walk through opening he made and that's pretty limited given he had to do the whole tower thing in DMC3 to get to the barrier he needed to cut to go to the demon dimension thingie.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, so I can easily picture Goku potentially teleporting Vergil to an alien planet. To my memory he just needs to sense their ki, right? and Goku can actually sense from Beerus' palace all the way to the edge of the universe, Earth. He has also sensed and warped across entire dimensions (King Kai).

 

[Blueblur24]

In all honest vergil does have resistence to bfr and can also create portals to get back to goku.

 

[Blueblur24]

He also has resistance to precognition. So i don't think goku will be able ro sence his every move so easily.

 

[Dienomite22]

Uhh, speed is equalized

Speed equalised doesn't even change anything. Goku has such a high AP and control over his energy that he could blink Vergil into dust, and that's certainly not an exaggeration with Jiren existing. That doesn't even get into the level of Danmaku that Goku is capable of using, the Kamehameha, Hexa Disc and, not to mention, Instant Transmission (which can potentially act as a semi-BFR). That actually raises an interesting question, could Yamato enable Vergil to, say, go from an alien world to Earth? Or is it limited to dimensional travel?
Hell, I know the key says 'Highest 3-A' but would that mean Post-ToP SSG Goku or ToP SSB Goku (Pre-UIO2)? Would Kaio-Ken even be factored as a 'key' or would Goku be allowed to stack X20 on-top of SSB, assuming his highest 3-A is actually SSB? Is there even a ruling that states Goku can't go X20 in SSG due to it being basically the same as SSB?

Yes, Vergil can create portals to and from the underworld,he should be able to travel from planet to planet.

I think the OP rule would imply it's SSG X20.

To respond to your reply overall, Goku having that big of an AP difference doesn't mean Vergil just *poofs* out of existence in his mere presence otherwise most matchs of below universal hax character vs universal AP character would end the same (and the difference here isn't that large).Vergil needs only 1 strike on Goku in order to kill him, Goku also only needs 1 strike on Vergil to kill him and in character both are capable of 1 shotting right at the beginning.This is inconcluesive in my eyes.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I didn't refer to Vergil 'poofing' out of existence in his mere 'presence'. I said that Goku could stare Vergil out of existence with the ridiculous AP gap, which Jiren shows is a possibility.

I don't see Vergil winning, considering his Summoned Swords shouldn't be strong enough to warrant them even remotely injuring Goku. So it's entirely up to Yamato. Goku has the definite range advantage with even a simple ki blast killing Vergil in one blow. Goku should also be able to react to Vergil and blowing him away with Kiais.

Again, I don't see how Vergil is even meant to approach Goku. Goku has limitless choices here, due to his AP but Vergil is limited to trying to just teleport to Goku and killing him, which Goku can react to with a counter Kiai.

So this is based on whether or not Goku would recognize the danger of Vergil's Yamato. Goku, when focused, can fight on an equal level with Hit and dodge invisible, instant kill, shockwaves. So if Goku gets even remotely serious he will easily defeat Vergil with his AP, Paralysis, Kiai and Range.

If Goku doesn't get serious early, then maybe Vergil would win? But I don't recall Goku ever letting somebody seriously attack him in-character before, outside of a friendly spar. And every time he has fought or experienced a sword user he has blocked their slashes with a single finger or by pinching the blade.

To my understanding the Demon World and Human World actually have a thin barrier of existence between one another, which is why demons can go into the human world in the form of possessions, right? So would that really mean Vergil can create rifts to travel through solar systems?

 

[Dragomer]

In all honest vergil does have resistence to bfr and can also create portals to get back to goku.

No, he doesn't have resistance to BFR; he has his own BFR though and it's not how the portals he can open works.